Horse trainer fined $327k after accident which left teenage employee tetraplegic

[Thomass]

1 hour ago, Kopia said:

On the contrary Tommo, the principle here is an over-riding one. I believe Stephen McKee did not contest the charge, which means that any legal argument about consequences were restricted to penalty. Where does responsibilty start and end ? Think about this : these ' LIME' scooters are available to hire without any personal oversight by the ' owners'. It seems that you, as the hirer, have to make certain representations about your age, driving experience ( licensed? ) and as long as you can pay for the hireage, your'e on your own.  So what happens if an under-age person 'illegally' hires one and gets wiped out by a bus while on one of these things? Does the owner/s of the LIME machine then stand back and say' not my problem, he/she said that they were old enough/experienced enough'....would this be classed as an 'accident' or would the next of kin of the injured/deceased have a case against the proprietors of LIME's ?  McKee's case sets a precedent which could have very far reaching consequences in all situations where injury/death occurs, it's a lot wider then the racing industry.

Mmm..a Limey v 500kg of highly tuned race horse ready to race.

This is telling isn't it?

"A Work Safe investigation found McKee, had not established whether the teenager was competent to ride a race horse.

"There was no formal training to monitor, supervise and progress from her stable hand to riding a racehorse."

No formal training, just established she went to pony club?

Again, it's like sending an apprentice sparky to a job.without checking they're good to go.death awaits them.

 

 

[SLB2.0]

From my understanding, she was sent away to learn.

Also - how do you administer formal training to ride a racehorse without actually riding a racehorse?

[Thomass]

7 minutes ago, SLB2.0 said:

From my understanding, she was sent away to learn.

Also - how do you administer formal training to ride a racehorse without actually riding a racehorse?

If that's the case then 2 points..

...why did Stephen not inform them of that.

..or perhaps he didn't want to fight the case in deference to the injured rider??

Edited August 19, 2019 by Thomass

[Kopia]

1 hour ago, Thomass said:

Mmm.a Limey v 500kg of highly tuned race horse ready to race.

This is telling isn't it?

"A Work Safe investigation found McKee, had not established whether the teenager was competent to ride a race horse.

"There was no formal training to monitor, supervise and progress from her stable hand to riding a racehorse."

No formal training, just established she went to pony club?

Again, it's like sending an apprentice sparky to a job.without checking they're good to go.death awaits them.

 

 

This might just be a bit over your head Tommo. Its about the principle not the specific. Get someone to help.you lefties aren't hot on responsibility.

[Reefton]

2 hours ago, Thomass said:

Mmm.a Limey v 500kg of highly tuned race horse ready to race.

This is telling isn't it?

"A Work Safe investigation found McKee, had not established whether the teenager was competent to ride a race horse.

"There was no formal training to monitor, supervise and progress from her stable hand to riding a racehorse."

No formal training, just established she went to pony club?

Again, it's like sending an apprentice sparky to a job.without checking they're good to go.death awaits them.

 

 

My understanding is something like SLB said Thomass.  You don't know the circumstances so I would strongly suggest you shut up.  What Stephen McKee might or might not have done at the time or what decision he made in respect of the defence of the charge is his business.  He pays the bills and he took the rap(and a bloody harsh one at that) and speculation or character assassination by you does not help.

From what I have heard the girl insisted she could ride and when she got on the horse it turned out she was not as good as she made out.  And again as SLB said how do you know they can ride until you put them on one and all the mechanical horse training in the world might not help when one takes control of its newly 'trained' rider.

S McKee is, I am 110% sure, not in the habit of (knowingly) putting people on horses they cannot handle.  This might have gone wrong with disastrous consequences for everyone concerned but he clearly did not do it on purpose or recklessly.

Worksafe are typical government department pricks who are intent on crucifying the good name of one of NZ racing's icons. They showed how capable they are with their vigilant supervision of Pike River. 

 

[Thomass]

43 minutes ago, Reefton said:

My understanding is something like SLB said Thomass.  You don't know the circumstances so I would strongly suggest you shut up.  What Stephen McKee might or might not have done at the time or what decision he made in respect of the defence of the charge is his business.  He pays the bills and he took the rap(and a bloody harsh one at that) and speculation or character assassination by you does not help.

