What’s the Point? Franklin Cup?

[Brodie]

$50,000 and 4 starters?

Racing in the North has to be in a dire situation when Auckland can only provide the Franklin Cup 4 starters and race for $50k!

Copy That surely will win it and doubt too many would be betting against it sinning!

It will without doubt not engender enough money on it to make it profitable and you would wonder who decided that they had to run it?

Happy New Year to everyone, and if you are out and about tonight, be careful as there will be CHECKPOINTS out there!

[Gammalite]

What's the Point is your question? Well it's a feature race mate. You Have to have feature races. It's part of the prestige, and tradition of the sport. something you aspire too as an owner. (maybe you've never been an owner)

Of Course we could have ho-hum drab affairs with low prize money and poor form horses. everyday blah racing like Brissy has lol....

BUT Much better to see your Best Horses go round ? Copy That a dual NZ Cup Winner . well worth seeing. Naturally far too good for all-comers and he has scared them off. Too bad for them .

If the 3 opponents tonight work well togeather , they are a sporting chance to win, with the 3 second start on the champ . (but still highly unlikely to hold him out) . I'll be watching for Sure !!!! get some enthuasiam going old mate.

And of course they should race for $50k ! what did you want? cheapskate it at 10k or something? there are sponsers you know.The  Miracle mile races for $1,000,000. Doubt they will cancel it because the betting is only a small fraction of that. Run your Feature Races and Enjoy !!!!!!!!!!!!  happy New Year.

 

[Michael]

1 minute ago, Gammalite said:

What's the Point is your question? Well it's a feature race mate. You Have to have feature races. It's part of the prestige, and tradition of the sport. something you aspire too as an owner. (maybe you've never been an owner)

Of Course we could have ho-hum drab affairs with low prize money and poor form horses. everyday blah racing like Brissy has lol....

BUT Much better to see your Best Horses go round ? Copy That a dual NZ Cup Winner . well worth seeing. Naturally far too good for all-comers and he has scared them off. Too bad for them .

If the 3 opponents tonight work well togeather , they are a sporting chance to win, with the 3 second start on the champ . (but still highly unlikely to hold him out) . I'll be watching for Sure !!!! get some enthuasiam going old mate.

And of course they should race for $50k ! what did you want? cheapskate it at 10k or something? there are sponsers you know.The  Miracle mile races for $1,000,000. Doubt they will cancel it because the betting is only a small fraction of that. Run your Feature Races and Enjoy !!!!!!!!!!!!  happy New Year.

 

I get your point Gammalite

It's a bit like being a solo parent with 2 kids

Because it's Christmas they should all eat ham and pavlova (not together)

And we won't worry that in 2 weeks time there's no money left and they'll have to sleep in a tent and forage for food

That sums your attitude up

 

[Gammalite]

2 minutes ago, Michael said:

That sums your attitude up

What ? is it a poor attitude ? to enjoy feature races ? Must be guilty then.

My 2 kids turned up ok thanks, for Christmas and I did turkey , rumballs and Backyard cricket as usual. Is that a problem ?? should I have cancelled it because only 10 starters? was a pretty good day (and I ran at a loss too) 

Sorry my attitude worried you. Hope you had a great Christmas day too. (and can 'somehow' enjoy Franklin Cup in the fine traditions of a grand sport. 🏆🏇 

[Michael]

43 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

What ? is it a poor attitude ? to enjoy feature races ? Must be guilty then.

My 2 kids turned up ok thanks, for Christmas and I did turkey , rumballs and Backyard cricket as usual. Is that a problem ?? should I have cancelled it because only 10 starters? was a pretty good day (and I ran at a loss too) 

Sorry my attitude worried you. Hope you had a great Christmas day too. (and can 'somehow' enjoy Franklin Cup in the fine traditions of a grand sport. 🏆🏇 

It's not a poor attitude, it's more a case of you not really worrying about the future of our sport (if indeed, we have one)

It's no problem to me what your kids ate on Christmas Day

An analogy is wasted on you

Your attitude doesn't annoy me at all, I realise you're Australian so I make an allowance for that

 

[Rangatira]

1 hour ago, Michael said:

And we won't worry that in 2 weeks time there's no money left and they'll have to sleep in a tent

Outside Ballantynes is a great spot if in Christchurch even if you don't have a tent.

