Gammalite

Nearly all the above New Zealand Champion Pacers were last century in previous post , so a quick check of the 'Other Big Race' to win the INTERDOMINION Grand Final, to see IF the NZ Winners of that Time honoured Title have Won an NZ Cup as well this Century. As they are the Stars of the Sport. YULESTAR 2001 Interdom Champ, and Won the Nz Cup off 10m in 2000. ELSU 2005 Interdom Champ, and twice 2nd in the NZ Cup to Just an Excuse (who was off 10m for 2nd Cup) SMOLDA 2016 Inter Champ , nose 2nd in NZ cup after galloping and losing near 50m at the start. LAZARUS 2017 Interdom Champ and twice Winner of the NZ Cup off the front. TIGER TARA 2018 Interdom Champ , twice 2nd and a 3rd in the NZ Cup off the front. ULTIMATE SNIPER 2019 Interdom Champ , don't think contested a Nz Cup. so only 2 Interdominion Champion's from NZ this century have managed to Win the NZ Cup as well. !! And one was more than 20 years ago in YULESTAR. LAZARUS takes the cake as this Centuries SuperChamp then!!!!!! (with Elsu, Smolda and Tiger Tara all narrowly defeated in the NZ Cup , but NOT beaten by the Handicapper in it)

The Cup has a way of seeing the Best take a victory. Just did a little homework to see how the best and most popular and fastest horses have done in the big race. One expert has LIST of The Best 10 Harness Horses to of raced in Nz (and here's their Nz Cup result.) JOHNNY GLOBE won his cup off 48 yards behind handicap LORDSHIP 2 cup wins First one off the front , 2nd one off 42 yards. HIGHLAND FLING 2 cup wins off 12 yards then a mammoth 60 yards CADUCEUS *** 3rd off 12 yards, 2nd off 30 yards , 3rd off 48 yards . The Champ beaten by the Handicapper !! CARDIGAN BAY won his Cup off 54 yards behind. ROBIN DUNDEE *** ran three times 2nd in the Cup (behind Lordship and Cardigan Bay and Garry Dillon) was twice off the front mark and off 24 yards in the third attempt. BLOSSOM LADY Won the Cup off the front mark 1992 CHRISTIAN CULLEN Won the Cup off the front 1998 YOUNG QUINN *** twice 3rd in the NZ cup off the front mark behind Arapaho and Robalan. LAZARUS 2 wins off the front in FFA conditions So there is 10 of the greatest kiwis ever , and interesting to note that Two of the 3 horses to only Place in the New Zealand Cup (Young Quinn and Robin Dundee) had 2 goes at winning it off the front. Caduceus missed in All 5 goes at the NZ Cup, bit of a turn-up for the books ? (Caduceus, Quinny and Robin Dundee each all won an Interdominion in style though)

No not really . I'm just expressing an opinion on a public forum. I'm not saying these things have to happen. therefore advocating it to anyone. It's just an opinion..... ok I understand that LEVEL PLAYING FIELD to you means LEVEL starting marks. that makes sense. I'll retract the comment of 'level playing field 'in that case and REWORD it to , Handicaps are designed to give an even chance of winning, to as many runners as possible ?? how does that sit ? whether it be at the gallops or at the trots. p.s Handicappers do a sterling Job !! I applied for the QLD handicapper job but another more recently retired Trainer got the position unfortunately. perhaps I had too much weed lol........

Great question !! when Delightful Lady Won her 2 Auckland Cups , the 2 years before Gammalite won his , it was a 2700m mobile event. Therefore Delightful Lady was very unfairly Handicapped on 10m in the Nz Cup 3200m stand (IMO) won by the warhorse 'Hands Down' , having not won at that 'distance / stand start in a feature race previously. The mighty mare still went very close, heading off Hands Down as they turned for home, for Mike Stormont, but a brilliant rally by Peter Jones and Hands Down saw him come back on the inside to victory. !!! what a race !!

