the galah

But as i have pointed out many times,if you look at the tote pools held by the likes of tabcorp,your wrong when you say more quality horses means higher turnover. I've given the figures many times and its pretty clear cut that turnover generated is not connected to quality,its all about exposure and timeslots. So in reality no one sector of the industry is more valuable than the other when it comes to generating turnover. I've given so many examples recently. The only way,in my opinion,to combine quality with higher turnover from australia would be to run the high quality races in the high exposure timeslots.

reminds me of that joan rivers quote. She said...the other day i noticed a peeping tom looking through my window. as i undressed the peeper pulled the blinds.... or something like that.

I'm guessing entain or sky or whoever ,who are behind the new graphics would have spent a bit of money,done their research and would have taken feedback from pilot audiences of punters before they made the changes.thats my guess. They won't be like the nz tab were,when they came up with the disastrous new webiste a few years ago.

Was timaru a good track to run a wednesday meeting at this time a year? The reason i ask that is because i would have thought the idea of these wednesday meetings is to maximise turnover,especially the extra turnover that they get when races are held in time slots where people in australia have just finished work. Same does apply in nz as well,but the betting turnovers in australia can be significantly different depending on what time they are run. So wouldn't it make more sense to run them at addington where they can run at the best time slots given they can turn the lights on if necessary. A wednesday meeting at timaru makes morse sense when the daylight hours are longer and they can run a twilight meeting. thats my thoughts anyway.

personally i like the changes and the colours. Much easier on the eye. Also entain to be congragulated for making trackside available on freeview. Hopefully that means if we go to a motel then we will be able to watch trackside now. That was always a big problem previously. I guess the..no place fixed odds anymore..comes under "the dividends displayed reflecting the popularity of products" that entain referred to in their press release.They hadn't been showing the tote place odds for a year or two anyway. I can see why, if you like to place bet, you could be a little frustrated,but if your betting you would see them at the terminal you were using to put a bet on. Not showing the place dividends on ff probably more of a drawback if you were on course. I suppose they will have to provide tv screens with them on for on course patrons. If you look at any of the betting pools,the win pools generally are 3-5x more win than is in the place pools. Not quite so in nz,but certainly with australia pools. Overall i think the changes made are good.

If we were 3 horses,we would stubbornly be fighting it out to the very finish. I will always think that his drive was one of the dumbest tactically i've ever seen and another person i spoke to just after the race said exactly the same. My thinking was no one could possibly see what i thought was so dumb as actually being clever,well that hasn't been the case on here which was why i went into my anaysis of why that was. Thats reminds me of one of my most favorite tv clips ever . It was from faulty towers when basil was told to take it easy,and how he reacted.I would put the clip up but it don't know how,but you would probably remember it anyway.That one and the one where he gave the car a thrashing with a stick.

Why can't you,blackie or counter punch just look at the majestic mans record that i have referred you too? . Again,if you want proof of what i've been saying,just look at majestic mans record in the last 5 years. He hasn't been able to win at all at 2600m or beyond. The furtherest he had been able to win in 5 years was one lower stake race in australia at 2400m. In new zealand ,do you know how many races he has won beyond 2000m in the last 5 years? One.And that was a 2200 5 horse race at cambridge where he went to the front and went slow and ran a 2.00.4 mile rate. Now. What did johhny cox say to the stipes. "he wanted to ensure there was a strong tempo throughout,which would suit his runner". Those of you who have said cox's tactics of parking out muscle mountain and trying to outstay his rivals,well put bluntly,i think you simply come across as being the devils advocate. Your stance can't be based on any logic.I simply don't believe you are that poor a judges of form and the horses records. So why are you devils advocate on this topic. Again,my guess is you believe that commenting on a higher profile participants drive in a negative way is not what should happen,even on here a social platform like this where lots of subjects are discussed.. So what happens , you just ignore what so obviously counters what you are saying.The cause is more important than the facts. And if i was to analyse counter punch i suppose his comments were partly motivated because he has a relation who works with cox,and no doubt thinks highly of him,so just looking after a mate type thing.In each case i think the motives are well intentioned but don't stand scrutiny. And each of you know that. Whether you agree with what i just said,whatever.

