Horse trainer fined $327k after accident which left teenage employee tetraplegic

[Reefton]

2 hours ago, barryb said:

Not quite right.

Defence costs, Reparation, Consequential loss are covered under Statutory Liability by Insurance companies, only the fine itself is excluded.

Insurance brokers encourage most businesses to take it today and have a $1m limit.

What I said was EXACTLY right. You cannot insure for the penalty but you can get cover for the defence costs.

[Chief Stipe]

3 hours ago, Freda said:

Scary indeed.

There is a local trainer facing a similar situation, lord knows how he will fare....I would imagine he's not sleeping well. 

I heard that McKee's total bill is over $400k.

 

[barryb]

1 hour ago, Reefton said:

What I said was EXACTLY right. You cannot insure for the penalty but you can get cover for the defence costs.

Its what you didnt mention that was important though, repartion and consequential loss are covered as well as defence costs.

Fines were also covered until about 15yrs ago.

[Thomass]

5 hours ago, Freda said:

Scary indeed.

There is a local trainer facing a similar situation, lord knows how he will fare....I would imagine he's not sleeping well. 

If, as you think, there appears to be no certified training for work Riders, even though it appears on the NZTR site...

...then it's a massive wake up call for trainers, yes?

If Trainers fail to check a rider's CV as to their capability (tick training systems approved by the Industry's governing body) they're then asking for trouble...no matter how suitable they think a horse appears...

Its like the boss of a Sparky Business sending a new employee to do a job with no qualifications/ experience,...even though the employee insists they're good to go isn't it?

[Reefton]

1 hour ago, barryb said:

Its what you didnt mention that was important though, repartion and consequential loss are covered as well as defence costs.

Fines were also covered until about 15yrs ago.

Well aware of all that.  My original statement was fines weren't covered and they aren't.

One wonders though why McKee's people would not have bargained on that to get reparation imposed rather than fines.  Reparation would possibly be tax deductible as well(depending on how a judgment was worded) where fines certainly aren't.  At the end of the day obviously the fines go to the government - reparation direct to the injured 

Whatever the circumstances this is frightening for the NZ racing industry

 

[SLB2.0]

The judge wanted millions - they were able to bargain a lower fine.

[Chief Stipe]

58 minutes ago, Thomass said:

If, as you think, there appears to be no certified training for work Riders, even though it appears on the NZTR site...

...then it's a massive wake up call for trainers, yes?

If Trainers fail to check a rider's CV as to their capability (tick training systems approved by the Industry's governing body) they're then asking for trouble...no matter how suitable they think a horse appears...

Its like the boss of a Sparky Business sending a new employee to do a job with no qualifications/ experience,...even though the employee insists they're good to go isn't it?

I'm not sure you understand the National Standards/NZQA process.  National Standards have been set to gain QUALIFICATION'S in the racing industry.  It isn't clear how the attainment of those "standards" is measured.  For example to gain a stable hands license isn't it just a simple case of a licensed trainer signing the form?

In my opinion one of NZTR's primary roles is to provide assistance and manage training - rather than looking at what race courses to close!

The following organisation's are certified to provide training (I think the list speaks for itself):

National Certificate in Equine (Stable Procedures) (Level 3) with strands in Harness Racing Stable Assistant, Sporthorse Stable Assistant, Thoroughbred Racing Stable Assistant, and Thoroughbred Racing Track Rider
Community Colleges New Zealand Limited
Kyrewood Equestrian Centre Limited
Nelson Marlborough Institute of Technology
Taratahi Agricultural Training Centre (In Liquidation)
Telford - a Division of Lincoln University
Training For You Limited

 

[Chief Stipe]

Arguably all the training and supervision in the world isn't going to prevent accidents from happening.  Working with racehorse's comes with high risk as is reflected in the ACC levies.

[Thomass]

38 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

I'm not sure you understand the National Standards/NZQA process.  National Standards have been set to gain QUALIFICATION'S in the racing industry.  It isn't clear how the attainment of those "standards" is measured.  For example to gain a stable hands license isn't it just a simple case of a licensed trainer signing the form?

