the galah

Thats one possibilty,but would that work? Southland put more money into the non win races,but they are struggling for numbers like elsewhere. While there are many reasons for horses not being persevered with there is certainly a lot of healthy horses at the time they are taken out of training,never to be seen on a racetrack I think the main reason is the bulk of professional trainers and their owners don't want to continue having a horse trained that can't win more than 1 race. Everyone must have heard that said many times.And of course they are talking about within the next year or so. Can you change that attitude. I don't think so because its obviously based on economics. The type of stables that value their udr ratings are of significance as far as what they do with their cast offs and how they could be encouraged to redirect them to trainers who would persevere with them. does hrnz run a registry for those type of horses that anyone looking for a horse could access or register one?would some of the more high profile trainers even use it if there was? Then the question would become are there enough trainers around who would be happy to train a horse who has had 2 or 3 preparations,But who is not seen as an economically attractive. The interest shown in that type of horse on gavel house auctions indicates there is still a demand for them,just hard to gauge the exact numbers. Then you would have to provide a handicapping system whereby those horses can find suitable races to compete in with lesser stakes than normal.To do that you may have to have the handicapper have the ability to give horses with say 5 or more unplaced runs in non win races or 1 or more win races the opportunity to be given a dual handicap rating based on their current form so they could then compete in races against horses of similar ability.Clubs would have to gaurantee they run races for them. Maybe there could be a late autumn /winter /early spring circuit for that type of horse with a couple of races each day guaranteed. A bit like the handicapping system we have,but additionally directed at a specific level. Would punters bet on them Absolutely. Obviously not everyones cup of tea,but there are some that find races with only 3 or so stables represented a real turn off. What i have suggested probably wouldn't get much support as many just say we shouldn't cater for that type of horse. Then in the next breath comment about the lack of numbers. There are many horses never made available for someone else to train.

I haven't taken my shirt off yet. Thats a funny thing to say.I had an uncle that used to say that. I know you happen to agree with me. Wouldn't matter if you didn't either. I'm not sure what part of my post made you think of the shirt coming off. Maybe it was the just think about that at the end.,but that was a general comment not directed at anyone. I'm just looking at this from the point of view of the horses concerned. Sounds like that is a top priority for you as well.I know,like everyone,that the people most upset about what has happened would be the telfers and the horses connections,as we all do. When you talk about just trying to be fair and not wishing to make snap judgments. Well i think thats what many on here from both sides of the argument are saying. I understand that. My point has always been that fairness doesn't eliminate considering logical possible explanations.

Its certainly relevant,but you don't seem to comprehend that it could be argued that it strengthens my argument. This information is open to interpretation either way. There are certain treatments used to increase red cell counts,and known to increase the risk of heart issues, where its documented that anabolic steroids are recommended be given as well at the right time to put the horse into a building state,so the treatment is most effective. So if given to a horse from a family predisposed to heart trouble,then obviously the horse is at greater risk. I have suggested its just logic to include my theory as a plausible possibility given the number and frequency of the deaths. I don't think we will ever be privy to what has actually happened here. I just hope that we don't have anything of this scale happen again to horses from any stable.

I see wandering eyes is reporting on another part of this website that the RIB is investigation the deaths. And so it should. Are they going to do toxicology reports on all the organs that may unearth possible causes. They could spend a bit of money,will they? That is relevant information to that horses death. I was talking to a vet about treatments given to horses last month. Her comment was words to the effect that horses can handle being given treatments legal or otherwise,but where you run into trouble is if you gave a treatment to a horse from a family which is predisposed to having certain weaknesses. Spatchcock gave a logical reason,but no it doesn't ease my mind.Why would it exclude anything?

Of course you could be right on both counts.Reasonable/logical explanation and dodgy. What seems to have got some on here annoyed,is you can't even suggest it may be a result of the telfers giving their horses a treatment that is known to cause deaths of horses in similar circumstances. In other words unintentional human error.That is because that would be to accept that they may be using performance enhancers,albeit while operating within the rules. Seems some think you are better to think the cause to be a result of poor training skills,as strange as that logic around perception of the telfer stable may be. Just think about that.

Well here is the facts as regards how many different horses they have taken to the races throughout nz from the 20th of may 2022 to today.I have gone through all the records. 34. Thats right just 34. Some have started more than once,most a couple of times. How many of the 34 have collapsed and died- 3. Here is the stipes report- cya doit- 20 may-commenced to give ground passing the 1200m and was taken to the outside of the track,before collapsing and was pronounced dead upon vet inspection. alta debonair-22 july-weakened final bend-upon returning to the stabling area the colt collapsed and was found to be deceased. seasider-8 september-commenced to give ground at the 700m,collapsing to the track near the stable entrance early in the home straight...and was pronounced dead on inspection by the vet. Samples were taken from all 3 horses and post mortems to be conducted. They are the facts.