[Rangatira]

19 minutes ago, Michael said:

Your attitude doesn't annoy me at all, I realise you're Australian so I make an allowance for that

Aussies, no surprises there

[Doomed]

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

What ? is it a poor attitude ? to enjoy feature races ? Must be guilty then.

My 2 kids turned up ok thanks, for Christmas and I did turkey , rumballs and Backyard cricket as usual. Is that a problem ?? should I have cancelled it because only 10 starters? was a pretty good day (and I ran at a loss too) 

Sorry my attitude worried you. Hope you had a great Christmas day too. (and can 'somehow' enjoy Franklin Cup in the fine traditions of a grand sport. 🏆🏇 

I think you have largely missed Brodie's and Michael's point. The industry can't really afford $50,000 for 4 horse fields with a hot fav and virtually no betting. And Group II, really? That is just taking the piss. Surely it will be downgraded next season, although given that they dish group status out like something from a weetbix packet in Harness racing, who knows what will happen.

I suspect that they have backed themselves into a corner by tossing another $100,000 in that Race thing, and inventing a $100,000 Invercargill Cup. To dump some existing races now might not be a good look, but who knows, I don't understand their decision making at all.

[Gammalite]

26 minutes ago, Michael said:

It's not a poor attitude, it's more a case of you not really worrying about the future of our sport (if indeed, we have one)

hahahahaha cancel the race you all say . well Thats a good future???  Then there's NOTHING  . No Cup winner going around tonight .  No wonder you're going under in Nz with your harness racing. 

you need sponsers for racing. And the Aussies like Chris Garrard (from here in Brissy) are keeping the industry afloat in Nz as it is. Gives millions of the Horse and Hound money to keep the game going (yes i know it's a business decision) but it is an Aussie helping you guys out . start picking on Aussies is a poor cop-out mate.

I don't need you to tell me what to worry about thank you very much. I've put forward plenty of ideas on this forum and others that would save the museum, save the Franklin training establishment and much more. Of Course they All will come to nothing as just no-one there Pro-Active enough to do ANything About It. just keep grizzling.

 

 

[Mikie]

5 hours ago, Doomed said:

I think you have largely missed Brodie's and Michael's point. The industry can't really afford $50,000 for 4 horse fields with a hot fav and virtually no betting. And Group II, really? That is just taking the piss. Surely it will be downgraded next season, although given that they dish group status out like something from a weetbix packet in Harness racing, who knows what will happen.

I suspect that they have backed themselves into a corner by tossing another $100,000 in that Race thing, and inventing a $100,000 Invercargill Cup. To dump some existing races now might not be a good look, but who knows, I don't understand their decision making at all.

Finally, an intelligent poster joins BOAY

[Mikie]

5 hours ago, Gammalite said:

hahahahaha cancel the race you all say . well Thats a good future???  Then there's NOTHING  . No Cup winner going around tonight .  No wonder you're going under in Nz with your harness racing. 

you need sponsers for racing. And the Aussies like Chris Garrard (from here in Brissy) are keeping the industry afloat in Nz as it is. Gives millions of the Horse and Hound money to keep the game going (yes i know it's a business decision) but it is an Aussie helping you guys out . start picking on Aussies is a poor cop-out mate.

I don't need you to tell me what to worry about thank you very much. I've put forward plenty of ideas on this forum and others that would save the museum, save the Franklin training establishment and much more. Of Course they All will come to nothing as just no-one there Pro-Active enough to do ANything About It. just keep grizzling.

 

 

I didn't realise you were so wonderful

So keep telling us

[Brodie]

7 hours ago, Gammalite said:

hahahahaha cancel the race you all say . well Thats a good future???  Then there's NOTHING  . No Cup winner going around tonight .  No wonder you're going under in Nz with your harness racing. 

you need sponsers for racing. And the Aussies like Chris Garrard (from here in Brissy) are keeping the industry afloat in Nz as it is. Gives millions of the Horse and Hound money to keep the game going (yes i know it's a business decision) but it is an Aussie helping you guys out . start picking on Aussies is a poor cop-out mate.

I don't need you to tell me what to worry about thank you very much. I've put forward plenty of ideas on this forum and others that would save the museum, save the Franklin training establishment and much more. Of Course they All will come to nothing as just no-one there Pro-Active enough to do ANything About It. just keep grizzling.

 

 

Gamma, you are generally very positive towards harness racing and that is always 👍.