"Had it been him then this entire topic wouldn't be debated" you say. So thats your answer to the Fact it was a stablemate..Just visualise in my mind that it was someone else. There you go,now i've done that,i can stop bagging cox.Got it. Thanks counter punch. And you also seem happy to say cox's drive made perfect sense from the point he decided to take a trail,because he had burnt hard in the first 400m. Sorry,but the race was run over 2600m and my posts have clearly also been about his tactics used in the first 400m. My comments relate to what happened,not what if's. You know,i've come to the conclusion that even stating the blatantly obvious is deemed a no go area by some these days. All it does is confirm my long held opinion. That people within harness racing operate, live and think within their own bubble and when it comes to higher profile personalitites that people like,well critcism of them is a no go area.Even commenting about someones drive is deemed unneccsary because feelings may be hurt.It even permeates the media.I'm not saying i can't see a little merit in that approach,i'm just saying i find its just not me. I know that,always have because i've seen it over so many years now. On one hand i admire the loyalty,on the other i think it leads to situations where, when something big happens which generates negative publicity for the industry,people involved are caught by surprise and the flow on effects of that, is it can have many unnecessary and alarming consequences on people minds.If you don't know what i mean,just think about it,i can name many many examples.It should never come to that ,but it does and its a consequence of the the mindset created by being in the bubble i talk about. Anyway,i don't live in the bubble. I think harness racing is full of good people and anyone who has success earns it as it doesn't come easy.I think people like you,counter punch also do a top job and put your heart and soul into promoting the sport.But i also believe you have the bubble type of thinking as well.I follow harness racing because of the horses,but the people within harness racing are really good people. But i've been at the point for a wee while now where i think people should be able to discuss topics involving personalities,so i do. Bit of a yarn is where i do it. I've had a good day,so i haven't written this to let of steam,but i do find when i discuss topics like this i scratch my head..

If you look at the stridemaster times and take the time majestic man ran overall,1.93.11 seconds and subtract what he ran his last 2200 in,165.84 then you get what he ran his first 400m in. So according to stridemaster Majestic man ran a 27.27 first quarter at the start of a 2600 race. He hasn't won a race 2600m or further for over 5 years. Hes run a lot of good placing over that distance in the last 5 years but you only have to look at his record to see why hes regarded as best over short distances. Also wasn't it last year he was stood down for a month in australia after he bled. The data backs up what i say in my opinion. Johnny cox in the stipes report said he was trying to outstay muscle mountain. Thats why i say his tactics defied logic in my opinion.

Fair enough. i will have to agree to disagree with you and blackie. Yes i do have great repect for muscle mountain and yes i do think ben hope always drives him very well,even if it is easier to overcome a tougher run because hes that good.He was a red hot favorite because punters view him in that light.I had thought everyone does. Like i said earlier,i put $5 a place on majestic man. personally i gave up hope of him running top 3 when he burnt for a 2nd time to hold out muscle mountain. Muscle Mountain is a great horse. Sundees son and him are a couple of the best in the last couple of decades. Every time he goes to the races hes there to win and is driven accordingly. Rival drivers and trainers respect Muscle mountains ability and know he won't be lining up unless hes ready to win. That respect was gained by many outstanding previous performances. It doesn't matter what the sport,whether it be harness racing,rugby,league,cricket or whatever. When you don't treat any very high quality opponent with the respect they have earned,then you do so to your own detriment. personally i think it was a good thing for mr cox that muscle mountain won. Because had he say got beaten by a nose by love n the port and say majestic man had faded to 5th ,then everyone would be talking about how they sacrificed majestic man,just so they could beat muscle mountain. A result like that would not have been a good look for harness racing. It didn't happen, because what i have said is true,muscle mountain is such a talented horse and ben hope always had faith in plan b working. But hey,Mr cox drove 2 winners yesterday and thats a real achievement as its not easy to do on a premier days racing, when you mainly drive for several different smaller stables.

