TAB For Ever Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Well compared to the rest of the world NZ ranks 5th in terms of gambling. Yes Australians lead the pack BUT the difference in NZ is we spend disproportionately more now on other forms of gambling rather than racing. So I don't think the DNA argument holds up that well. Get with the program Chief and don't nitpick on every typo.....the DNA is reference to racing DNA. Last weeks LOTTO prize as advertised widely was $17 million ! ps...and where the little hearts gone from my last two posts , you breaking my heart now ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAB For Ever Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Whereas the administrative suits in NZ are intent on closing racing down in most of the towns. BTW how many tracks in Australia don't meet Mesara's unpublished standard? Dunno ,but fill us in.....they certainly have a lot of cancellations ,abandonments and late changes ...about 12 a week of late ! Is it for poor infrastructure of for extreme weather ? But us Kiwis stand Aussie in very high regards , often comparing us with them which is a bit futile cos of the size difference and their built in Racing DNA. We also idolise their wagering/bookies etc . Funny then when Aussie leadership takes over our TAB , we turn on them and moan our arses off ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAB For Ever Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: It didn't make sense. Didn't work for RACE did it? The Westland Racing Club was surviving quite well. Why close it down? No one pretends that all decisions made , such as the above two , were perfect. Westland probably just unlucky as apart from the Kumara meeting the others only fair performers re Stakes etc and with all the trots meetings on Dec/Jan as well the TAB just got tired of taking the truck and tote staff etc over there. Westland seemed to have cash in bank etc ....they were promised they could hold their meeting elsewhere but quickly disposed of the Track asset to the District Council as a Xmas gift and donated Cash as well and also 'loaned' cash to other Clubs on Coast. The track will provide some housing , if folk want to move to Hokitika ! The Coast people seem to prefer Harness ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted May 15 Author Share Posted May 15 7 hours ago, TAB For Ever said: Dunno ,but fill us in.....they certainly have a lot of cancellations ,abandonments and late changes ...about 12 a week of late ! Can you provide proof of that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted May 15 Author Share Posted May 15 8 hours ago, TAB For Ever said: But us Kiwis stand Aussie in very high regards , often comparing us with them which is a bit futile cos of the size difference and their built in Racing DNA. Bollocks. The DNA argument is BS. OZ are the biggest gamblers in the world and race wagering isn't the largest recipient of that gambling in OZ. If we extrapolate the 1 in 254 own a share in a horse that equates to 20,000 people in NZ having a share in a horse. Quite achievable I would think given The Boys Get Paid approach to syndication. 8 hours ago, TAB For Ever said: We also idolise their wagering/bookies etc . Funny then when Aussie leadership takes over our TAB , we turn on them and moan our arses off ! No we are customers demanding more service. What's wrong with that? Plus some of us have memories of other Australian carpet baggers coming here swinging their swagger and doing SFA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted May 15 Author Share Posted May 15 7 hours ago, TAB For Ever said: No one pretends that all decisions made , such as the above two , were perfect. They were far from perfect. No excuses for them. But as you've said you don't actually adhere to getting it right the first time. 7 hours ago, TAB For Ever said: Westland probably just unlucky as apart from the Kumara meeting the others only fair performers re Stakes etc and with all the trots meetings on Dec/Jan as well the TAB just got tired of taking the truck and tote staff etc over there. WHAT the TAB got TIRED?! If you believe that do you find it acceptable? Perhaps they should get jobs in OZ and travel hours to far flung race courses. 8 hours ago, TAB For Ever said: Westland seemed to have cash in bank etc ....they were promised they could hold their meeting elsewhere but quickly disposed of the Track asset to the District Council as a Xmas gift and donated Cash as well and also 'loaned' cash to other Clubs on Coast. The track will provide some housing , if folk want to move to Hokitika ! They DID have cash in the bank. They were solvent unlike the TAB. Why would they move from their home track and disconnect from their local community? Why did they need to? The only reason is some suits saw a potential quick gain by grabbing their assets. Well that didn't happen did it. Actually has it happened for any club assets since the Mesara Report and Winnies land grab legislation was passed? Oh that's right "good things take time". Well there's another saying "time isn't on side". