Good luck with Tuesdays

[Westview]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

So what needs to be done to turn it around?

Three areas in my opinion:

1.  Improve access to the product;

2.  Fix the handicapping;

3.  Improve low end stakes by redistributing the top end downwards.

HRNZ - you only have three tasks.

How about promoting our product not just to the participants. Highlighting our champions , telling the story of our industry,  nah way to simple.

[Brodie]

Brad Steele obvious has very low expectations for NZ harness!

Happy with the numbers lol!

tote pools are the lowest ever I would say?

Place pools under $2k, yeah good idea to race Cambridge on a Tuesday night!

Lunacy!

[Rangatira]

5 hours ago, Westview said:

How about promoting our product not just to the participants. Highlighting our champions , telling the story of our industry,  nah way to simple.

Load older races to website.

[Brodie]

Brilliant and very encouraging Cambridge.

Seven races and so 21 fixed odds placing odds.

Only 2 gorses paid over $2.00 and they were only just over $2.

19 of the 21 fixed odds place odds paid under $2!!!!!

What a dismal failure for Cambridge and harness racing.

[Gammalite]

11 hours ago, Brodie said:

Brilliant and very encouraging Cambridge.

Seven races and so 21 fixed odds placing odds.

Only 2 gorses paid over $2.00 and they were only just over $2.

19 of the 21 fixed odds place odds paid under $2!!!!!

What a dismal failure for Cambridge and harness racing.

crying as usual mate.  by the time you got to the last sentence anyway (should of just stuck with just your first sentence 😂😎)

Why don't you just do a ''normal 'person thing and bet on some gallopers then ? instead of trying to Lampoon the few trots races that are left for those poor participants. you must really hate them. 

Cambridge Gallops only has total of 6 races today . Why aren't you shooting them down with Lunacy claims ??

Tell ya what . here's some tips to get you a quid and be not so Bitter.

After all the ULTIMATE FOCUS to you is being able to get a place bet on?. 'Ultimate Focus Race 4 at $2 place. excellent 💰.

You want TOP DOLLAR ? get on him in Race 5 then . double up your winnings. 😁💰💰

and bring it home with 'Hoard The Bourbon' with a Great little Aussie jock on board in Race 6 , the last race. And you can then sit back with all the winning bets with a nice Bourbon to celebrate 🥃. cheers to that !!💰💰💰.

There we go mate. some to help you out through all the Doom and Gloom of NZ racing. 🥇  

 

 

[Brodie]

7 hours ago, Gammalite said:

crying as usual mate.  by the time you got to the last sentence anyway (should of just stuck with just your first sentence 😂😎)

Why don't you just do a ''normal 'person thing and bet on some gallopers then ? instead of trying to Lampoon the few trots races that are left for those poor participants. you must really hate them. 

Cambridge Gallops only has total of 6 races today . Why aren't you shooting them down with Lunacy claims ??

Tell ya what . here's some tips to get you a quid and be not so Bitter.

After all the ULTIMATE FOCUS to you is being able to get a place bet on?. 'Ultimate Focus Race 4 at $2 place. excellent 💰.

You want TOP DOLLAR ? get on him in Race 5 then . double up your winnings. 😁💰💰

and bring it home with 'Hoard The Bourbon' with a Great little Aussie jock on board in Race 6 , the last race. And you can then sit back with all the winning bets with a nice Bourbon to celebrate 🥃. cheers to that !!💰💰💰.

There we go mate. some to help you out through all the Doom and Gloom of NZ racing. 🥇  

 

 

Not crying at all Gamma, just telling it the way it is!

The thing is by putting on Cambridge on a Tuesday is lunacy and not in the best interests at all for Cambridge, the harness industry or the Punters!

Why not put it on a Thursday as well as some Friday nights?

Tuesday was never going to work and the betting figures show how unpopular it is going to be!

The new CEO is encouraged??

[Gammalite]

2 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Not crying at all Gamma, just telling it the way it is!

The thing is by putting on Cambridge on a Tuesday is lunacy and not in the best interests at all for Cambridge, the harness industry or the Punters!

Why not put it on a Thursday as well as some Friday nights?

Tuesday was never going to work and the betting figures show how unpopular it is going to be!

The new CEO is encouraged??