From what I have heard the girl insisted she could ride and when she got on the horse it turned out she was not as good as she made out.  And again as SLB said how do you know they can ride until you put them on one and all the mechanical horse training in the world might not help when one takes control of its newly 'trained' rider.

S McKee is, I am 110% sure, not in the habit of (knowingly) putting people on horses they cannot handle.  This might have gone wrong with disastrous consequences for everyone concerned but he clearly did not do it on purpose or recklessly.

Worksafe are typical government department pricks who are intent on crucifying the good name of one of NZ racing's icons. They showed how capable they are with their vigilant supervision of Pike River. 

 

Maybe you should stay out of this highly charged case..but if you insist you should be declaring McKee is your trainer.

Im dealing in the facts as presented and accepted by MCKee.

Quite clearly I've never assassinated his character.

Heres the facts

"Experts consulted by WorkSafe found Malthus was not competent to have been put in charge of a racehorse at the Alfriston training track in July 2016, having been given no formal training, being not riding fit and having only ridden quiet horses and never at a gallop.

..her formal riding before the incident involved eight, half-hour private lessons paid for by her parents at a Palmerston North facility involving quiet, older horses in a different environment. 

WorkSafe said the trainer thought the horse he had given Malthus that morning was "ideal" although he had not seen her ride, assuming her private lessons had been sufficient."

So no formal training on a galloping race horse, not riding fit..

..and he'd NEVER seen her ride

Obviously its a tragic lesson learnt..

Trainers will now be double checking new employees CV's and ringing previous Employers.as is done in any other Industry/Company to check Bona Fides.

..which in turn will strongly indemnify any Trainer from future H & S inquiries I would have thought.

 

[Chief Stipe]

Who were the "Experts"?  If they are "Industry" participants perhaps they could tell us what constitutes adequate "formal training"?

[Reefton]

36 minutes ago, Thomass said:

Maybe you should stay out of this highly charged case.but if you insist you should be declaring McKee is your trainer.

Im dealing in the facts as presented.and accepted by MCKee.

Quite clearly I've never assassinated his character.

Heres the facts

"Experts consulted by WorkSafe found Malthus was not competent to have been put in charge of a racehorse at the Alfriston training track in July 2016, having been given no formal training, being not riding fit and having only ridden quiet horses and never at a gallop.

.her formal riding before the incident involved eight, half-hour private lessons paid for by her parents at a Palmerston North facility involving quiet, older horses in a different environment. 

WorkSafe said the trainer thought the horse he had given Malthus that morning was "ideal" although he had not seen her ride, assuming her private lessons had been sufficient."

So no formal training on a galloping race horse, not riding fit.

.and he'd NEVER seen her ride

Obviously its a tragic lesson learnt.

Trainers will now be double checking new employees CV's and ringing previous Employers.as is done in any other Industry/Company to check Bona Fides.

.which in turn will strongly indemnify any Trainer from future H & S inquiries I would have thought.

 

McKee is not 'my' trainer nor is he a particular friend of mine(he does train a horse in which my wife holds a racing share and I have met him a couple of times but I certainly do not know him well).  Pitty is 'my' trainer if indeed I have one at all.

Because of the guilty plea(or even if he defended it and was found guilty) the prosecuting agency(in this case Work Safe) have their opportunity to put their case before sentencing.  That does not mean that the defendant agrees with their summation of  the facts but it is past the point where he can refute them (but like a lot of people who have obtained some authority via their occupation they love to show everyone how knowledgeable they are.  Invariably I find these people - usually public servants - are of extremely limited capability themselves but are total experts in how everyone else should run their affairs) .

So McKee is forced to stand there and listen to drivel from guys who would have no idea which end of the horse you shove the tucker into but by that time he has no right of reply and even if he did the judge probably would have even less knowledge of how a stable operates.

And then on social media idiots like you dutifully report what the OSH man says as if it is gospel.  You might not be using your own words to character assassinate him but by relaying the ill informed piffle of these guys you are doing just that. 