So you have just said your commenting without even watching the races concerned. You say you don't know the names of the horses,but i gave their names in my first post. You say"to kill a horse you really need to overstep the mark by a fair bit."...So you do understand the points we have made. Yet you call our comments a disgrace. They have hundreds of runners you say,knowing we have been discussing the last 4 months. So stop making numbers up. What has training 4 winners in a night got to do with the subject being discussed. Does training winners somehow mean there horse deaths can be overlooked. I really don't get the logic of that argument you make there. So you have had 3 horses die in a year. Are you saying your horses dropped dead during a race yourself.If not,why say something that you know has no relevance to the circumstances being discussed. Is that the best you van come up with?Or did you bring that up because yours died in similar circumstances?If so,Are you kidding me!!! I've been following harness racing for decades.I've never heard or recall a run of racetrack deaths in similar circumstances,yet your leaving the possible inference that you had the same thing happen to you. No wonder you are so touchy around the subject. No i wouldn't shut them down. But proper harness leadership would have already issued a press statement to reassure everyone that an investigation was underway and being treated with urgency. Your have become like the chief. Twisting my words. I was asked what i thought was the cause. I don't look at the answer from the point of view of what can i say that will minimize anything the telfers may have done. That didn't factor into my answer. i'm not here to run defence for the telfer barn like you and others are.I just answered the question and gave an opinion that i think makes the most sense. One that anyone with an open mind would consider. The horses who died were two 2 year olds having their first start and a 13 start 3 year old. You can call my comments disgraceful,thats your opinion. I think your comments are foolish.

Just watched the interview you refer to. Gives even more appreciation of what a heart warming story that is. I do hope HRNZ put that link up for that as its a feel good story if ever I've seen one.Somehow,with what i've seen of your past video interviews,you get across what racing is all about,whether it be the high achievers or the grass roots.it seems a win/win if they post more of your input.

What a wonderful horse he is.170 starts . Won as a 2 year old and still winning at 12. His owners, m & t copland, b brice and miss f o'reilly must have received endless enjoyment out of watching him race. The trainers,the O'reilly's have done an amazing job,and must really have taken care of him as he still has the same will to win and wish to please his trainers as he has always shown over the years. We do still have franco huntington and four starzzz shiraz in the south who have done great jobs,but these type of horses are getting very rare these days.Its a shame because the likes of jerry garcia have every right to be called one of the stars of the sport,as they inspire participation and are recognised and admired just as much,if not more by the dwindling number of owners and trainers who don't have big teams. Whatever they do in the future,we know they will be always well looked after and that is another reason why the likes of jerry garcia is whats good about harness racing.

There is always new technology around ways to support better performance and recovery.Have you forgotten blood spinning being legal until they outlawed it a couple of years ago. That about sums up how you see things like this. If you suggest anything,even something as obvious as this, should be investigated then your not on team harness racing.I call that tunnel vision. I've expressed my opinions enough on this subject so won't comment further on it.

Come on chief,you must know that anyone who witnessed what has happened here would be left with an awful perception of the harness industry. And if they had the knowledge that it has occurred multiple times within a short time frame and that people within the industry just look the other way,without any proper investigation, because it just happens to be the leading stable,then SAFE will and should target the racing industry.

There are treatments to increase the red blood cells to increase oxygen supply. I assume not all can be tested for or are illegal.Thats my thinking here if you want to understand my thinking. One thing i have said previously about the telfer stable is they are very high achievers.But i have commented more than once on here that its a stable where their horses seem to have performances where you just scratch your head,realise you just have to ignore that run,and put the run down to the telfer factor. The reason i have said that before on here is because it happens. I just refer to it as the telfer factor in my records on horses performance. And it certainly doesn't relate to overtraining as those type of performances come out of the blue when the said horse is racing well.

I gave an earlier explanation as to what i thought was the most likely scenario,given how they died. I understand you are looking at it from the point of view where no one can say for sure,not wishing to think anything too negative about the stable.

If you or anyone honestly do believe that is a result of over training,then how could you possibly have any respect for a stable that does that. Thats got to be worse than the cause i have suggested,as the signs of an over trained horse would be there before they took it to the races.I at least give the telfer stable credit for having the ability to recognise how to train a horse properly. Tell me when have the all stars ever lost 3,2 or even 1 horse in similar circumstances on the racetrack.You linking the all stars stable to what has happened with the telfer horses is unfair. Tell me,have you even bothered to watch the videos of the said races. I can only imagine what it would have been like to watch a racehorse stagger its way back into the stables ,then drop dead,or be at auckland the night the telfer horse collapsed and dieda few metres from the winning post. I have given what i think is the most likely scenario.What i have said is not hypocritical whatsoever.I accept that not all performance enhancers,and there are many,are illegal or have yet to have been deemed illegal. Comprehend?