Sorry mate , those galloping horses look like they got zero. maybe we should go to the dogs ? 😆

Yeah  if you think that is a bad day to race on a Tuesday then that might be so I guess. I always wondered why they don't race Saturday nights in New Zealand ? A lot of folk that like to bet (like Trademen and office staff and that) might be more likely to look for somewhere to go out to dinner and enjoy the racing after a busy weeks work , on a Saturday when they're not working , so not tired or anything , and can have a drink or 2 ?

Albion Park Brissy is quite lucky and gets a lot of the galloping folk who had a win at Eagle Farm or Doomben during the day , looking for a quiet bar, dinner , entertainment on the way home with their winnings and friends each Saturday.  ( next suburb from gallops tracks 10 mins away)

Saturday night TV must be rubbish in New Zealand ? it is here anyway😆 , and people are always looking for somewhere nice to go for a meal and entertainment for their weekend treat. I guess their local RSL and that sort of place's, does good trade, so why Not get the trotting dollar then/ there? that would be more encouraging for the CEO ? .

( the Aussie trots start a lot earlier than they used to so the early races would be on the screens too , to get the Entain mob some more Saturday night bucks. ) Probably everyone still playing those stupid Pokie machines though.🙄   

[Brodie]

3 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Sorry mate , those galloping horses look like they got zero. maybe we should go to the dogs ? 😆

Yeah  if you think that is a bad day to race on a Tuesday then that might be so I guess. I always wondered why they don't race Saturday nights in New Zealand ? A lot of folk that like to bet (like Trademen and office staff and that) might be more likely to look for somewhere to go out to dinner and enjoy the racing after a busy weeks work , on a Saturday when they're not working , so not tired or anything , and can have a drink or 2 ?

Albion Park Brissy is quite lucky and gets a lot of the galloping folk who had a win at Eagle Farm or Doomben during the day , looking for a quiet bar, dinner , entertainment on the way home with their winnings and friends each Saturday.  ( next suburb from gallops tracks 10 mins away)

Saturday night TV must be rubbish in New Zealand ? it is here anyway😆 , and people are always looking for somewhere nice to go for a meal and entertainment for their weekend treat. I guess their local RSL and that sort of place's, does good trade, so why Not get the trotting dollar then/ there? that would be more encouraging for the CEO ? .

( the Aussie trots start a lot earlier than they used to so the early races would be on the screens too , to get the Entain mob some more Saturday night bucks. ) Probably everyone still playing those stupid Pokie machines though.🙄   

No I dont touch gallops or dogs, form too hard to follow!

Used to go to Riccarton many a long year ago but before fixed odds was introduced in NZ.

Saturday nights would be far more popular to attract new people on course, however they  arent willing to apart from Easter!

 

 

[TAB For Ever]

On 8/13/2024 at 12:02 AM, Slippery Slope said:

Wouldn't it be refreshing if HRNZ explained why, given how we are depending on them to maximise turnover with their handicapping and field size policies, they chose to split fields and gave us 7 races with an average field size of 6.6. One less race would have given us 7 and 8 horse fields throughout, not great but the bare minimum surely. 

Using a word everyone uses to explain their negativity toward NZ Harness these days.....subsidising !

Running these smaller fields is Entain subsidising the owners giving them/us a better chance at getting a win !

For years Harness in NZ has been trending down ,while costs trend up....the return to Owners had got unacceptably low.So weighing up this dire financial return with the thrill of owning a winner Entain have increased the number of races at lower end plus upped the high profile races in stakes to attract more at the high end in Cups/Derbies/Oaks/Slots etc. Thinking about either dims the grim return....many trainers don't want plodders either so are aggressive sellers to refresh stock !

Entain the the ultimate current main subsidiser ! They also obviously are trying with a surge in interest in Auckland by trying to take ATC off life support. It remains a DECENT venue...and I'm sure the other main players ,the big Breeders support that strategy. Their role is overlooked ,big breeders referred to as the RICH.....in reality it can't be easy with all the costs involved. Notably most of the big breeders are supported by other profitable businesses. So it easy to see how small breeders have largely given up. If you breed to a local or lesser known stallion you need to race it often or take a hit which soon kills the enthusiasm. Plus the big breeders are usually the main sponsors as Cash now hard to get out of other sponsors .

