Sale of Levin track

[nomates]

This has been mentioned recently on channel X and i didn't think it was serious , BUT , i was talking to someone yesterday who has more day to day connection than myself and apparently this is a goer .

What i was told was that there is a special members meeting to discuss joining Race and selling the Levin track , the word is they think they can get 30mil for the track . Levin is having a real building boom , there are a lot of building projects , big and smaller , happening in Levin at present , so i could see a developer being interested .

I would presume there is a lack of enthusiasm within the club to continue with the day to day operations , i have noticed that the J/O's are being run much less regularly than in bygone years . Getting people onto the committee for every club is becoming a tough proposition and perhaps that is a big driver .

Sad if it happens but racing in the CD really is on the decline , and most of the people i speak to who still have shares in horses are quite disillusioned with the game and the current direction or lack of it , and are seriously considering their future ownership prospects going forward .

A sad sign of the times .

[Doomed]

You can understand the club wanting to sell up. Why battle away and receive no thanks in a twilight industry? Sadly, you just know RACE will waste all the money. I see Otaki are becoming property developers.

Ideally they should sell up for $30m, pocket the money and run a $1m race every year at whichever track offers them the best deal.

[nomates]

9 minutes ago, Doomed said:

You can understand the club wanting to sell up. Why battle away and receive no thanks in a twilight industry? Sadly, you just know RACE will waste all the money. I see Otaki are becoming property developers.

Ideally they should sell up for $30m, pocket the money and run a $1m race every year at whichever track offers them the best deal.

I don't understand , and i would love to say why but some of the decisions taken have not helped themselves , but some stuff i simply can't repeat . Things like giving up their G1 to be run at Trentham was weak , IMO , the club just handed back 3 of their raceday licences because some on the committee couldn't be bothered . The club is in a financially strong position because of decision made many years ago .

To be strong club you need a robust and willing committee , unfortunately most clubs struggle to fill  a committee with enough of these types .

The Levin classic day , under whatever name , used to the years highlight , but it was allowed to die a slow death , what they have now is a pale shadow .

[Bloke]

2 hours ago, Doomed said:

You can understand the club wanting to sell up. Why battle away and receive no thanks in a twilight industry? Sadly, you just know RACE will waste all the money. I see Otaki are becoming property developers.

Ideally they should sell up for $30m, pocket the money and run a $1m race every year at whichever track offers them the best deal.

If Otaki is getting into property development than that will be a disaster as I doubt whether they have any expertise in this field.

They should look up the road at Awapuni  and note how they stuffed up a simple residential land development. 

I used to love The Bayer Classic at Levin it was a real season highlight. Unfortunately that was 40 odd years ago.

If Levin is going through a building boom then hopefully it may lead to the retail area of the town getting a face lift. Last time I was there I went to the Mall to meet an old racing buddy for a coffee and it was a shit hole.

[Reefton]

6 hours ago, nomates said:

I don't understand , and i would love to say why but some of the decisions taken have not helped themselves , but some stuff i simply can't repeat . Things like giving up their G1 to be run at Trentham was weak , IMO , the club just handed back 3 of their raceday licences because some on the committee couldn't be bothered . The club is in a financially strong position because of decision made many years ago .

To be strong club you need a robust and willing committee , unfortunately most clubs struggle to fill  a committee with enough of these types .

The Levin classic day , under whatever name , used to the years highlight , but it was allowed to die a slow death , what they have now is a pale shadow .

The tragedy is the committees, even in the big clubs, are rapidly losing enthusiasm and this just creates the opportunity for the easy way out to be taken.  I would think Levin were told if they sell their land they have to give it to Race otherwise NZTR would seize the proceeds(they have caveats on all Club properties under that Act so you can't sell swap lease subdivide or anything else without Code approval)

What the big Clubs do have is the high paid executives with plenty of time on their hands to woo smaller clubs into basically giving them the tracks and infrastructure to administer.  Years ago clearly the CJC did that with the North Canterbury Clubs and now has the Rangiora prize to squander.  No doubt Riccarton will have taken over admin of the Bank Peninsula asset and will eventually worm their way into ownership and the talk is they are headed the same way with Ashburton.  So the CJC slowly but surely ends up owning everything.  I should imagine the ATR deal was similar.  Counties committee losing interest and along come the Auckland CEO full of BS about how they would take over the running and what benefits would flow and so on.  If you have lost interest it is a nice way out  though if any of those Counties guys are Pukekohe retailers they might not be too impressed with being deprived of their biggest weekend of the year!