So you have suggested the explanation is because they were over trained as well.That our leading stable over trains them to the point they drop dead. Is that one of the advanced training skills you have referred to previously,that is required to become leading trainer? Well chief,i know you think no one ever uses performance enhancers that testing won't pick up. You have stated that many times. And i know your explanation for the large number of high profile trainers being outed in the USA in the last couple of years was because they were dumb enough to be duped by a vet who sold them what they thought were performance enhancers, over several years,but in fact weren't because testing never picked anything up. And you have stated several times that you believe that its a sign of a top trainer,when owners get big bills which show their horses blood has regularly been analysed and given other treatments to peak their horse for the big days. And here i am suggesting that just maybe, that may have prevented these deaths .Make up your mind. I've never said here that the telfer barn is doing anything illegal, but infer what you want,i don't care. And you say i talk bullshit.

So your suggesting a plausible explanation for in the last 4 months, the Telfer stable having a ratio of about 1 in every 20 horses they have taken to the races die,is because they are overtraining them. Do you really think the current leading stable in NZ don't know when they are over training their horses?Signs such as poor performance,fatigue or longer time to recover after fast work would be picked up straight away. Besides,why do you relate over training to how they died?

I find it surprising that someone with a such a knowledge of horse racing and horse welfare would say that its reasonable to argue that these deaths are unrelated,part of racing and just coincidental. No i am not suspecting nobbling. For that to happen someone would have to travel to both the north and south island training establishments. Its not a plausible argument. Swabs and blood tests from the horses concerned no doubt have been taken,but your kidding yourself if you think that will guarantee to discover the reason.It may well give indications of the cause,or it may not.You should read what the USA investigative branches on the integrity side say as far as that subject goes. So what is the likely cause here. Well,a more plausible explanation than yours would be it is most likely that the administration of a treatment given with the intention of increasing performance,has not been effectively monitored by the stable concerned.The reason for that would be there is a significant cost involved in overseeing particular "treatments". For example some treatments given,are strongly recommended to have blood tests taken regularly immediately after work while the treatment is given over a month or so. That is to avoid too drastic a changes in the horse,which could result in the type of thing we have seen. The double standards i refer to are HRNZ making a point of ensuring proper record keeping and proper oversight of the life of each horse,beyond their years on the racetrack,so as to try ensure they are properly and humanely cared for after racing. Yet,we have the type of thing i have referred to happening in plain sight. One of the ways of drawing attention to things like this is through websites like this.

You say ..Horses live,horses die.Happens every day in various ways. This didn't happen in various ways. It happened in the same exact way each time. Waller lost 3 horses in a month?How,because you have to compare apples with apples..I await your reply on that one. How many individual runners would the telfer barn have had in the last 4 months. My guess would be around 50-60. Now 3 less. Of course the Telfers will have a very good idea of what has been the cause. You say no one is being casual. Well ,my opinion is i interpret your reply as being casual.And of course many will treat it the same way. The telfer barn is the biggest operation in nz. The main buyers at the sales. That is why industry leadership should be ensuring a proper investigation of the cause. It will be the opposite,as judging from recent comments,industry leaders will put as main priority how their actions may be perceived by industry participants.Thats no leadership at all in other words.There is an element of possible animal cruelty,irrespective of whether it be unintentional,to this. Just ask yourself this. If it was a less successful trainer who had the same thing happen then what would people be saying?Double standards exist within this industry from those who should not have them.. And i'm not referring to the enforcement arm when i say that.

Can't see it being anything to do with how they are trained myself. An over trained horse gets tired and goes slower. The 3 telfer horses have all done the same thing. They all of a sudden go from travelling ok,to stopping to a walk,struggle a few hundred more metres,then collapse and die. I realise it is unfair of me or anyone,to say someone can't form their own opinions,but it irks me that on trackside,media coverage and then some comments on here,people just focus on the results on the track and ignore something which in my view is of significance. There is a significant pattern to say the Telfer stable is sending horses to the races which are suffering unintended and unexpected consequences as a result of actions being taken at the Telfer stable. 3 unrelated horses dropping dead at the end of their races in identical circumstances in 4 months is an obvious pattern. It is not a one off medical event. Its a pattern. There is cause and effect here. Its a stain on harness racing that people can be so causal about it in my opinion.