However the point we are making is that harness racing in NZ is struggling on many fronts.

The reality is that it is just about impossible to attract new punters and owners to get involved which is problematic big time for the future of racing!

Yes we need group racing and good stakes to try and retain our tighter class horses.

However there is no logic or financial reason as I see it to deliberately lose money from the coffers.

4 horses, 50k and basically a certainty unless it gallops is not a positive for a group race unfortunately.

Unless we can have positive change occurring due to decisions being made then harness will continue to decline from a once great industry.

Oz racing will continue as you have the population and enough horses partly due to the horses being imported from NZ.

[Rangatira]

1 hour ago, Brodie said:

Gamma, you are generally very positive towards harness racing and that is always 👍.

Aaron very very positive towards Copy That almost to the extent appears to forget he is the race commentator

[Gammalite]

1 hour ago, Rangatira said:

Aaron very very positive towards Copy That almost to the extent appears to forget he is the race commentator

Yes he made a bit of a meal of the result at the finish. Calling Copy That the winner. Pretty game effort off 30m then ended up 50m off the pace after half a lap though. Not often they call the wrong horse these days in the Photo finish

 

3 hours ago, Brodie said:

Gamma, you are generally very positive towards harness racing and that is always 👍.

However the point we are making is that harness racing in NZ is struggling on many fronts.

Thanks Brodster. for your kind words. Yeah i did my grass roots training in Nz , like many of the great Nz horse's that still cross the Tasman each year. So it hurts to see the declining industry in a place i am very fond of. The truth hurts. and always try to see an option to save the 'wreck' ...

a/ Perhaps the museum (in danger of being demolished)  could set up alongside the Racing museum next door at the showgrounds ? there were buildings there for lease , I saw the ad here. That would help save the museum and give the racing club somewhere as well right alongside.

b/ Kevin Seymour is a Multi millionaire Property developer / and standardbred fanatic here in Brisbane. The ATC should pay him a million and he would be full of ideas to save Alex park and sort out the developement rubbish that happened.  

c/ Keep the feature races going for as high a prize money possible. Don't lose any more horses to Australia. Mach Shard, Star Gallaria, The Honey Queen and co (many many others)  racing here is rediculous when still owned by kiwis. they need the same prize money and type of races there so the Owners can see them race each week. 

d/ support guys like Michael House that will load a meeting with horses, for lots of different owners, and at small clubs level too. The guy is a gem.

e/ Get the Hughie Green trust involved , mega rich benefactors like John Green can solve a lot of the problems you talk about. you need a few millionaires to run the show. Chris Garrard helps bucketloads for example.

f/ Don't forget that only 15% of horses return a profit . People do it for fun (own, train and drive ) most of the time. so stop worrying about returning a profit . It's money spent on their Leisure and Fun activity. They're not busting a gut to win money. Most just love their horses and try and get a win where/when if the chance arises. 

g/ Support your Feature races. They're important. Sorry i didn't agree with the thread lead . just one of those things i think is important. No prestige = No interest. and would be boring like Brisbane harness racing lol.....

h/ Michael is wrong to accuse me of not being worried for the future of harness racing. You guys are pointing out some of the failings . I'm happy to offer a few solutions .I guess you get shot down for that.

i/ Happy New year mate(s) 4 hours to go here , one hour there .have a good one 

[Blackie]

Hi Gamma, Happy New Year.

I , like you, are the eternal optimist, but for about the last 10 years I’ve been watching the slow decline of an industry I love, wether it be bad management, financial considerations, social norms becoming abnormal, a decrease in foal numbers( big one), all the above is intrinsically linked to one another, and if all involved don’t have the confidence, it’s all got the feel of a sunset industry.
People, and I mean everyone involved, have sat on their hands and let it ride. 
Those in charge haven’t the kahoona’s to make the really tough calls, Winston Peters gave us a chance(God bless, a Racing Minister on our side, here’s 70 m to pay off your debt), but has largely been ignored and we have blissfully spiralled into the mire. 

There is something seriously wrong when we race today for about the same stake money 30 odd years ago.

Oh for a Peter V’Landys, who makes calls for the good of the game, rather than trying to make friends. An overseer who runs things like a business, it’s not personal, unlike us who seem to employ the same tired people over & over again.