What he achieved was the trail behind his stablemate instead of muscle mountain .Was that the plan? Or did he think muscle mountain wasn't good enough to work and win. Was that the plan? was he trying to outstay muscle mountain with the horse phil williamson has said many times is best as a sprinter. was that the plan? can't be those,because all of the above plans are flawed based on past performances by the horses concerned. So when you say.."good on him for having a crack",what was it he was having a crack at? What happens tactically in harness races is subjective,often based on what part of the industry in which people have participated in. Punters are often different from drivers/trainers.Hence we get differing opinions on whats accpetable to say and whats not,based on the different perspectives.Punters tend to be colder and more upfront,just call it as it is with their approach. whereas those who may be family,friends or interact with someone who is the subject of criticism ,well they factor in, that there is a personality, that they may well like involved. i get it. But for me,i just say what i think.I know no one,but if i did,i would still be the same. Thats just me. also I trust my judgments to be accurate although no doubt i don't always get it spot on. But i can tell you the one thing that has always really annoyed me is when i see someone treating the punter for a mug and not driving to obtain the best possible result.I don't bet much at all now ,but i identify with the punter. When i did bet,i could lose big money on a horse and if it was trying,well not to worry,on to the next. But if i was to lose $5 on a horse that i thought wasn't trying or was there to be sacrificed for a stablemate,then i would feel taken for a mug. I think mr cox drove to beat muscle mountain,not to achieve the best result for his drive majestic man.His responsibilty to the punter,well he showed little regard for that in my opinion. Also i would note that we have all seen muscle mountain race against multiple williamson runners in the past,mostly driven by the sons of phil williamson or by r may. And every time we have,we have seen each driver go out there and drive in a way that is to achieve the best result for the horse they drove.No sacrificing one stablemate for anothers benefit. Just as it should be. The thing about harness racing is there is always tomorrow. But our perception of what may happen tomorrow is based on what may have happened today or yesterday.

Can't agree with you gammalite. Where i disagree is when you say Johnny cox was there to make life hard for his main rival,muscle mountain. Johnny cox was not there for that reason. He was there to drive his horse in a way that achieved the best possible placing. obviously muscle mountain was the best horse to trail to achieve the best possible placing. He made his own horse, majestic man sprint for an extra 150m,only to drop in the trail behind a horse not as good as muscle mountan. so he expended more energy for the same position anyway.Thats why his drive was so poor. Pretty sure majestic man runs second,not fourth with a more thinking drive.And the horse would have had a less strenuous run going into its fututre engagements. So there were many negative results to his drive. Probably the worst factor was,what people watching would be thinking. Many would be thinking ,look at that fella,happy to sacrifice his own chance for the benefit of his stablemate.Thats what i and many others thought.That doesn't install confidence in the integrity side of things as regards each horse being driven on its merits. If hes going to do that for a stable which he hardly drives for,whats he going to do if driving for the telfer stable.Like it or not,that will be a consequence of yesterdays drive.Just stating a fact as far as that goes.