ANSWER 4. I don't smoke weed. You making Stuff up again to assassinate character ? ANSWER 4. Didn't say you were wrong. I Said you were right actually , that the Best 'Elite' horse as you call it ,wins the Cup usually. Has done for hundred years plus. ANSWER 1. myself ONLY said 'CUP class horses' should be in the Nz Cup . YOU used the word 'average' . Not me . you making stuff up again ?. ANSWER 2. Once again I am saying they should be on 10m for winning Previous Nz Cups (or Rowe Cups or Dominion Hcap or AKLD Cups . TALK About Repetitive lol. This gives a Level Playing Field to ALL runners . (has worked for a Century) Very easy to understand. Doesn't really matter who I think should in the NZ Cup? . you just throwing sand . I think Sundees Son should be in the Nz Cup !!!!!!!!! there you go , go chew on that one ! lol. ANSWER 3. I always make Sense mate. You're the ONLY Person here accusing me with this unnecessary personal attack. You make sense to me . We're having a debate . you should be a politician . ANSWER 4. Majestic Cruiser should be Off the Front IN MY OPINION (am I allowed one anymore???) he hasn't won a 3200m stand. Copy That, Self Assured have = 10m . not rocket science. I'm gunna get a waffle , you're making me hungry . (humor mate humor) go and have a beer and cheer up.

Good news for you Michael is....... The very Elite have and Do Win the NZ Cup. It's an amazing list of winners !!. Barely a champion missing. Young Quinn with the 2 placings was one surprise miss. Whatever the start conditions introduced , the Big Players play well.. Hey why not go like Formula One and make it totally boring and give the best rated and fastest the Pole draw? and work outward from there. Go Lewis Hamilton lol...You might get the 'Elite' Winner you desire badly then ... Might get an Allstars whole front-line at Addington lol ??? (humor matey )

Why ? did they burn it down again. ? Here's one of the Greatest Photo's Ever Taken in the World, with Cardigan Bay leading up the Nz FFA field (the very race we were plugging earlier by co-incidence lol.... ) as the last race of the day. The crowd all moved in an orderly manner to the front (foreground) to watch the race while they waited for the fire brigade to arrive !!!!!!!!!! again you kiwis are amazing Cardy Won of course !!!

And the horse everyone loved Robalan won the Nz Cup and the NZ FFA in the 70's, both the great races without hopples too. Who's the 2nd horse here Ranga? (Nz FFA) think that is Quinny running 3rd. Look at that crowd !! you kiwis are amazing.

Think so? . Ranga would be great with that one and might have spotted another FFAer somewhere. Final Decision ran 2nd in the NZ Cup Free-legged before Superior Chance came along.

Wow Mikey , talk about go for the dagger. Hard to find a more passionate SUPPORTER of harness racing on this site than myself. I Love the NZ horses doing well. I love the Aussies going to Nz and doing well. Interdominions are great, Your 3 horses are all owned in Australia , so there's another reason I hope you are right and they don't start. The Cup would get to Stay in New Zealand on a Mantlepiece !!! (trying for some humor there mate) Great to see you are desparate for Self Assured to be in the Cup again. !! I think Mark is the bee's knees , and drove against him in his very first win at Ruakaka all those years ago. A great man indeed. What is wrong with me ? Having an opinion different to you makes it "Clearly there is something Wrong with Me" ?? Oh Because I think a hundred year + tradition of handicapping the Nz Cup, AKLD Cup, Rowe Cup and Dominion Handicap should continue ???? maybe it's the vaccination ?? get Brodie here to tell me please....... will I recover??

Spot on Doomed !! lets get some prestige into the NZ FFA as well.!! And make it a Huge Carnival in November. What a great race in can be / is ...... Here's your girl Armalight with Bob Negus after that big Cup win , blowing away the FFA field . (Gammalite was 4th 7 lengths away 😩 lol) Look at that crowd on Show Day !! great times !! Bonnie's Chance 2nd again for Richard Brosnan , but may of won both races the following year I think.

That's my view too, I think Copy That and Self Assured in NZ Cup (and Sundee and Bolt in the Dominion ) would all start still if on 10m behind if the handicapper gave them that penalty. If fit and well. Pretty good trainers and drivers they all have , and I would think could handle the situation ?? lol........ Meaning they have to come around the field gives all the field some sort of hope. How can that be a bad thing ? I hope Michael is right that Copy That and Self Assured sulk and don't start if handicapped. They have both won a Nz Cup each , and would be great for all the other Cup runners !!!! . esp Spankem .... Gammalite got invited over to the Nz Cup once and was promptly handed a rather un-fair 10m handicap for his trouble ? , but didn't grizzle lol...... Found it a bit hard though , and ran 5th about 12 lengths behind tearaway winner Armalight. Ya would think I would hate Handicaps !!!!! lol....