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAB For Ever Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: They were far from perfect. No excuses for them. But as you've said you don't actually adhere to getting it right the first time. WHAT the TAB got TIRED?! If you believe that do you find it acceptable? Perhaps they should get jobs in OZ and travel hours to far flung race courses. They DID have cash in the bank. They were solvent unlike the TAB. Why would they move from their home track and disconnect from their local community? Why did they need to? The only reason is some suits saw a potential quick gain by grabbing their assets. Well that didn't happen did it. Actually has it happened for any club assets since the Mesara Report and Winnies land grab legislation was passed? Oh that's right "good things take time". Well there's another saying "time isn't on side". Pretty much correct.......desperate times called for some desperate measures. I said Westland had cash in bank etc. But a bit pointless for TAB /NZ Racing to put so many resources /costs into the Coast when overall it running at bigger loss and taking bigger toll on their staff around Holiday time !Aside from Kumara and Harness the other meetings not up to much and over reliant on North Island horses travelling. But they gone Westland gone since about 2019 so part of History and not worth banging on about ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAB For Ever Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Can you provide proof of that? It clearly stated on website ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murray Fish Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 19 hours ago, TAB For Ever said: NZ Racing had to step in with promotions like summer Christmas at Racesand 'interislandersummer 'series etc. pardon, Are you serious! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murray Fish Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 On 14/05/2024 at 3:47 PM, Freda said: But it was never clear just how much too many there were, or why. Compared to where.? Never did we see costings to bear out such ideas. In 95 when I spend a year 'researching racing ownership in nz', where I had full access to all info in the NZRC Head Office Library, it rather appeared that here was a Industry with very little 'research', (a few Royal Commissions, lots of moaning contained in them!) almost nothing on the costs etc or owning etc.. I believe that was because, especially in the first 30 years of the TAB's life, it was very much, CASH being counted at the end of the day, a few expensive here and there. odds on? there were never any costing done... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murray Fish Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 On 14/05/2024 at 5:53 PM, TAB For Ever said: Good question...its a term I've seen mentioned on here a few times ! Sometimes also referred to as 'suits'. Some group who we love blaming....a council , a conference or a Board . Actually, try using the ruling class, who as well as having economic control, also have hegemonic over info and propaganda that is acceptable within the industry! racing is a classic for understanding that sort of thing! ps, they love having others! chirping the party line for their interests... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Agent Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 I don't and never will buy the notion that "there are too many racecourses in New Zealand". As Freda said, compared to what? If a racecourse sits all year for one or two race meetings, so what? Yes, we know Kumara makes money but, let us remember it has the coast's plum Saturday date. Also, it is rubbish to say all clubs no longer have volunteers, have no money in the bank and do not engage with their community. That is what NZTR want you to think. Some of these organisations have far too much to say about how clubs should be run, many of the mouthpieces having had the influence of Australian, English, Canadian and South African cast offs. And where are those learned bodies now??!! It is abundantly clear that there are definitely not enough racecourses as there have been very few available for use when problems have arisen. RACE has to be the all time worst example of club and racecourse management. I haven't seen many TAB promotions that have been self funding and have lasted the test of time. I find it amazing too that any criticism by customers is regarded as moaning. The attitude is all wrong and whilst nobody is listening, nothing will change, evolve or be fixed. Some speak of how the best communicating trainers are giving the public what they want. Funny then that the trainer almost devoid of any communication skills, Kevin Myers, continues to run a successful business with horses and owners coming out his ears. Maybe culture is the word I've been searching for in respect of the Australian racing scene. The racing participants on the whole come across as more professional. The horses on the whole look better. The crowd is full of young well dressed people. The living wage is probably better than our's. Yes, we can continue to compare ourselves and our industry to the one across the ditch but, apart from the few that can compete at carnival time (and I'm not saying we should not all strive to improve and be the best we can be), is there any reason why we can't do our thing our own way? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingman Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 7 minutes ago, Special Agent said: RACE has to be the all time worst example of club and racecourse management. 100% agree with that comment re RACE Special Agent. Here however is what we are all dealing with. This is a comment from the Venue Plan. Quote "NZTR also acknowledges, in this regard, that ensuring New Zealanders have access to racing was (and remains) one of its guiding principles for its venue plan. However, a balancing act is required when applying the guiding principles, with the result that this principle may be outweighed by other principles in relation to a particular venue".unquote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted May 16 Author Share Posted May 16 6 hours ago, TAB For Ever said: It clearly stated on website ! What website?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted May 16 Author Share Posted May 16 6 hours ago, TAB For Ever said: But a bit pointless for TAB /NZ Racing to put so many resources /costs into the Coast when overall it running at bigger loss and taking bigger toll on their staff around Holiday time !Aside from Kumara and Harness the other meetings not up to much and over reliant on North Island horses travelling. Are you serious? You have no idea what made and could make this industry successful (again). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAB For Ever Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: Are you serious? You have no idea what made and could make this industry successful (again). The smoke coming out of your posts again Chief cos you feel the 'tight five' coming in to support you ! I have some idea, seen a lot with my own eyes...was born in stable ,travelled around a bit ,lived in areas which let racing die ,spoken to many educated derelicts and filled in the gaps. Surely I have some idea ,probably as good as the next average guy/gal on here ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Agent Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 3 hours ago, Wingman said: "NZTR also acknowledges, in this regard, that ensuring New Zealanders have access to racing was (and remains) one of its guiding principles for its venue plan. However, a balancing act is required when applying the guiding principles, with the result that this principle may be outweighed by other principles in relation to a particular venue" What is that saying our parents used to say? If bullshit was music, they'd be a brass band. The nonsense never stops!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingman Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 Who is this tight five you repeatedly refer to TAB For Ever? ( aka Oscar, aka Jesus ) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 55 minutes ago, TAB For Ever said: The smoke coming out of your posts again Chief cos you feel the 'tight five' coming in to support you ! I have some idea, seen a lot with my own eyes...was born in stable ,travelled around a bit ,lived in areas which let racing die ,spoken to many educated derelicts and filled in the gaps. Surely I have some idea ,probably as good as the next average guy/gal on here ! wouldn't get to dismayed mate. I think Chiefy is a little jealous of your fine contributions on this site that have shown great knowledge of all things racing , including the participants, clubs, tracks, horses (of both codes, attendances, betting, and even the 'dreaded' topic of Track conditions. a favoured Chief topic. he is running a long nicely too (in 2nd place 😂🤣👍🏇) funnily enough I could help with an answer to his posing question of what could make the industry great again. Well looks when it went downhill a little. (apart from NZ weather that makes people attend their local pubs and clubs like RSL's etc. rather than get blown around at the race-course. they get special catering there with meals and deals and entertainment. Of course the beautiful horses are 'on-screen' on Sky channel to bet on all around our great nations. BUT the gambling dollar changed in the 80's and 90's with Lotto and Pokies coming in . SO Chief My lad . Burn the Pokies, Can the Lotto and get the gambling dollar back . (might have to improve the state of the economy as well 😁😎) and Bob's your Uncle > the mighty horse racing industry Will Be Great Again !! problem solvered . 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAB For Ever Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 2 hours ago, Gammalite said: wouldn't get to dismayed mate. I think Chiefy is a little jealous of your fine contributions on this site that have shown great knowledge of all things racing , including the participants, clubs, tracks, horses (of both codes, attendances, betting, and even the 'dreaded' topic of Track conditions. a favoured Chief topic. he is running a long nicely too (in 2nd place 😂🤣👍🏇) funnily enough I could help with an answer to his posing question of what could make the industry great again. Well looks when it went downhill a little. (apart from NZ weather that makes people attend their local pubs and clubs like RSL's etc. rather than get blown around at the race-course. they get special catering there with meals and deals and entertainment. Of course the beautiful horses are 'on-screen' on Sky channel to bet on all around our great nations. BUT the gambling dollar