Yes ,everyone subsidising Harness in North but Canterbury harness maybe not subsidising as much as is claimed.

Unsure why Cambridge not rated higher in Harness circles and have been running miserable stakes for years.Yes they ran great Jewels and Slot nights well attended but maybe it surprising they hadn't built up more equity/cash .Maybe they should have built a new covered horsebarn in recent years when HRNZ was punishing ATC for poor performance. Too late now and they seem to drifting backwards! 

All this seems to be academic now ,but without Entain calling the shots Harness in North would be definitely on life support.Comparing any area with Hutt Park and Forbury Park quite telling !

[Westview]

8 hours ago, TAB For Ever said:

Using a word everyone uses to explain their negativity toward NZ Harness these days.....subsidising !

Running these smaller fields is Entain subsidising the owners giving them/us a better chance at getting a win !

For years Harness in NZ has been trending down ,while costs trend up....the return to Owners had got unacceptably low.So weighing up this dire financial return with the thrill of owning a winner Entain have increased the number of races at lower end plus upped the high profile races in stakes to attract more at the high end in Cups/Derbies/Oaks/Slots etc. Thinking about either dims the grim return....many trainers don't want plodders either so are aggressive sellers to refresh stock !

Entain the the ultimate current main subsidiser ! They also obviously are trying with a surge in interest in Auckland by trying to take ATC off life support. It remains a DECENT venue...and I'm sure the other main players ,the big Breeders support that strategy. Their role is overlooked ,big breeders referred to as the RICH.....in reality it can't be easy with all the costs involved. Notably most of the big breeders are supported by other profitable businesses. So it easy to see how small breeders have largely given up. If you breed to a local or lesser known stallion you need to race it often or take a hit which soon kills the enthusiasm. Plus the big breeders are usually the main sponsors as Cash now hard to get out of other sponsors .

Yes ,everyone subsidising Harness in North but Canterbury harness maybe not subsidising as much as is claimed.

Unsure why Cambridge not rated higher in Harness circles and have been running miserable stakes for years.Yes they ran great Jewels and Slot nights well attended but maybe it surprising they hadn't built up more equity/cash .Maybe they should have built a new covered horsebarn in recent years when HRNZ was punishing ATC for poor performance. Too late now and they seem to drifting backwards! 

All this seems to be academic now ,but without Entain calling the shots Harness in North would be definitely on life support.Comparing any area with Hutt Park and Forbury Park quite telling !

You are right subsidizing is exactly what is going on the problem is what happens in 4yrs time when the guaranteed subsidies stop, do entain go again with an annual 10 mil , is our turnover up enough to generate our own money , are we using any of that 10 million to create sustainable growth?

Are there smarter ways of creating a sustainable industry?

[Chief Stipe]

8 hours ago, TAB For Ever said:

All this seems to be academic now ,but without Entain calling the shots Harness in North would be definitely on life support.Comparing any area with Hutt Park and Forbury Park quite telling !

Do Entain "call the shots"?  If they do shouldn't HRNZ be "calling the shots"?

[Chief Stipe]

17 hours ago, TAB For Ever said:

For years Harness in NZ has been trending down ,while costs trend up....the return to Owners had got unacceptably low.So weighing up this dire financial return with the thrill of owning a winner Entain have increased the number of races at lower end plus upped the high profile races in stakes to attract more at the high end in Cups/Derbies/Oaks/Slots etc. Thinking about either dims the grim return....many trainers don't want plodders either so are aggressive sellers to refresh stock

Why up the stakes in high end races?  It has been proven it doesn't get larger or better quality fields it only increases the net loss in revenue.

Why not raise low end stakes instead as well as adjusting handicapping so horses stay racing longer?  Increasing the number of races is pointless if the number of horses available are declining.  Unless you didn't know horses can only race so many times a year.

The Cambridge fields prove that increasing the number of available races doesn't attract horses because they are not there or owners and trainers have figured that they can get into races with higher stakes more easily.

 

[Westview]

8 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Do Entain "call the shots"?  If they do shouldn't HRNZ be "calling the shots"?

Strong recommendations I'd say.

[Taku Umanga]

On 13/08/2024 at 11:29 PM, Brodie said:

Brilliant and very encouraging Cambridge.