No worries mate. I love handicaps so it blurs my vision . I love every runner having a chance. I love that you enjoy the great race too. sorry I couldn't get your point but these things happen. All the best. I think the Nz Cup should be just for Cup class horses. The Group 1's in Aus are hard to get into. Wish it was the same for you there. If I had a good trotter (or Pacer) I certainly wouldn't Flatten it chasing Sundees Son and Self Assured over 2 miles . I'd go to Aus . as Majestic Man ultimately did . and he got 2nd in the last Interdominion Trot bless him. Flat as a pancake taking on Sundee last year in the Dominion . Didn't even bother with the Rowe Cup this year recently ??? that's A horse as good as him too. very sad really what is happening. That's the point I was trying to say anyway. You can have a Good horse like him (majestic Man) and still be No chance of winning the Rowe or Dominion ... why bother starting and wrecking your horse?? . Lazarus in his 2nd year at NZ Cup, Self Assured and Sundees Son All are going PHENOMINAL TIMES off the front marks. The rivals*** are NO CHANCE . rivals*** except (Copy That and Bolt For Brilliance obviously)

I always found being behind the others (10m or 20m handicap) an advantage to be honest. You could see what everyone was doing and nobody was gunna swing sideways and sit in your gig. (they used to pack em tight off the front and there wasn't much room)

Well these races for be the Open class only . Rowe Cup was Very unfortunately a Very small field this year. Why take on Sundees Son and Bolt for Brilliance off the front ??? EXAMPLE : 'Doff your Cap' connections gave up and just sent him off overseas after his very last start in NZ. (the dominion last year at Addington) which absolutely 'Fried ' a few horses with Sundee trotting 3.56 2 miles. (should of been off 20m) Bolt for Brilliance after winning the 2 mile Rowe Cup should be on 10m now. just makes sense to me. Doff your Cap now doing better with a fairer handicap in Aus. I Feel sorry for the connections losing their horse really 😪. Mark Purdon DIDN"T even Bother starting Oscar Bonevena , even after he Won a Group 1 trot just days before the Dominion beating Bolt For Brilliance ??##??. ALARM BELLS should be ringing saying there is something wrong with the Dominion handicapping when a Group 1 winner gives it the Flick ? ?? terrible state of affairs. Oscar won a support race off 20m instead , on Dominion Day. SELF ASSURED with his 2020 Nz Cup win and 2022 Auckland Cup wins over 2 mile stands should be on 20m this year IMO.

Every day somewhere Pacing races are 'Handicapped ' even if mobile starts with preferential draws , lifetime earnings , all sorts of things Juniors onboard, sex and age , you name it they handicap it .....Mikey. ALREADY happening. Won't hurt the BIG PLAYERS in these BIG races . Put Sundee on 20m IMO lol.... They are running those FEATURE races in this discussion from a Stand. NZ Cup, AKLD Cup, Rowe Cup , and the Dominion H'cap. (sorry that's what it used to be called anyway) Yulestar, Lordship, Highland Fling, Cardigan Bay, Il Vicolo, Luxury Liner, False Step, Johnny Globe, Harold Logan , Elsu, Christian Cullen, Chokin, Christopher Vance, Young Quinn , Arapaho, Lyell Creek, Diamond Field, No Response, Easton Light, Single Cash ,Take A Moment , David Moss, Tussle , Scotch Notch, Scotch Tar, Stormy Morn and heaps more great horses ALL won these 4 Races off Handicaps of 10m or more . It makes these races great !!!!