In my opinion one of NZTR's primary roles is to provide assistance and manage training - rather than looking at what race courses to close!

The following organisation's are certified to provide training (I think the list speaks for itself):

National Certificate in Equine (Stable Procedures) (Level 3) with strands in Harness Racing Stable Assistant, Sporthorse Stable Assistant, Thoroughbred Racing Stable Assistant, and Thoroughbred Racing Track Rider
Community Colleges New Zealand Limited
Kyrewood Equestrian Centre Limited
Nelson Marlborough Institute of Technology
Taratahi Agricultural Training Centre (In Liquidation)
Telford - a Division of Lincoln University
Training For You Limited

 

Absolutely.if those are the 'providers' then.as you say HOPELESS.

The TAFE like system that Racing Victoria has is the obviously the way to go.

NZTR could combine the Apprentice school into the Track Riders component and tick off each credit to obtain a basic diploma.

Agree, Trainers can only do so much but as the absolute 'BASE' minimum the requirement for a 'track rider' to provide a CV with bona fide references to establish capability is now paramount.

Trainers can then show their intent was to comply in good faith.

[Chief Stipe]

7 minutes ago, Thomass said:

Trainers can then show their intent was to comply in good faith.

Intent wouldn't get you off.  The odds are stacked when there is an accident.

NZTR need to be more proactive in this area.  Funding the establishment of "standards" isn't enough.  It's just virtue signaling.  

[the galah]

I've read all these interesting replies. 

Maybe I've missed it,but  from  the replies it appears to confirm  there is no recognized certificate of standard of competence which shows the person concerned has demonstrated they are competent to undertake duties listed on the said certificate relating to riding trackwork.  And there is no jockey school accredited with issuing said certificates with worksafe approval even operating..  Surely that would have helped indemnify an employer if a person has an accident? 

It appears there maybe  guidelines which trainers must adhere to when  first asking said riding tasks. In other words oversight,horse,those accompanying etc which last for time frames,but .  once again have they been approved by worksafe, Wouldn't that negate any likelihood of prosecution should an incident occur.?

Would we be having this conversation if this was the case.. 

Or is this an over reaction?

Isn't it either make changes to protect against prosecution,or decide to leave things as they are and accept those involved will  accept the likelihood of prosecution and will be judged on their own individual practices.

This must apply to both codes.

[the galah]

16 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Intent wouldn't get you off.  The odds are stacked when there is an accident.

NZTR need to be more proactive in this area.  Funding the establishment of "standards" isn't enough.  It's just virtue signaling.  

 Establishing standards and being more proactive go hand in hand don't they? We are talking about the prosecution side of things.  It must limit liability if worksafe has approved the standards and you have met them?

Edited August 18, 2019 by the galah

[billy connolly]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Arguably all the training and supervision in the world isn't going to prevent accidents from happening.  Working with racehorse's comes with high risk as is reflected in the ACC levies.

Accidents are are a fact of life, there's as much (probably more) chance of being injured in a car accident as there is on horseback.

Who is liable for injuries incurred at a Gymkhana / Rodeo where any Tom, Dick or Harriot can rock up for a bronc?

Riding a horse is not a lot different to riding a bike, does one need a certificate or licence to ride a bike???

[Chief Stipe]

2 minutes ago, the galah said:

 Establishing standards and being more proactive go hand in hand don't they?

No any industry body can assist in setting "standards" but the key is providing the training avenues (safe ones) to attain these standards.  For example an industry body might insist that anyone wanting to be a track rider HAS to attend a minimum of a one week approved course at the end of which they must be tested to insure that they have attained the standard.

 

[Freda]

The list of colleges/academies listed above have no specific ability to train a young person how to ride a racehorse.

Most Y.P's [ young people ]  who come to stables looking for work are utterly useless,  despite the 'level 3 ' or whatever certificate they may hold.