changed in the 80's and 90's with Lotto and Pokies coming in . SO Chief My lad . Burn the Pokies, Can the Lotto and get the gambling dollar back . (might have to improve the state of the economy as well 😁😎) and Bob's your Uncle > the mighty horse racing industry Will Be Great Again !! problem solvered . Take it easy on Chief....he may not always be right but he will always be the Chief. Old Chinese proverb...it better to own the horse than know how to ride it ! Another big night of Harness coming up Gamma , @ 2 venues ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAB For Ever Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 9 hours ago, Murray Fish said: pardon, Are you serious! Serious about what Murray ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAB For Ever Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 9 hours ago, Murray Fish said: In 95 when I spend a year 'researching racing ownership in nz', where I had full access to all info in the NZRC Head Office Library, it rather appeared that here was a Industry with very little 'research', (a few Royal Commissions, lots of moaning contained in them!) almost nothing on the costs etc or owning etc.. I believe that was because, especially in the first 30 years of the TAB's life, it was very much, CASH being counted at the end of the day, a few expensive here and there. odds on? there were never any costing done... 95 is almost 30 years ago....any learnings from back then relevant today. Are you saying those owning horses had no idea of the costs involved ? And surely Clubs had to forward their Financials to the Racing Conference etc . Most Clubs went thru tough times in mid-1970's when inflation on rise. Despite this horse population continued to rise and extra race permits were given out. 1975 for example Clubs performed poorly.68 Clubs lost $600 k while 20 were profitable but only to the tune of $51 k total.Yet horses increased 16% , partly cos Syndication [up to 25 people per horse] had just been introduce. The Industry repeatedly approached Government for tax relief , so the Conference/Authority must have been aware of all things Financial. By mid 80's Racecourse classification started ,and at last the real push for centralisation had started...More permits changed hands .The Authority and Conference said that resources needed to be concentrated where results were best. So many have been under that threat right up to current time, so it took another 30 years to start change . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 47 minutes ago, TAB For Ever said: By mid 80's Racecourse classification started ,and at last the real push for centralisation had started...More permits changed hands .The Authority and Conference said that resources needed to be concentrated where results were best. So many have been under that threat right up to current time, so it took another 30 years to start change . Actually, it started well before that. A club I was close to, the Amberley Racing Club, moved from its Broomfield venue to Rangiora in 1974 under what was then known as the Centralisation Scheme. That ended well didn't it? Assets confiscated, community control lost and the new venue closed for racing. For what gain to the industry? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 5 hours ago, curious said: Actually, it started well before that. A club I was close to, the Amberley Racing Club, moved from its Broomfield venue to Rangiora in 1974 under what was then known as the Centralisation Scheme. That ended well didn't it? Assets confiscated, community control lost and the new venue closed for racing. For what gain to the industry? Obviously, none. Just wondering, what was the rationale from the club's point of view for the move at that time? It wouldn't have been a forced move, surely? Rangiora hosted the club's days for years, presumably successfully from both sides. My memory of Amberley was of attending on one of its last, if not the last, day there. Working for Peter Jones at the time, we took a Sedgewick colt there which Peter confidently expected to win. Also have a recollection of passing Maurice Thornley on the road, head under the car bonnet. He just managed to miss the hurdle race, which was the source of much amusement later on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 I was at uni at the time so not party to all the decision making but I think a genuine belief by members then that centralisation was the way to go for a one day a year club. I think either my Dad or Uncle was president at the time. Better track and facilities, a share in the track and the horse and buggy days were long over, so an extra 10 minutes drive to Rangiora wasn't a biggie for Amberley resident members. I bet that did cause some laughter, Maurice managing to miss the hurdle race! Some great stories were told about events there. One I remember from my grandfather. A grey horse in the opening hurdle event and a thick May fog jumped the first and pulled into the big pines at the top of the straight. Joined in the following round, jumped the last, emerging from the fog, and bolted in, much to the surprise of the rider of the second horse who thought he was well in front! 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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