'utter rubbish' as you want to put it. why do i bother then ? my opinion is fine . Human athletics is NOTHING to DO with horse racing. Galloper's are horses (like Pacers and Trotters) mate. ?? agreed? They have everything to do with it . They are handicapped every weekend ? agreed? To make the races more even chance for all !! agreed? Just because you think the Cox Plate is a better race than the Melbourne Cup .who cares. It's a big race as are the Caulfield Cup, Nz Cup and Auckland Cup ? Lol . good grief. WE ARE Talking about HANDICAPS . I'm sure most readers can see the Comparison to Weighting the Better gallopers >>> to handicapping the Better Pacers and Trotters to have a level chance for AS MANY RUNNERS AS POSSIBLE . That's racing. A guy running at the Olympics ??? hahahaha... Do your orange 's look like apples Michael . NOTHING TO DO WITH HANDICAPS in the Nz Cup, Akld Cup ,Rowe Cup or Dominion. Important sentence Michael , is the Highlighted one above >>>>>>>>>>>>>

Correct !! that is clarified then. Good enough for Verry Eleegant and Makybe Diva to be attempted to be handicapped out of the race in Caulfield and Melbourne Cups ????? but still win/won . Handicaps are done in COMPARISON to their rivals . Usain Bolt and Tyson are human athletes , so nothing to do with horses. you can argue with yourself about them. Now WHY shouldn't the Time-honoured Nz Cup, Auckland Cup (still both surely handicaps at the gallops over there?) be treated differently to the galloping version . ? Also Rowe Cup and Dominion for trotters . Tougher than gallopers some of those horses..... they can handle it Michael. (Sundees Son near best trotter ever possibly) 3200m is Loooong enough to make up handicaps . good enough for the gallops , good enough for the pacers and trotters I say , in those 2 mile races. Why should Sundee and Self Assured being gifted the races (when bucket-loads of champions weren't by being adequately handicapped ???// ?)

Because there's plenty of races to put them in Brodster. I'm a little surprised you were picking on those 4 trotters being past their best. They could of all competed togeather in NZ and ...... You could watch the same result as what was is in Brisbane the other night with WEE MAN TROUBLE and his compatriots, IF ONLY they would schedule a Race for them EVERY WEEK to race in. That is what you need there matey. I rate the horsemen training and driving them (both countries as very good) that's why they are all winning !!. Alas CREDIT MASTER for example (who ran 2nd to Wee Man Trouble) only found 10 races to race in , in the whole year !!!!!!???? last year in the North Island , nearly all off handicaps . and Won 1 race. The Aussie trainer this year NOT Afraid to travel , and has been all over Victoria , Won a Group 1 at Menangle NSW, and now up in Brisbane . 3 wins , a 2nd (on Sat night), and 3 x 4ths in 7 starts for $73,000. well done to him !!! why is he past his best as you say ? nothing wrong with those 4 trotters Brodster? . PEAK form of their lives IMO.

Why is he stunned I wonder ? was a tried and proven formula for a century in some of those races. I don't mind if they have them mobile FFA 3200m in those 4 races (so they all get away safely) and random barrier. but if running as a STANDING START (as they are now) might as well give all the runners a chance ? by putting the Previous winners of those races 10m and 20 m behind ? shirly? Sundee's Son and Self Assured just keep on winning them one after another otherwise. (having said that Self Assured did get beat in the last NZ Cup into 2nd place , and Sundee did get 'bolted' the other day by Tony and BFB in the Rowe Cup. Go figure lol...😅)

To answer your question Brodie , what you have, and Australia does not is Bloodstock Agents. We have no-one (agencies) looking at horses here to sell to Nz cllients . (a fading industry there?) But there's always smart kiwi marketing (bloodstock) people who have Australian markets to sell to. I worked with South Auckland Standardbred Agency with John Devlin and and flew out of NewZealand with a plane load of purchases for Australian clients including Lightning Blue who had won his only 2 year old start at Morrinsville. Later returned to win the NZ Cup and Interdominion at Addington. 'Nothing' we flew out with, was well past their best as you often think. crikey even Amazing Dream has flown out now. There was a market ... so some smart kiwis sold to it (and still do mate) ... and sadly we left Nz trotting in decline because of it. I really regret being involved in it now , seeing the result of these sales . (small fields , not many training , and all the problems left in Nz harness ) hope it doesn't become 'inferior' or anything??.