As to carter dalgety. I think at this stage he is a thinker who has all the skills to make a real impact as a freelance driver in years to come. I don't know him from a bar of soap,but from what i see on trackside. Dalgety has an excellent ability to judge pace. Our best two drivers,blair orange and john dunn are exceptional at that.keeping your horse in its comfort zone while using it up is a difficult skill to master. Dalgety appears to have the ideal mindset. He is about controlled aggression and driving to maximise the horses ability. Blair orange is our best at that. Horses respond to that by giving their best. Horses know when they have a driver where they are expected to put in,and they know when they have a driver who they know they can bludge a bit if they are that way inclined. Maintaining that mindset is not easy and is why drivers in my opinion go through slumps in form sometimes. He is very fortunate to have the right opportunity. He has access to driving the horses from the stables with the better chances. In this case his parents and the likes of bob butt. He doesn't knock them around when beaten. Horses back up when driven like that and it shows kindness which i think horses appreciate if they have given a 100%. They are far more likely to back up and respond next time if a driver has that skill. There are other talents a top driver has to have but they are some of the main ones that dalgety appears he may have.. The only negative i can see in what brodie has said, is we are currently not seeing him get a lot of drives. You just can't judge someone based solely on how they drive when they are driving the best horses. They have to prove they can get the best results out of the normal racehorses. That may only be a 3rd in a methven non win race when the horse he is driving is only the 6th best on ability.So while he looks a talent,i don't think we should overstate his skills just yet.

If you go by last years form,the all stars will improve significantly just prior to november with the bulk of their team.Their driving tactics indicated they weren't anywhere near their peak yet. As to the Telfer team. Yes,they are doing a great job as far as success on the track goes. However i see your the only one who bothered to reply to my recent post as regards that stable.Stats like that speak for themselves.Amazing that some people on here just ignore stuff like that and ramble on about their success instead.

Seasider,a first starter for the telfer barn became the 3rd telfer horse to die in the last 4 months at the racetrack.This follows on from the lightly raced Cya doit at auckland and another first starter in Alta Debonair at addington. All just collapsed and died after racing. Why is that happening?

Well i backed first rose,and it had its forward momentum interrupted when the horse it was following,obsession, locked wheels and lost momentum as it improved. It looked like Korbyn newman was just able to prevent first rose from breaking,but purdon not so lucky with chambray who suffered from the chain reaction. No fault of either newman or purdon that they got checked at that point. Personally i didn't rate chambray a win chance in that race,but it was travelling well at the time it broke so not sure how it would have finished.Maybe might have run 3rd or thereabouts.

Senz-I have never once listened to it.Such a shame they didn't keep the racing stations and just broadcast what was being said on the trackside channels. Animal welfare-i agree. The horse is what is unique about racing,and having a pro active animal welfare policy is a must to create the proper perception to the public. Sports divide-i guess that comment relates to the skills of the high achievers in the sport that you refer to. I think you are getting carried away with your description of the gap between the best trainers and drivers .as compared to most others. But yes they must feed,train and drive them well. But you lose me when you say..stop bagging the stars of the sport. Who actually does that? I don't know anyone that does. What i do know is there is a lot of people who rue the fact that the legal additives,which legally enhance performance,are so much better now that the gap between those that use them and those that don't is much more noticeable. And of course,with that comes the difference in degree that a hard run may have on future performance.And i know that the people who think that strongly support the enforcement around level playing field type rules,as its a given that some trainers,and some vets are always looking to help their horses performance. I'm guessing that is the type of comment you refer to as bagging,and the reason you criticise the people who think that is because you can't make the argument about what they are saying,because you would know the merit of your argument on that topic is lacking. Marketing-I always have thought for years that marketing is directed at the wrong people. In my opinion it should always be targeted at people with profiles similar to your customer base.At least the tab have an understanding of that. HRNZ board being lightweights. I don't know any of them,but that seems a bit unfair. I do however think a there is a general downplaying in the quality of the product that harness racing has,amongst most levels of those participating. The negativity around the future is over emphasized . Negativity is contagious. Saying something over and over makes people believe its true. You can't help but think that the negative side of the future of harness racing is oversold,and the positive side of the future is undersold.. Its all about mindset. Which is where industry leadership has a role in uplifting peoples mindset. Its fair to say they aren't achieving that.

De fillipi again showed what a top trainer he still is.Hes still got it. Last night also saw korbyn newmann prove that he can deliver when given the best drives in the dunn team. Two well judged drives. Hes one of those drivers that for some reason seems to be under estimated by the punters,and pays more on the tote than they should. Hes a driver that always gives me confidence to invest if i think hes on a top chance..