Clearly Stephen McKee would have put her on a horse he thought was 'ideal' - he no doubt has a lot of expensive horses in his yard of  varying temperaments and stages of their careers.  All of them have owners and no owner wants their horse wrecked by a rider out of their depth.

Stephen McKee has achieved far more in NZ racing that you(or I for that matter) ever will and deserves sympathy for this situation not to have his good name dragged though the mud by tossers like you revelling in his misfortune.

Like I say let these OSH plonkers explain how they (1) totally failed in their duty to ensure the Pike River workplace was safe and then (2) totally failed to do their homework in preparing the Whittall prosecution documentation which ultimately led to the defence lawyers destroying their case before it even got near court.  There are 29 men and families affected by that debacle and they deserve an explanation.

 

[Chief Stipe]

Can we center this discussion on the systems, processes and industry support rather than focus on the individuals involved in this case?

The Trainer in this case was no doubt doing what many other trainers do daily in the NZ industry.  Unfortunately for all those concerned an ACCIDENT occurred that has far reaching consequences for those involved.

Where is the NZTR response to this issue?  Some posters have highlighted a paucity of training options within the industry.  What is being done to fix that?  Or is the unnecessary closing of race courses the priority?

As for the legislation that supports WorkSafe I don't have a high opinion of it when one outcome is for every corporate office having to test on a regular basis each "jug cord" (power cord) that connects to every device to ensure workers are "safe."  I couldn't believe it when the ancient router (which had no jug cord attached, no lights on and no network cables)  I used to elevate my computer screen to a suitable height was tested and certified.  Yes the hot water jug in the kitchen was also tested.  BUT no testing was done on the fuse panel!!!

[billy connolly]

The lesson here must be to delegate responsibility to someone else, ie: when a schoolgirl knocks on your door looking for a ride on a valuable racehorse, send your foreman or one of your staff out to leg her up, then when all hell breaks loose and OSH come knocking on your (Mckee's) door - you knew nothing !

Did this event occur at a racetrack or Mckee's own track?

Edited August 20, 2019 by billy connolly

[Thomass]

1 hour ago, Reefton said:

McKee is not 'my' trainer nor is he a particular friend of mine(he does train a horse in which my wife holds a racing share and I have met him a couple of times but I certainly do not know him well).  Pitty is 'my' trainer if indeed I have one at all.

Because of the guilty plea(or even if he defended it and was found guilty) the prosecuting agency(in this case Work Safe) have their opportunity to put their case before sentencing.  That does not mean that the defendant agrees with their summation of  the facts but it is past the point where he can refute them (but like a lot of people who have obtained some authority via their occupation they love to show everyone how knowledgeable they are.  Invariably I find these people - usually public servants - are of extremely limited capability themselves but are total experts in how everyone else should run their affairs) .

So McKee is forced to stand there and listen to drivel from guys who would have no idea which end of the horse you shove the tucker into but by that time he has no right of reply and even if he did the judge probably would have even less knowledge of how a stable operates.

And then on social media idiots like you dutifully report what the OSH man says as if it is gospel.  You might not be using your own words to character assassinate him but by relaying the ill informed piffle of these guys you are doing just that. 

Clearly Stephen McKee would have put her on a horse he thought was 'ideal' - he no doubt has a lot of expensive horses in his yard of  varying temperaments and stages of their careers.  All of them have owners and no owner wants their horse wrecked by a rider out of their depth.

Stephen McKee has achieved far more in NZ racing that you(or I for that matter) ever will and deserves sympathy for this situation not to have his good name dragged though the mud by tossers like you revelling in his misfortune.

Like I say let these OSH plonkers explain how they (1) totally failed in their duty to ensure the Pike River workplace was safe and then (2) totally failed to do their homework in preparing the Whittall prosecution documentation which ultimately led to the defence lawyers destroying their case before it even got near court.  There are 29 men and families affected by that debacle and they deserve an explanation.

 

Fair dinkum. get a grip man. 