My assumption just makes sense to me. the more in a tote pool,the less larger amounts bet effect the prices.So obviously your able to make better judgment calls as to the" value" you refer to, as in the smaller tote pools ,your reducing your own value simply by investing. Also i think its just logic,that the tote pools are a reflection of the coverage and punter interest which follows, in any given race. So logically,the more exposure,the more punter investment not just on the tote,but the final field as well.. As to dividends. One thing which has stood out to me when observing the TABCORP NSW pools on nz harness. If you get a carry forward(jackpot) in the exotic bets from one race to the next,then there follows significant increased aussie punter interest in the jackpoting pools. Had nz harness pools been commingled with tabcorp, it would be realistic to believe that if it was at a meeting getting good sky exposure due to being run at the right time slot,if say a trifecta,first 4 or even exactas jackpots for a couple of races then you could see interst in the tens of thousands,possibly over a hundred thousand .I say that because it just seems to take a jackpot of $300 on a trifecta or first four polol on a nz race,and you get an extra couple of thousand in the next race.Imagine if ot was jackpoting say $10,000,the interst would be very high. from my observations of the NSW tabcorp pools,The key to pool size has little relevance to the quality of horses running.What is most important is the exposure a race gets on things like aussie sky racing. Thats why i understand what the people from entain are on about when it comes to wanting more harness racing midweek at certain timeslots. Thats because they know they will get more exposure,and that punters investing follows. Only one thing i did notice about the wednesday meetings at addington.In a couple of the high turnover races,the favorites got back and the drivers just followed them around and made no effort to improve. In those couple of races,only blair orange showed any initiatve when the pace slowed.If punter confidence in the product is to be maintained,you neeed drivers at least looking like they are trying.Which of course means the stipes need to be on the ball as well.

. Gammalite answered your question earlier.its 2nd from the top. But heres more clarification for you if you want it.This is how i believe it works. TABCORP own all tabs in australia,except western australia. The KEY is to remember,due to legislative and other reasons,3 seperate betting pools are run by australian tab's.I guess it involves consistency in %'s taken from the pools before returns to the punter. But we only have a commingling agreement with one of those. The one we commingle with is the supertab( or taborps victorian properites ). This pool includes the supertab victoria,western australia and act .We miss out on commingling with the rest of australia. and seemingly,because nsw tabcorp has recently taken over the victorian retail tab licences,in fact we won't be getting much of the victorian betting either.. Midway through last year the NZ Commerce Commision granted permission for ENTAIN to join the agreement with the nztab (racing board) and supertab(victorian tab),part of which meant,those are the providers of the pools we bet into. There is no agreement with the bulk of australia. Supertab and tabcorp nsw pools are not commingled for nz,but are for some racing in hong kong. Thats the whole point i've been making. While NZ racing has gone with ENTAIN,its been a backward step as far as the commingling goes because of recent changes in australia. Its obviously not good for nz harness racing the way it currently works,as it goes without saying that the bigger the nz pools,the more likely you are to get more punter participation. But it isn't happening because we have partnered with the groups who provide the lowest amounts into our nz betting pools.

I see the stipes asked the question and mr cox's explanation was he wanted to lead to ensure there was a strong tempo which would suit his horse and that he thought muscle mountain had a tendency to ease the tempo when leading. So he wanted a strong tempo over the 2600m. Fair enough you may think,but hang on,hasn't phil williamson been saying for years that majestic man is a sprinter,not a stayer.Majestic man has won once from 17 starts over 2600 at addington. The biggest question is,did mr cox actually believe what he said. I mean,no one else would,but hey if he did then maybe i owe him an apology.Nah,pretty sure he just came up with an excuse for a very poor tactical drive. I suppose he had to make up something. I also just watched unhinged and ben hope commented he probably got it wrong with his tactics. i guess he just is being humble,but his tactics,whether he ended up winning or losing made perfect sense. getting stuck 3 back the fence would have been getting it wrong. All in all,i suppose johnny cox made the race more exciting than it would have been if he had handed up to muscle mountain,but it still doesn't change that he should have been driving to achieve the best possible result in that race. But hey,look at those 2 wins mr cox had. That pinseeker seems to have some push button speed and it must be exciting to be training horse like that.Hopefully he keeps progressing as its always nice to see some of the smaller stables have a nice horse.

yes,can't keep a good man down for too long. Mug one moment then hero the next. Funny old day for mr cox.

What was up with the drive of johnny cox on this horse. personally i put $5 a place on him thinking he may cross and lead or most likely trail when muscle mountain came around again. Who could have guessed that johnny cox thought that muscle mountain was not a good horse to follow,instead opting for his stablemate. If ever you have seen team driving ,that was it. No way can you say majestic man was driven to achieve his best possible position. Like,i'm laughing on one hand that it was so stupid,but on the other i lost $5.