I have had several over the years who have come in for work experience,  not one could lead two horses safely,  nor could any pick out horses' feet.   Just a waste of time.   I have had a lass from Telford who was very capable [ couldn't ride a T.B though ]  but that was as a result of her experience helping her family with breeding stock,   not as a result of what she had learned at the college.

Years ago,  Max Skelton was the principal of our local apprentice school  - he also ran a riding school.  He had ponies and also a few retired racehorses; these animals were as safe as it is possible to get, as they spent all their working days plodding around an arena,  nose-to-tail,  and steadfastly ignoring the encouraging kicks and digs to get them to move along a bit.

Max would give Y.P's lessons, and once graduating to T.B's,  got the more suitable riders cantering and adopting a ' crouch' position.

He would also,  occasion,  bring these old racehorses into the track and do barrier work with the kids.   He would have been the closest I have ever seen to a proper 'racing orientated'  riding teacher.

Despite 'unit standards'  and all the other paper qualifications,  I have to repeat [ for Thommo's benefit ]  that as far as I know,  there is NO specific riding academy which gives a tick to a potential track rider.

A bloody can of worms.

If I was approached for a riding position by a non-racing person,  the very least I would require would be evidence of competence at Area Trials / Pony Club champs level..and there would be a lot of work done with said Y.P before they were let anywhere near a track.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Freda

[Chief Stipe]

1 minute ago, billy connolly said:

Riding a horse is not a lot different to riding a bike, does one need a certificate or licence to ride a bike???

Are you seriously comparing riding a thoroughbred in track work to riding a bike?

Isn't one of the first things they teach apprentice jockeys is how to bail safely from a horse when it bolts and they lose control?

[SLB2.0]

The last time I rode a race horse I got thrown into a fence.

I was uninjured - but let's say I was injured. Does my Dad, who told me to get on the horse, liable if I wanted to sue him?

However, I wasn't employed by him so Work & Safety wouldn't get involved.

Another hypothetical question - I rode pony club when I was around 8. What happens if I fall off and suffer a serious injury whilst at the club? I wasn't trained to ride those horses, I was in the process of being trained to ride those horses, much like Sophia.

There are a lot of hypothetical questions left unanswered and trainers/pony club instructors should be fearful.

[Thomass]

2 hours ago, Freda said:

The list of colleges/academies listed above have no specific ability to train a young person how to ride a racehorse.

Most Y.P's [ young people ]  who come to stables looking for work are utterly useless,  despite the 'level 3 ' or whatever certificate they may hold.

I have had several over the years who have come in for work experience,  not one could lead two horses safely,  nor could any pick out horses' feet.   Just a waste of time.   I have had a lass from Telford who was very capable [ couldn't ride a T.B though ]  but that was as a result of her experience helping her family with breeding stock,   not as a result of what she had learned at the college.

Years ago,  Max Skelton was the principal of our local apprentice school  - he also ran a riding school.  He had ponies and also a few retired racehorses; these animals were as safe as it is possible to get, as they spent all their working days plodding around an arena,  nose-to-tail,  and steadfastly ignoring the encouraging kicks and digs to get them to move along a bit.

Max would give Y.P's lessons, and once graduating to T.B's,  got the more suitable riders cantering and adopting a ' crouch' position.

He would also,  occasion,  bring these old racehorses into the track and do barrier work with the kids.   He would have been the closest I have ever seen to a proper 'racing orientated'  riding teacher.

Despite 'unit standards'  and all the other paper qualifications,  I have to repeat [ for Thommo's benefit ]  that as far as I know,  there is NO specific riding academy which gives a tick to a potential track rider.

A bloody can of worms.

If I was approached for a riding position by a non-racing person,  the very least I would require would be evidence of competence at Area Trials / Pony Club champs level..and there would be a lot of work done with said Y.P before they were let anywhere near a track.

 

 

Good post freda.

Please do the Industry a favour and tell this story to Marty Burns who is the NZTR go to on this.

martin.burns@nztr.co.nz

Id tell him Racing Victoria's system is making us look like a bunch of hopeless amatuers.