Seven races and so 21 fixed odds placing odds.

Only 2 gorses paid over $2.00 and they were only just over $2.

19 of the 21 fixed odds place odds paid under $2!!!!!

What a dismal failure for Cambridge and harness racing.

$221 turnover according to a M House post of Facebook land.

[Doomed]

3 hours ago, Taku Umanga said:

$221 turnover according to a M House post of Facebook land.

Would that fund 3 of the races?

[Slippery Slope]

1 hour ago, Doomed said:

Would that fund 3 of the races?

About that. Last season first 2 Manawatu meetings

- 23 Oct average field size 8.4, 5 races. 4 favourites won, $ 252k turnover, Gross betting revenue a loss of $51k because of favourites predominating, HRNZ stakes subsidy $51k, net difference ($102k). Not something we would want repeated very often!

- 13 Nov better result. average field size 9, 6 races. 4 favourites won but other 2 were 6th favourites. $234k turnover (but good export), Gross betting revenue a surplus of $28k, HRNZ stakes subsidy $62k, net difference ($34k), so that was c. 3 races stakes subsidies covered.

Cambridge on Tuesday had 3 favourites, 2 2nd favourites a 4th and 5th favourite win the seven races. Less turnover than Manawatu's 6 races last year and with much smaller fields this year. With that mix of favourites hard to see how total meeting GBR gets above $20k- that would be 3 races at best.

For Cambridge its a sad watch and a sad financial outcome if we don't have the horses. As I've said already why HRNZ would split 12 horses in two fields of 6 to lose more money I don't understand. But unless we get transparency from HRNZ on financial outcomes by meeting further down the line like they've given us for the last couple of years we'll just be making an educated guess on how much this new approach comparitively performs over time. 

[mikeynz]

Only 59 moms for Gore Thursday, might be topical to focus on Cambridge/Auckland but things ain't much better in the South.

[Doomed]

1 hour ago, mikeynz said:

Only 59 moms for Gore Thursday, might be topical to focus on Cambridge/Auckland but things ain't much better in the South.

I suspect a lot of them will be targeting the grin race, so they won't be wanting to peak too soon.

[Slippery Slope]

3 hours ago, mikeynz said:

Only 59 moms for Gore Thursday, might be topical to focus on Cambridge/Auckland but things ain't much better in the South.

May be so, 81 started there last year, and the first meeting of the year earlier in the month at Ascot Park was 10% down on numbers vs 2023. Hope it's not a sign of things to come in Southland otherwise our overall share of turnover could be hanging by a (Canterbury) thread even more than it is already.  

[mikeynz]

Seems to me that 6 and 7 race meetings with small fields,(mini meetings)are becoming the norm, I suspect things will pick up in the South later, not sure about Cambridge and with meetings weekly there what affect that has on Manawatu remains to be seen.

You wonder sometimes if it's viable for trackside to cover these meetings, cost the same as for ten races but I guess one positive if you have a horse racing yoh have a good chance of getting some good money, be wise to make hay while the sun shines.

Mini meetings may have their place, not sure though if they would want to be the norm though.

Edited August 19 by mikeynz

[Westview]

7 hours ago, mikeynz said:

Only 59 moms for Gore Thursday, might be topical to focus on Cambridge/Auckland but things ain't much better in the South.

As an owner why would you have a horse if you can't be there to watch it . Southland are definitely on a hiding to nothing with there dates, maybe they could use some of that Forbury money to get some lights and run some meetings twilight when working owners can attend.  P.s don't run them at night in winter.

[Brodie]

I am sure Brad Steele the new CEO is still encouraged by the size no. of the fields at Cambridge this week!

Fields with great numbers of 4, 5 and 6 starters is really going to get the turnover going?

Can they really be serious and afford to run these meetings for very big financial losses week in and week out?

Things are not looking like Entain were hoping!

 

[Gammalite]

But the horses connections aren't running at a loss Brodster. 

They are ALL actually getting some money now. This will keep them interested.

If you lose the remaining participants there won't be ANY Racing At ALL. And then it would be because no silly bugger was putting on any races for them to compete in. 

'Something' is better than 'Nothing' mate. You should know that as a Punter even. even if not  an owner of a race-horse.  the owners need as many runs as they can get from their horse. QLD send them round every week. only way they can pay their way. 