Committees cannot be blamed for it - like the owners trainers and punters they have been treated like mushrooms all the way and no wonder enthusiasm levels are rock bottom.  I know we are the piddly relation but that lack of initiative to participate afflicts us too - only thing we are far enough away that Riccarton will not be interested but it is significant that if they shut Timaru(a matter of time one feels) there will only be two racecourses north of the Waitaki in the south bar the three Coast courses.  To be fair we cling by a thread - one bad day/cancellation will just about see the Kumara committee wave the white flag out of frustration and Greymouth have major issues with their bridge onto the course which is going to be hard and expensive to fix(that is the escape route if it floods because the other exit would already be 2m under by the time an evacuate call is made).  If either of them two falter where does that leave us?  But anyway we are a pimple on the arse of the universe in terms of NZ racing but if it got down to only two venues north of the Waitaki???  

in an unexpected way the Messara recommendations are coming to fruition slowly but surely.   The big are gobbling up the small. Sad 

 

[Freda]

Sad indeed...especially when legislation to enable such 'seizures' was passed with not a whimper from anyone of significance.  I find that unbelievable in the 'democracy' we are supposed to live in.

Whereas across the ditch, for the most part, closing tracks [ especially provincial tracks ] isn't part of the design.  I read recently a snip about the latest plans for discussion from the BHA.

They recognise a raft of issues to mull over - stakes and field sizes for starters - but closing tracks is not one of them.

Thoughts, aired elsewhere, about running 5-6 day carnivals here as seen in the UK/Ireland, don't recognise or understand that those racecourses involved in such carnivals, have many tracks within their course.  So the same stretch of ground doesn't get hammered day after day.

That's one potent reason for retention of as many of our tracks as economically viable.  Market forces should be the reason for closure, not an arbitrary plan from an office.

If we look at the Coast [ because it is in my area, and has been topical ]  the four tracks have been deemed unnecessary by the experts who  completely fail to understand weather and overall topography.  While Greymouth has obligingly - and successfully - managed to run the Hokitika day since that club's closure, in the event of more typical Coast weather, that just would not be possible.

The same can be seen with recent abandonments, in the N.I, all blamed on the weather [ and that is fair enough up to a point ] which have been exacerbated by a lack of knowledge of possible weather patterns, and compounded by utter indifference to track upgrades and illogical programming.

In my home patch, we have seen the closure of Amberley, Rangiora, Geraldine,  Waimate, Motukarara - and a bit further afield, Marlborough, Nelson, Westport also.  I can add Hororata although that is a fair while ago and probably not significant now.   

Has it helped?  Is racing more vibrant in this area as a result?  Some will say, you are looking back, that isn't progress.  Maybe.   But change for the sake of change isn't particularly clever.  

And history teaches us much, if we want to look and take lessons from mistakes of the past.

 

[Chief Stipe]

55 minutes ago, Freda said:

Sad indeed...especially when legislation to enable such 'seizures' was passed with not a whimper from anyone of significance. 

Correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I'm aware the said legislation has not been used let alone tested.

[mikeynz]

1 hour ago, Freda said:

Sad indeed...especially when legislation to enable such 'seizures' was passed with not a whimper from anyone of significance.  I find that unbelievable in the 'democracy' we are supposed to live in.

Whereas across the ditch, for the most part, closing tracks [ especially provincial tracks ] isn't part of the design.  I read recently a snip about the latest plans for discussion from the BHA.

They recognise a raft of issues to mull over - stakes and field sizes for starters - but closing tracks is not one of them.

Thoughts, aired elsewhere, about running 5-6 day carnivals here as seen in the UK/Ireland, don't recognise or understand that those racecourses involved in such carnivals, have many tracks within their course.  So the same stretch of ground doesn't get hammered day after day.

That's one potent reason for retention of as many of our tracks as economically viable.  Market forces should be the reason for closure, not an arbitrary plan from an office.

If we look at the Coast [ because it is in my area, and has been topical ]  the four tracks have been deemed unnecessary by the experts who  completely fail to understand weather and overall topography.  While Greymouth has obligingly - and successfully - managed to run the Hokitika day since that club's closure, in the event of more typical Coast weather, that just would not be possible.