[Thomass]

3 hours ago, billy connolly said:

Accidents are are a fact of life, there's as much (probably more) chance of being injured in a car accident as there is on horseback.

Who is liable for injuries incurred at a Gymkhana / Rodeo where any Tom, Dick or Harriot can rock up for a bronc?

Riding a horse is not a lot different to riding a bike, does one need a certificate or licence to ride a bike???

Yes, one has to have a car licence to drive Dave.

This girl didn't have a 'licence' to ride either by the looks.

Worksafety..."There was no formal training to monitor, supervise and progress from her stable hand to riding a racehorse."

And if a trainer is simply asking a young person if they have the experience.that doesn't count either.it's about establishing a history of experience to ride fast work.either through a CV or ringing the person who has given a rider a reference.

That would stand up in any court to the scrutiny of a Worksafe charge.

And if you're comparing a 'bicycle' to a Horse then you don't have a grip on the situation.

 

[billy connolly]

1 hour ago, Thomass said:

Yes, one has to have a car licence to drive.

This girl didn't have a 'licence' to ride either by the looks.

Is that a fact? 

What about Hookers working the streets, do they need a licence to stand on street corners?

I'm thinking of selling my body, haven't had any experience (paid that is) .. do I require a licence???

[Chief Stipe]

7 minutes ago, billy connolly said:

Is that a fact? 

What about Hookers working the streets, do they need a licence to stand on street corners?

I'm thinking of selling my body, haven't had any experience (paid that is) .. do I require a licence???

If you own and manage a brothel then you need to register and obtain a license.  You then also need to provide a safe work environment.  Street workers are considered essentially self-employed contractors.

Your analogy is way off.

[Freda]

23 hours ago, barryb said:

Sure is. 

Public Liability covers  for Property Damage and Personal Injury to members of the Public.

Statutory Liability covers unintentional breeches of Acts of Parliament. 

Employers Liability is for Accidents, Injury to employees outside of ACC.

Normally the 3 are sold as a package to businesses by brokers. 

 

I'm displaying my ignorance - but what situation would be classed as ' outside of ACC'   ?

[curious]

Wouldn't sleep at night without all 3. Horses or no horses. Riders or not. I'd assume the TA would advise trainers on this annd provide discounted options. That's the norm in most other professions that I know of.

 

[Kopia]

16 hours ago, Thomass said:

Yes, one has to have a car licence to drive Dave.

This girl didn't have a 'licence' to ride either by the looks.

Worksafety.."There was no formal training to monitor, supervise and progress from her stable hand to riding a racehorse."

And if a trainer is simply asking a young person if they have the experience.that doesn't count either.it's about establishing a history of experience to ride fast work.either through a CV or ringing the person who has given a rider a reference.

That would stand up in any court to the scrutiny of a Worksafe charge.

And if you're comparing a 'bicycle' to a Horse then you don't have a grip on the situation.

 

On the contrary Tommo, the principle here is an over-riding one. I believe Stephen McKee did not contest the charge, which means that any legal argument about consequences were restricted to penalty. Where does responsibilty start and end ? Think about this : these ' LIME' scooters are available to hire without any personal oversight by the ' owners'. It seems that you, as the hirer, have to make certain representations about your age, driving experience ( licensed? ) and as long as you can pay for the hireage, your'e on your own.  So what happens if an under-age person 'illegally' hires one and gets wiped out by a bus while on one of these things? Does the owner/s of the LIME machine then stand back and say' not my problem, he/she said that they were old enough/experienced enough'....would this be classed as an 'accident' or would the next of kin of the injured/deceased have a case against the proprietors of LIME's ?  McKee's case sets a precedent which could have very far reaching consequences in all situations where injury/death occurs, it's a lot wider then the racing industry.

[Chief Stipe]

59 minutes ago, curious said:

Wouldn't sleep at night without all 3. Horses or no horses. Riders or not. I'd assume the TA would advise trainers on this annd provide discounted options. That's the norm in most other professions that I know of.

 

Shouldn't it be a compulsory condition of a license to train?  These types of insurance are compulsory in other trades.