Sort of want to agree with some of that and sort of not. A horse is a horse , there have been several world class performers bred in Oz that can match it with Nz over the years. You being in Nz, is exposed to mainly the Nz ones and only had glimpses of Popular Alm , Westburn Grant, Gammalite, Pure Steel , Maori's Idol, Blacks A Fake , Beautide and 100's more............, inferior certainly not a word I would use. Yes what you say is true in that it's a big nation and easier to place your horse in Aus. Indeed racing in Brisbane we can pick and choose what day of the week we want to race in general , every week. It's very good. But please don't forget , even though you have some horses 'past their best' as you put it with your 4 trotters last night , The VAST MAJORITY are purchased as young developing horses over the decades , to be able to have a whole racing career ahead of them.

Made it back for Addington today I see , so had a look at his 3 drives. All very good. close 2nd in the last race of the day. 4th in the junior drivers race (was in front 100m out but faded late) and a well judged win here with Sonic Reign. It did gallop for 100m for him at the start and settled back with the 10m runners who ran 2nd and 3rd in the end with 2 more JUNIOR DRIVERS. All the old boys were going silly up front early , so the young lads have run the trifecta driving with patience and great ability really. so like Cam Hart and Jack Callaghan in Oz (quinella in the Group 1 grand circuit race last night) there are young drivers coming through with style in both Oz and Nz. 1 4 Sonic Reign 4 fr 4,950.00 8/8 3-17.7 C J Dalgety (J) Lyn Prendergast 2 9 Loyalist 4 10m 1,395.00 2/2 3-17.0 0.80 B T Hope (J) Greg & Nina Hope 3 10 Proviseur 5 10m 855.00 10/10 3-17.2 1.70 W J House (J) Michael House 4 1 Kingsdown Atom 1 fr 540.00 6/5 3-18.0 1.80 J C Morrison Mike Curry 5 11 Jazelle 6 10m 157.50 3/3 3-17.4 2.60 John R Dunn Matt Purvis 6 8 Rake 3 10m 157.50 4/4 3-17.6 3.50 B N Orange Michael House 7 6 Bettor Believe It 1 10m 157.50 1/1 3-17.7 4.20 C J DeFilippi Colin & Julie DeFilippi 8 2 Arizonawildcat 2 fr 157.50 9/9 3-18.6 4.60 K T Newman (J) Dean Halliday 9 5 Megarock 5 fr 157.50 5/6 3-19.1 7.20 G D O'Reilly Brian Kerr 10 3 Percy 3 fr 157.50 7/7 3-19.4 8.80 Brad Williamson Amber Hoffman 11 7 Mils McArdle 2 10m 157.50 11/11 3-30.1 66.20 R D Holmes Chris Coutts

Oz Been buying horses ever since Village Kid did so well in the west. I think you are being a bit hard on your trainers by saying they're not competitive there. There would of been many many hours put in to the preparation of those 4 trotters in their early days in NZ and the Oz trainers can capitilize on that good work and keep them going in later racing life . like Tornado Valley recent years.? (They should send Temporale to Gaths to win same races he did) Horses all winning in both countries and show-casing the talents of the horsemen in both countries. So all good mate. fine trainers and drivers everywhere. As for the breeding well , It's ALL AMERICAN isn't it?. There are Bettor's Delight (Such as Leap of Fame the Derby winner last night) and Art Major's (e.g Majestic Cruiser winning the Grand Circuit event last night) , Sweet Lou's , AlwaysBMiki , being bred in Both countries , so it doesn't really matter any more . Wouldn't say our latest Oz stars are inferior at all . the Oaks winner beating the NZ horse Amore Vita in the Oaks last night is by Courage Under Fire ?, but bred in Australia . so again , doesn't really matter any more. Just enjoy the racing i reckon. Majestic Cruiser and Leap to Fame both very impressive last night.

While they still go around it's a great bit of traditional entertainment, and you can admire the skill level and horse-power on display. There was still some NZ interest I thought , so tried to generate some support here , but we didn't have the travelling trainers like last year when American Dealer won the Derby, Krug had a crack, Copy That and of course Amazing Dream taking the 2 big Group 1's. Quite a few Nz owners had a go , they put horses with the Oz trainers these days which makes sense I guess. Alta Orlando is STILL earning big dollars for example. and owned by NZ leading trainers. Luke Whittaker won a Group 1 too, a young Nz driver, winning the trot like Anthony Butt did last year. Bring on the NZ Cup and FFA carnival Addington Nov . can't wait.