The same can be seen with recent abandonments, in the N.I, all blamed on the weather [ and that is fair enough up to a point ] which have been exacerbated by a lack of knowledge of possible weather patterns, and compounded by utter indifference to track upgrades and illogical programming.

In my home patch, we have seen the closure of Amberley, Rangiora, Geraldine,  Waimate, Motukarara - and a bit further afield, Marlborough, Nelson, Westport also.  I can add Hororata although that is a fair while ago and probably not significant now.   

Has it helped?  Is racing more vibrant in this area as a result?  Some will say, you are looking back, that isn't progress.  Maybe.   But change for the sake of change isn't particularly clever.  

And history teaches us much, if we want to look and take lessons from mistakes of the past.

 

 

9 hours ago, Reefton said:

The tragedy is the committees, even in the big clubs, are rapidly losing enthusiasm and this just creates the opportunity for the easy way out to be taken.  I would think Levin were told if they sell their land they have to give it to Race otherwise NZTR would seize the proceeds(they have caveats on all Club properties under that Act so you can't sell swap lease subdivide or anything else without Code approval)

What the big Clubs do have is the high paid executives with plenty of time on their hands to woo smaller clubs into basically giving them the tracks and infrastructure to administer.  Years ago clearly the CJC did that with the North Canterbury Clubs and now has the Rangiora prize to squander.  No doubt Riccarton will have taken over admin of the Bank Peninsula asset and will eventually worm their way into ownership and the talk is they are headed the same way with Ashburton.  So the CJC slowly but surely ends up owning everything.  I should imagine the ATR deal was similar.  Counties committee losing interest and along come the Auckland CEO full of BS about how they would take over the running and what benefits would flow and so on.  If you have lost interest it is a nice way out  though if any of those Counties guys are Pukekohe retailers they might not be too impressed with being deprived of their biggest weekend of the year!

Committees cannot be blamed for it - like the owners trainers and punters they have been treated like mushrooms all the way and no wonder enthusiasm levels are rock bottom.  I know we are the piddly relation but that lack of initiative to participate afflicts us too - only thing we are far enough away that Riccarton will not be interested but it is significant that if they shut Timaru(a matter of time one feels) there will only be two racecourses north of the Waitaki in the south bar the three Coast courses.  To be fair we cling by a thread - one bad day/cancellation will just about see the Kumara committee wave the white flag out of frustration and Greymouth have major issues with their bridge onto the course which is going to be hard and expensive to fix(that is the escape route if it floods because the other exit would already be 2m under by the time an evacuate call is made).  If either of them two falter where does that leave us?  But anyway we are a pimple on the arse of the universe in terms of NZ racing but if it got down to only two venues north of the Waitaki???  

in an unexpected way the Messara recommendations are coming to fruition slowly but surely.   The big are gobbling up the small. Sad 

 

Riccarton may have grandiose ideas about being the hub of racing but where will they run their meetings if there are no alternatives ?

Ashburton should tell them to get stuffed, Timaru the same, if Riccarton think they can beet the shit out of its track every second week from next week on then let them, but when they do major renovations as in shutting down for a extended time then these other clubs need to hold out for a better deal.

Be very interesting if the wet spell continued through September and October how Riccarton would shape up then.

Probably as it stands right now it would be debatable if there is any tracks  Oamaru north fit for racing on and that includes north of  Cook Strait.

[Doomed]

I can't add anything to what Reefton and Freda have so eloquently stated. What staggers me is the way a bunch of "no-names" have been able to destroy a massive industry in a relatively short period of time, with barely a whimper of objection. When their approach fails miserably they will just disappear into the sunset without a care in the world. They don't appear to be the types to fall on their swords when everything goes wrong.

[Chief Stipe]

1 minute ago, Doomed said:

What staggers me is the way a bunch of "no-names" have been able to destroy a massive industry in a relatively short period of time, with barely a whimper of objection.

Purely driven by self-interest.  It hasn't helped that many of those with real skin in the game are aged and tired.  They are in the dream phase rather than the vision phase of life and regale stories of past.