And Gamma, maybe you too are part of the problem, good folk relocating like good horses, or I tend to think it was more foresight on your part 😇, much like all the good folk that have moved to where they see a future.

[the galah]

You can't but help compare the decision to run that race last nightfor $50,000 and only 4 runnersand next to no turnover,with that of the decision to cancel 3 upcoming meetings in canterbury in may.

In one instant you supply the stake for 1 race in which 4 benefit,or in the other you supply the stake for 5 or 6 races in which you would have approxiametly 60 horses connections benefit. The type of connections and trainers and drivers who battle to continue to participate. 

And of course the turnover from running the 5 or 6 races would far exceed a 4 horse race.

So those who made the decision to run last nights race again showed they care more about a handful of owners/trainers/drivers than they do about the grassroots participants.

decisions like that are why optimism is at such a low. Those who made the decision to run that race last night simply prioritised those who have the financial resources over those that don't and struggle to keep going.

What type of message does that send. And yet they wonder why people are giving up or not breeding.

Theres part of your answer.

Edited December 31, 2022 by the galah

[Gammalite]

7 minutes ago, the galah said:

You can't but help compare the decision to run that race last nightfor $50,000 and only 4 runnersand next to no turnover,with that of the decision to cancel 3 upcoming meetings in canterbury in may.

In one instant you supply the stake for 1 race in which 4 benefit,or in the other you supply the stake for 5 or 6 races in which you would have approxiametly 60 horses connections benefit. The type of connections and trainers and drivers who battle to continue to participate. 

And of course the turnover from running the 5 or 6 races would far exceed a 4 horse race.

So those who made the decision to run last nights race again showed they care more about a handful of owners/trainers/drivers than they do about the grassroots participants.

decisions like that are why optimism is at such a low. Those who made the decision to run that race last night simply prioritised those who have the financial resources over those that don't.

 

Prize money is allocated for races. It's Not the Clubs fault that the race had just 4 starters. You still need to run the race. (unless a loan is taken out to supply the prizemoney - which I doubt would ever happen) 

Whatever happened to the Franklin Trotting Club anyway ? they and Thames TC used to race often at Alex Park when I was there. Did all their members just sign up with Auckland Trotting Club instead? (ATC ran last nights meeting) 

The ATC club put the race on, so that makes your comment about them 'Caring' for a handful of participants very FALSE in my opinion. If they 'didn't' run the race , that would be the case of only caring for grass roots participants.

You Really need to cater for Everyone Still involved. or they'll go to Oz. Leading trainers Dunn's even race their own horse out of NSW and he only came back once for The RACE at Cambridge past 3 years. That says a lot to me . 

[Gammalite]

34 minutes ago, the galah said:

decisions like that are why optimism is at such a low. Those who made the decision to run that race last night simply prioritised those who have the financial resources over those that don't and struggle to keep going.

What type of message does that send. And yet they wonder why people are giving up or not breeding

Optimism at a new high Mr Galah !! The breeders have seen that Copy That can be beaten with a fair handicap afterall. They'll be feeling like breeding the next Alta Wiseguy to beat him ??.

However, You have often mentioned a critical point that is imperitive in keeping the 'game' going. And that is supplying training facilities for the budding young Trainers to use and race out of. Surely , surely surely surely those at Auckland that are trying to Sell Off the Franklin Training Centre realise that will be a Fatal Blow to new trainers coming in . They need to Strongly Look at the Menangle model of Club supplied barns that house some of the best trainers in Aus like Grimson (winner of last 2 Interdominions)  and young kiwi Jack Trainor  etc. 

FFS Auckland Trotting club , DON't SELL IT OFF for real estate. Build It up (the Franklin centre at Pukekohe) for Young Trainers like Grimson and Trainor . It is the ONLY hope you have of survival .....

[Nowornever]

10 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Yes he made a bit of a meal of the result at the finish. Calling Copy That the winner. Pretty game effort off 30m then ended up 50m off the pace after half a lap though. Not often they call the wrong horse these days in the Photo finish

He quite often gets third and fourth the wrong way around in a tight finish but usually pretty good with the winner. The hype got him this time.