The days of sitting around waiting for the grass tracks season (because they go a bit slower) are over my friend. All those horses would run at a loss over there. Except Dunn's I spose who are game enough to race fast tracks as well as grass. Did away with racing on grass altogether in the North Island I see. Not a FINANcially Viable thing to run Brodster ? you'd love that.  

[Brodie]

5 hours ago, Gammalite said:

But the horses connections aren't running at a loss Brodster. 

They are ALL actually getting some money now. This will keep them interested.

If you lose the remaining participants there won't be ANY Racing At ALL. And then it would be because no silly bugger was putting on any races for them to compete in. 

'Something' is better than 'Nothing' mate. You should know that as a Punter even. even if not  an owner of a race-horse.  the owners need as many runs as they can get from their horse. QLD send them round every week. only way they can pay their way. 

The days of sitting around waiting for the grass tracks season (because they go a bit slower) are over my friend. All those horses would run at a loss over there. Except Dunn's I spose who are game enough to race fast tracks as well as grass. Did away with racing on grass altogether in the North Island I see. Not a FINANcially Viable thing to run Brodster ? you'd love that.  

Yes good for the owner as he will always get money in a 4 horse field.

The thing is Gamma, it is going to just turn the Punter off as not worth the effort when every horse that places is less than $2 top 3!
This arrangement of racing on a Tuesday night is really not going to work, and it never was going to!

The betting figures are going to continue to be disastrous week in and week out unfortunately.

Can not fathom a lot of Entain decisions they have made if they were serious about increasing turnover?

[the galah]

6 hours ago, Gammalite said:

But the horses connections aren't running at a loss Brodster. 

They are ALL actually getting some money now. This will keep them interested.

If you lose the remaining participants there won't be ANY Racing At ALL. And then it would be because no silly bugger was putting on any races for them to compete in. 

'Something' is better than 'Nothing' mate. You should know that as a Punter even. even if not  an owner of a race-horse.  the owners need as many runs as they can get from their horse. QLD send them round every week. only way they can pay their way. 

The days of sitting around waiting for the grass tracks season (because they go a bit slower) are over my friend. All those horses would run at a loss over there. Except Dunn's I spose who are game enough to race fast tracks as well as grass. Did away with racing on grass altogether in the North Island I see. Not a FINANcially Viable thing to run Brodster ? you'd love that.  

you got me typing again gammalite.

What you also have to consider is, what province has had the highest number of participants drop out of the game in the last 5 years?

my guess,and its a pretty safe and obvious guess,and easily enough observed if you lived there, is canterbury is the region.

especially small time trainers and breeders are walking away from harness racing . 

if you lose 2 or 3 from an area like auckland where numbers are already small,those that leave are easily noticed.

on the other hand lose 20 or 30 trainers and breeders a year from a district that had 10 times the size of auckland to start off with,people dont notice as much or place the appropriate degree of long term importance.

Long term, industry leaders need to have the forsight to see that the providers of the mainstay area of harness racings core business income, is eroding at a snowballing rate..

So why do industry leaders implement policies that show they care more about auckland participants than those in canterbury? 

none of the industry decision makers seem to have a logical,justifiable answer to that question?

I think your suggestion of  using the queensland model for racing in the north island is a more realistic possible model.Queensland obviously have far more horses,but they run many $4000 races at redcliffe and $10,000 races at albion park.

The way they increase drivers,trainers,owners incomes and make breeding more viable is  they start their horses more.So while the betting may be limited,stakes paid come closeto matching income received from betting.

Industry leadership should give the auckland stakeholers the choice,either come up with a sustainable model themselves or try the queensland model.

as to tuesday racing.

i have always said its a good idea.

But mini canterbury meetings for canterbury participants are just as important as those in auckland.

its just a matter of the racing getting appropriate lead in sky racing coverage in australia on tuesdays and running at the appropriate timeslots for that.

That point,in my opinion, is such an important factor,and entain no doubt realise that.

i don't understand why people don't place the importance lead in sky racing coverage deserves when discussing what impacts turnovers,whatever the meeting.Why don't our industry leaders or entain ever explain that and explain what they are doing to mensure that happens.

Edited August 20 by the galah