Let's face it if you were a young person with a passion racing horses and a talent you'd pack your kitbag and head West.  Sadly those young people are becoming fewer and fewer on the ground.  Why?  We've closed all the provincial entry points to the industry.  

[Doomed]

10 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Purely driven by self-interest.  It hasn't helped that many of those with real skin in the game are aged and tired.  They are in the dream phase rather than the vision phase of life and regale stories of past.

Let's face it if you were a young person with a passion racing horses and a talent you'd pack your kitbag and head West.  Sadly those young people are becoming fewer and fewer on the ground.  Why?  We've closed all the provincial entry points to the industry.  

I'm struggling to think of any other industry/sport that has implouded so badly. Even rugby for all its problems begrudingly accepts it still needs a provincial presence.

[Reefton]

2 hours ago, Freda said:

Sad indeed...especially when legislation to enable such 'seizures' was passed with not a whimper from anyone of significance.  I find that unbelievable in the 'democracy' we are supposed to live in.

Whereas across the ditch, for the most part, closing tracks [ especially provincial tracks ] isn't part of the design.  I read recently a snip about the latest plans for discussion from the BHA.

They recognise a raft of issues to mull over - stakes and field sizes for starters - but closing tracks is not one of them.

Thoughts, aired elsewhere, about running 5-6 day carnivals here as seen in the UK/Ireland, don't recognise or understand that those racecourses involved in such carnivals, have many tracks within their course.  So the same stretch of ground doesn't get hammered day after day.

That's one potent reason for retention of as many of our tracks as economically viable.  Market forces should be the reason for closure, not an arbitrary plan from an office.

If we look at the Coast [ because it is in my area, and has been topical ]  the four tracks have been deemed unnecessary by the experts who  completely fail to understand weather and overall topography.  While Greymouth has obligingly - and successfully - managed to run the Hokitika day since that club's closure, in the event of more typical Coast weather, that just would not be possible.

The same can be seen with recent abandonments, in the N.I, all blamed on the weather [ and that is fair enough up to a point ] which have been exacerbated by a lack of knowledge of possible weather patterns, and compounded by utter indifference to track upgrades and illogical programming.

In my home patch, we have seen the closure of Amberley, Rangiora, Geraldine,  Waimate, Motukarara - and a bit further afield, Marlborough, Nelson, Westport also.  I can add Hororata although that is a fair while ago and probably not significant now.   

Has it helped?  Is racing more vibrant in this area as a result?  Some will say, you are looking back, that isn't progress.  Maybe.   But change for the sake of change isn't particularly clever.  

And history teaches us much, if we want to look and take lessons from mistakes of the past.

 

You make a lot of very good points Pam but the corporate culture pervading NZ Racing now is not interested in anything other than the big city venues.  I always said market forces would let clubs know when it was time to chuck the towel in and probably the lack of active and enthusiastic participants on committees(a pretty thankless job to be fair) is an example of market forces.  But that issue afflicts the rugby clubs and the golf clubs and the school committees and tons of other voluntary organisations.  Even the Trusts set up to administer the likes of Waterlea will find it tough to recruit Board members.  Fraught with risk and no real job satisfaction(and no thanks either - likely to be some social media poster telling you the demise of the industry is all your fault)

[Reefton]

43 minutes ago, mikeynz said:

 

Riccarton may have grandiose ideas about being the hub of racing but where will they run their meetings if there are no alternatives ?

Ashburton should tell them to get stuffed, Timaru the same, if Riccarton think they can beet the shit out of its track every second week from next week on then let them, but when they do major renovations as in shutting down for a extended time then these other clubs need to hold out for a better deal.

Be very interesting if the wet spell continued through September and October how Riccarton would shape up then.

Probably as it stands right now it would be debatable if there is any tracks  Oamaru north fit for racing on and that includes north of  Cook Strait.

The problem is Ashburton (I would assume) nobody with the enthusiasm to tell them to get stuffed Mike.  I am not pissing in my own pocket but if I hadn't attacked Saundry verbally at Omoto that day and in our submission we would be gone too.  I even think he begrudgingly respected that(he certainly greeted me with a smile afterwards)

Riccarton will just use the AWT if their grass track gets hammered.  After all the NZ public gave it to them.

[Reefton]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I'm aware the said legislation has not been used let alone tested.

Does being a dick come naturally to you or do you have to work at it?