[the galah]

So

 

4 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Prize money is allocated for races. It's Not the Clubs fault that the race had just 4 starters. You still need to run the race. (unless a loan is taken out to supply the prizemoney - which I doubt would ever happen) 

Whatever happened to the Franklin Trotting Club anyway ? they and Thames TC used to race often at Alex Park when I was there. Did all their members just sign up with Auckland Trotting Club instead? (ATC ran last nights meeting) 

The ATC club put the race on, so that makes your comment about them 'Caring' for a handful of participants very FALSE in my opinion. If they 'didn't' run the race , that would be the case of only caring for grass roots participants.

You Really need to cater for Everyone Still involved. or they'll go to Oz. Leading trainers Dunn's even race their own horse out of NSW and he only came back once for The RACE at Cambridge past 3 years. That says a lot to me . 

So you seem to be saying the atc fully fund the group 2 race,and that hrnz make no contribution?

Pretty sure your wrong.

So my comments are not false. I would say it is yours that are .

Perhaps read the articles during the week about whether hrnz would contribute funds to a 4 horse race and whether they would allow it to be run...

Even if we agree that the atc fully fund the race,which i don't,then you would be arguing that a club that is on the brink of not being able to continue because of their finances and are selling most of their assets,that they should run a 4 horse race that gets no betting.if that were the case then most would just shake their heads in disbelief that they never learn.You also have said they shouldn't sell off their land. How could you say they should run that race then say that.

Also.Why if they really were that desperate to deplete their bank balance even more,then why not run a $20,000 race. Anyone with any sense would have been able to predict that the connections of horses a couple of levels below copy that would not line up when he was given only a 30m handicap.

Edited January 1, 2023 by the galah

[the galah]

5 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Optimism at a new high Mr Galah !! The breeders have seen that Copy That can be beaten with a fair handicap afterall. They'll be feeling like breeding the next Alta Wiseguy to beat him ??.

However, You have often mentioned a critical point that is imperitive in keeping the 'game' going. And that is supplying training facilities for the budding young Trainers to use and race out of. Surely , surely surely surely those at Auckland that are trying to Sell Off the Franklin Training Centre realise that will be a Fatal Blow to new trainers coming in . They need to Strongly Look at the Menangle model of Club supplied barns that house some of the best trainers in Aus like Grimson (winner of last 2 Interdominions)  and young kiwi Jack Trainor  etc. 

FFS Auckland Trotting club , DON't SELL IT OFF for real estate. Build It up (the Franklin centre at Pukekohe) for Young Trainers like Grimson and Trainor . It is the ONLY hope you have of survival .....

i think you are thinking like most of us used to about the ATC.

We used to look at how it was managed and think they should be the leaders in new initiatives to keep harness racing viable and relevant in the north island.

Unfortunately they have proven they weren't too bright,and no matter how good ideas like you have suggested above are,in reality they can't afford it anymore,and have to make decisions based on reality and not wishful thinking. Perhaps if they had implemented some of your previous ideas to promote harness racing they would not be where they are today.But they didn't,and no longer can.

[Chief Stipe]

Was the ATC's plan the wrong plan or just poorly executed?

[Brodie]

6 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Was the ATC's plan the wrong plan or just poorly executed?

Right plan if they had done their homework!

 

[Chief Stipe]

On 31/12/2022 at 5:04 PM, Mikie said:

Finally, an intelligent poster joins BOAY

Is that an admission of yourself?

[Michael]

On 1/1/2023 at 7:04 AM, Blackie said:

Hi Gamma, Happy New Year.

I , like you, are the eternal optimist, but for about the last 10 years I’ve been watching the slow decline of an industry I love, wether it be bad management, financial considerations, social norms becoming abnormal, a decrease in foal numbers( big one), all the above is intrinsically linked to one another, and if all involved don’t have the confidence, it’s all got the feel of a sunset industry.
People, and I mean everyone involved, have sat on their hands and let it ride. 
Those in charge haven’t the kahoona’s to make the really tough calls, Winston Peters gave us a chance(God bless, a Racing Minister on our side, here’s 70 m to pay off your debt), but has largely been ignored and we have blissfully spiralled into the mire. 

There is something seriously wrong when we race today for about the same stake money 30 odd years ago.

Oh for a Peter V’Landys, who makes calls for the good of the game, rather than trying to make friends. An overseer who runs things like a business, it’s not personal, unlike us who seem to employ the same tired people over & over again.

And Gamma, maybe you too are part of the problem, good folk relocating like good horses, or I tend to think it was more foresight on your part 😇, much like all the good folk that have moved to where they see a future.

Spot on Mr Blackie