Thats all well and good,but you can't just look at it like that. You have to factor in what it does to things like housing costs and the costs of renting. After all,the government must be paying an absolute fortune out each week in accomodation,temporary additional support and other payments to people just so they can afford a roof over them. All beacuse rents are so high because demand outstrips supply in housing. Also,the ones who you said do"many of these jobs that seem to be below kiwis and they not highly paid jobs".. They are most likely to be the ones on temporary visas. If you did hope to gain permanent residency down the track, then you are more likely to take on employment with unfavorable conditions. So they take on the jobs you say new zealanders won't or don't want to,because thats where they are at to survive and prove they are of value. In other words they are more motivated. Also those with a pathway to permanent residency will put up with unfavorable work conditions,as they have entered into agreements,often sight unseen to work for periods of time with certain employers in certain areas. Its costly and complicated for them to change that also. I've met a lot of immigrants,but not one who wants permanent residency,comes here wanting to stay and be employed in a low paid,unskilled job. The higher skilled immigrants who have the higher skilled jobs that there is a shortage of are the ones who can get permanent residency quicker.Many must be thinking of a move to australia once they have permanent nz residency where pay is so much better,like so many new zealanders currently do. Also i never get why when people talk about immigrants,(whether permanent or temporary),why don't they also talk about the remittances(money sent back home to their families). thats a lot of money that will never be circulated in nz.I'm not saying they shouldn't,i'm just saying its a factor that people don't talk about for reasons i don't understand.Its huge really. The nz government taxes them a minimal amount although i don't know whether it varies for different countries. And obviously nz has a role in the pacific region. But my point as far as that goes is,if immigrants are to come here and access things like free public health care,then why don't the government increase the tax on the remittances for certain countries as a way of helping pay for things like the free public health care . Other countries are increasing the remittance tax. India went from 5 % to 20% last year,so why dont nz increase it a bit to help pay for things.

i agree with nowornever. John allen went around the country selling the new website and how it was going to do this and that. I watched one of his speeches on the internet one time and thought to myself,is that fella stupid or what.I asked myself,am i missing something, as why are the people hes talking to not saying anything.He reminded me of forrest gumps quote,"stupid is as stupid does". But hey he sold his dream to the industry groups and they put their faith in a man who seemed to be a dreamer. The results of his new website.for example immediately easybet sales by half a million a week. barry lichter once wrote a good article on how the tab got to where it was in 2020. E.g. When allen was there he drove down the tab's equity from 71 million to 23 million. Also by the time he finished the the tab had liabilities of 71 million and assets of 49 million,meaning it was technically insolvent. So thats one of the main reasons the tab into the mess it was. What is an eye opener is how much profit ENTAIN is predicting they will get out of the NZ TAB each year. which does make you wonder,like you suggest chief. The point i've been making,if nz harness viability depends on future turnover,then surely it would have made the most sense to go with the group who clearly can generate the most turnover. i.e. tabcorp and not entain. You have to wonder wether part of the decision makers who chose to endorse entain,were thinking,well we will only be here for another 5 years or so,so we have huaranteed things will be ok while we are here. What about what comes after that. what about the 10 year picture.

Thats a bit different from the TABCORP boss who resigned last month after offering to facilitate sexual favours for a victorian regulator from the commission who was deciding which company won the lucrative victorian exclusive wagering shops. Apparently he lost between 5-10 million in bonuses. from august ,TABCORP will have exclusive wagering rights to retail in victoria. Its a shame nz can't commingle with their pools.

I think its only in 4 states in australia.victoria,western australia,tasmania and act.Victoria only started racing on good friday a couple of years ago. I think they make some of those meetings about raising funds for charities, to give it the appearance of being more socially acceptable. gammalite would know. I don't think queensland allow it.