Ask Richard Alspach

[mikeynz]

6 minutes ago, Reefton said:

 

Riccarton will just use the AWT if their grass track gets hammered.  After all the NZ public gave it to them.

 If they did major renovations, cant see it but ive been wrong before.

[Reefton]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Purely driven by self-interest.  It hasn't helped that many of those with real skin in the game are aged and tired.  They are in the dream phase rather than the vision phase of life and regale stories of past.

Let's face it if you were a young person with a passion racing horses and a talent you'd pack your kitbag and head West.  Sadly those young people are becoming fewer and fewer on the ground.  Why?  We've closed all the provincial entry points to the industry.  

so what are you doing to help the plight of the industry?

[Doomed]

2 minutes ago, Reefton said:

so what are you doing to help the plight of the industry?

He is hosting this site, which at least gives people some opportunity to express their dissatisfaction. Without it I suspect NZTR would probably think the industry is 100% in favour of NZTR's actions.

[nomates]

11 hours ago, Reefton said:

The tragedy is the committees, even in the big clubs, are rapidly losing enthusiasm and this just creates the opportunity for the easy way out to be taken.  I would think Levin were told if they sell their land they have to give it to Race otherwise NZTR would seize the proceeds(they have caveats on all Club properties under that Act so you can't sell swap lease subdivide or anything else without Code approval)

What the big Clubs do have is the high paid executives with plenty of time on their hands to woo smaller clubs into basically giving them the tracks and infrastructure to administer.  Years ago clearly the CJC did that with the North Canterbury Clubs and now has the Rangiora prize to squander.  No doubt Riccarton will have taken over admin of the Bank Peninsula asset and will eventually worm their way into ownership and the talk is they are headed the same way with Ashburton.  So the CJC slowly but surely ends up owning everything.  I should imagine the ATR deal was similar.  Counties committee losing interest and along come the Auckland CEO full of BS about how they would take over the running and what benefits would flow and so on.  If you have lost interest it is a nice way out  though if any of those Counties guys are Pukekohe retailers they might not be too impressed with being deprived of their biggest weekend of the year!

Committees cannot be blamed for it - like the owners trainers and punters they have been treated like mushrooms all the way and no wonder enthusiasm levels are rock bottom.  I know we are the piddly relation but that lack of initiative to participate afflicts us too - only thing we are far enough away that Riccarton will not be interested but it is significant that if they shut Timaru(a matter of time one feels) there will only be two racecourses north of the Waitaki in the south bar the three Coast courses.  To be fair we cling by a thread - one bad day/cancellation will just about see the Kumara committee wave the white flag out of frustration and Greymouth have major issues with their bridge onto the course which is going to be hard and expensive to fix(that is the escape route if it floods because the other exit would already be 2m under by the time an evacuate call is made).  If either of them two falter where does that leave us?  But anyway we are a pimple on the arse of the universe in terms of NZ racing but if it got down to only two venues north of the Waitaki???  

in an unexpected way the Messara recommendations are coming to fruition slowly but surely.   The big are gobbling up the small. Sad 

 

Agree with much of that Reefton , the Levin situation is interesting , if you drive to the track it has a big sign saying it is run by the " Levin Track Trust " , now i don't know enough about the legalities around it but surely if it is in a trust NZTR can't touch it but others can put me straight . Now my understanding is that this is being done willingly , i know the strength of the committee is not as strong as it has been and maybe it is dying a natural death . A great windfall for Race if they do get anywhere near the figure i was told .

As for Pukekohe i don't know anything about how their position has come about other than what we read but they have had plenty of help trying to rectify their track issues , so whether it is due to a lack of interest or a willing decision i don't know , my feeling is that with Auckland being NZ's biggest city it makes sense for the clubs to come under one umbrella , i think you have mentioned that you guys on the coast could hold a much stronger position if you all batted on the same team but some feel they are better than others , i maybe incorrect in my memory .

As for the Messara recommendations they are coming to fruition thru natural attrition , something that NZTR could have done purely by putting standards in place for clubs to have race licences , tough standards around tracks and turnover , KPI's for want of a better word , and then the strong survive and the weak die . Then there wouldn't be so much of this ill will that is in racing now .