Entains revenue in australia was down more % wise than TABCORP.I mentioned that in an earlier post. Entain recently reported a global loss of 936.5 million pounds..So thats a loss of $1,966 million nz dollars. TABCORP is aiming to have a 30% market share of the australian gambling market.Entain say they have a 17% share. In august 2023 entain laid off 50 jobs. A report said cost cutting and numbers employed had occured across entains global business.It had employed about 800 people last year in australia but that number had reportedly been reduced by about 80 in 2023. the australian anti money laundering watchdog has an ongoing investigation which could cost their australian branch of entain up to $22 million. I would have thought it just common sense that tabcorp,with almost double the market share and customers of australian wagering, when compared to entain,could generate the greater $ spend on products like nz harness. The turnovers i've quoted backs that up. Obviously entain sweetened the deal enough for nz to think it was the better deal. Also,its the sports betting entain wanted most from nz.My point is was it a shortsighted decsion to go with enatin and should there not have been more focus on the overall long term health of the industry.

I think one of the most worrying things is the health system and how will it cope in the future with the extra demand. As you get older,you think about things like that,and i've come to the conclusion that unless you have the money to go private,its a sure thing your not going to get the care and treatment to keep you in good health. I read an article titled"the dreadful state of our health system" and the stats they quoted truly paint a public health system that can no longer meet the demands of new zealanders.It said the level of decline is the most staggering ever. And the high immigration numbers just mean its only going to get worse.A study in europe showed a 1% increase in immigrants leads to a 3.8% drop in public health care expenditure on each person. here was some of the nz stats. When a gp refers a patient to see a specialist,this is supposed to be done within 4 months as delays sometimes mean a disease can no longer be treated. Just in one year,the numbers not seeing a specialist in 4 months went up by 46%,from 35,000 to 51,200. then when specialists decide someone is eligible for planned or elective surgery,its supposed to be done within 4 months.Of course the criteria used these days is making it harder to get on those lists.In july 2023 there were 28,100 who didn't get it within the 4 months. Ten years prior the number was 360. when labour came into power in 2017,only 7% of people who turned up at the emergency departments of hospitals waited over 6 hours to be seen. Last year that had jumped to 28%. Then you factor in all the issues caused by the vaccines and covid. It doesn't matter what the government,its only going to go from really bad to even worse.

One last list of tabcorp figures,then i will put this topic to bed. Tonights tabcorp turnovers at manawatu. Win pools, 1050,11206,8362,14320,15411,5633,3925,6926,6539. trifectas.368,3501,2056,4293,3061,1614,1024,1134,1435 exactas,319,3795,2268,4118,3254,866,996,734,1981 they had other pools like duets,quinellas,first four's. Like i have said earlier in this thread. When you look at what TABCORP could have done for nz harness racing pools,compared to entain, then wouldn't you have to think,from a nz harness viewpoint, the powers that be were rather short sighted in going with entain. TABCORP obviously can create big pools,often bigger than nz pools if they wish, by simply giving the nz harness greater sky coverage. Just as they can limit the nz harness pools with less sky coverage.Thats not something ENTAIN can do.Imagine if nz harness had worked with tabcorp as their main partner. Tabcorp sometimes has more in their nz harness racing pools than nz does. Just imagine if those pools were commingled with the nz pools. having bigger pools to bet into in nz encourages greater participation. Thats that.

my guess is you backed verducci driven by jessica young for a place in race 1 at addington on friday night. Personally i think it would have been easier if you just named the couple that you thought drove poorly. Drivers named should know not to take it personally if a punter isn't happy with a drive. I know some do,but personally i think thats an over reaction. More important things for them to worry about than if a punter thinks you didn't drive the perfect race.That type of thing is just part of the sport,and any sport for that matter. By naming them brodie,your not complaining about every driver outside the ones you mentioned. thats why personally i am specific when i complain about a drive. Although i mostly limit myself to having a moan if i don't think someone is trying.each to their own i suppose.