[Reefton]

7 minutes ago, nomates said:

Agree with much of that Reefton , the Levin situation is interesting , if you drive to the track it has a big sign saying it is run by the " Levin Track Trust " , now i don't know enough about the legalities around it but surely if it is in a trust NZTR can't touch it but others can put me straight . Now my understanding is that this is being done willingly , i know the strength of the committee is not as strong as it has been and maybe it is dying a natural death . A great windfall for Race if they do get anywhere near the figure i was told .

As for Pukekohe i don't know anything about how their position has come about other than what we read but they have had plenty of help trying to rectify their track issues , so whether it is due to a lack of interest or a willing decision i don't know , my feeling is that with Auckland being NZ's biggest city it makes sense for the clubs to come under one umbrella , i think you have mentioned that you guys on the coast could hold a much stronger position if you all batted on the same team but some feel they are better than others , i maybe incorrect in my memory .

As for the Messara recommendations they are coming to fruition thru natural attrition , something that NZTR could have done purely by putting standards in place for clubs to have race licences , tough standards around tracks and turnover , KPI's for want of a better word , and then the strong survive and the weak die . Then there wouldn't be so much of this ill will that is in racing now .

All fair comment.  Messara has been creeping in slowly but surely via the back door

In our case we are pretty agreeable now but lack the firepower enthusiasm and ability wise to do anything more than tread water.  If those standards had been set in place we would all have been out the door immediately BUT there would have been one or two metro clubs that would have battled to meet the standards as well

 

[Reefton]

46 minutes ago, Doomed said:

He is hosting this site, which at least gives people some opportunity to express their dissatisfaction. Without it I suspect NZTR would probably think the industry is 100% in favour of NZTR's actions.

I can see what a big difference it is making(not!)

[Freda]

10 minutes ago, Reefton said:

All fair comment.  Messara has been creeping in slowly but surely via the back door

In our case we are pretty agreeable now but lack the firepower enthusiasm and ability wise to do anything more than tread water.  If those standards had been set in place we would all have been out the door immediately BUT there would have been one or two metro clubs that would have battled to meet the standards as well

 

More than one or two I should think.

[Chief Stipe]

52 minutes ago, Reefton said:

I can see what a big difference it is making(not!)

You'd be surprised @Reefton who reads this site.  Over its short life there have been some not insignificant issues resolved through engagement both on the public side and the private communication side.

 

[Huey]

1 hour ago, nomates said:

Agree with much of that Reefton , the Levin situation is interesting , if you drive to the track it has a big sign saying it is run by the " Levin Track Trust " , now i don't know enough about the legalities around it but surely if it is in a trust NZTR can't touch it but others can put me straight . Now my understanding is that this is being done willingly , i know the strength of the committee is not as strong as it has been and maybe it is dying a natural death . A great windfall for Race if they do get anywhere near the figure i was told .

As for Pukekohe i don't know anything about how their position has come about other than what we read but they have had plenty of help trying to rectify their track issues , so whether it is due to a lack of interest or a willing decision i don't know , my feeling 

As for the Messara recommendations they are coming to fruition thru natural attrition , something that NZTR could have done purely by putting standards in place for clubs to have race licences , tough standards around tracks and turnover , KPI's for want of a better word , and then the strong survive and the weak die . Then there wouldn't be so much of this ill will that is in racing now .

I think NZTR would have put standards in place if they could have, but they knew as well as many the standards would have most likely illuminated the incompetence at the wrong venues for their narrative. 

In my view the Venue Plan of BS has done the most harm to the industry,  even more so than the M report, many are too blind to see it, but in time it will also impact on the sustainability of the favoured venues.

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Reefton said:

so what are you doing to help the plight of the industry?

I've done my bit.  But I've said it before and I'll say it again much of what is being reaped now was sown by self-interest and apathy. 

[Reefton]

6 minutes ago, Huey said:

I think NZTR would have put standards in place if they could have, but they knew as well as many the standards would have most likely illuminated the incompetence at the wrong venues for their narrative. 

In my view the Venue Plan of BS has done the most harm to the industry,  even more so than the M report, many are too blind to see it, but in time it will also impact on the sustainability of the favoured venues.

Yeah I just wonder if we can cling like the proverbial to a blanket it might be a last man standing situation for the Coast clubs.  But then again I suppose if they shut down most of the country clubs there will probably not be the horses available to participate at what is left.