FYI I'm not " a tosser revelling in his misfortune"

I merely posted the stated facts of the case.  In which MCKee admitted he hadn't  ever seen her ride . . . .

SLB may know more but until then it's pretty obvious that's a pretty good reason why they charged him and he accepted the stated contention. 

That it was an unsafe practice 

[Chief Stipe]

15 minutes ago, billy connolly said:

The lesson here must be to delegate responsibility to someone else, ie: when a schoolgirl knocks on your door looking for a ride on a valuable racehorse, send your foreman or one of your staff out to leg her up, then when all hell breaks loose and OSH come knocking on your (Mckee's) door - you knew nothing !

Did this event occur at a racetrack or Mckee's own track?

You obviously don't understand the legislation and where the buck stops.  Delegating the responsibility would not absolve the Employer from culpability.

[Thomass]

19 minutes ago, Thomass said:

Fair dinku. . .get a grip man.

FYI I'm not " a tosser revelling in his misfortune"

I merely posted the stated facts of the case.

. In which MCKee admitted he hadn't  ever seen her ride . 

SLB may know more but until then it's pretty obvious that's a pretty good reason why they charged him and he accepted the stated contention. 

That it was an unsafe practice . 

 . 

[Thomass]

38 minutes ago, billy connolly said:

The lesson here must be to delegate responsibility to someone else, ie: when a schoolgirl knocks on your door looking for a ride on a valuable racehorse, send your foreman or one of your staff out to leg her up, then when all hell breaks loose and OSH come knocking on your (Mckee's) door - you knew nothing !

Did this event occur at a racetrack or Mckee's own track?

Your analogies are about as off the planet as your moniker . 

[Thomass]

  .  .  .  .  .

[Kopia]

6 minutes ago, Thomass said:

  .  .  .  .  .

'Stop Making Sense'.Talking Heads..Tommo the above is the first time you've posted for a long time where you actually haven't spoken da crap.well done!

[Reefton]

5 hours ago, Thomass said:

Fair dinkum. get a grip man. 

FYI I'm not " a tosser revelling in his misfortune"

I merely posted the stated facts of the case.  In which MCKee admitted he hadn't  ever seen her ride . .

SLB may know more but until then it's pretty obvious that's a pretty good reason why they charged him and he accepted the stated contention. 

That it was an unsafe practice 

A tosser revelling in his misfortune is exactly what you are.

He elected to plead guilty presumably (and I have no idea so am presuming) on the basis that it was the cheapest option (knowing what lawyers cost with no guarantee of success). He then runs into some plonker determined to enjoy his time in the limelight and the papers clearly report it verbatim.  That does NOT mean McKee accepts what the prick says - a guilty plea means he accepts some culpability not that he agrees 100% with what some little Hitler has to say. This prick is suggesting he deliberately put this kid in extreme danger and only a simpleton IIke you would believe that.

McKee like his Dad before him is a legend in NZ Racing and halfwits like you should be showing him some respect. He will be feeling like shit over the girl's position and this draconian fine and does not need idiots regurgitating the opinion of ill informed imbeciles (whether they think they are right or not or whether the idiot media report it or not). The way you carry on you would think he was a mass murderer.

[Dark Beau]

On 18/08/2019 at 12:42 PM, Chief Stipe said:

Wasn't quite the same rules then.  Now an investigation would take place regardless.  That's part of the reason why we saw a spate of race meeting cancellations.  It would be interesting to see what sort of investigation would take place if a jockey was seriously injured or killed during a race.  Who would be liable?

Pray tell me. in today’s environment what would they have done in Mr Brown’s case?

Based on what has been put forward here, fine someone I guess, just who I don’t know!

[Basil]

3 hours ago, Reefton said:

A tosser revelling in his misfortune is exactly what you are.

He elected to plead guilty presumably (and I have no idea so am presuming) on the basis that it was the cheapest option (knowing what lawyers cost with no guarantee of success). He then runs into some plonker determined to enjoy his time in the limelight and the papers clearly report it verbatim.  That does NOT mean McKee accepts what the prick says - a guilty plea means he accepts some culpability not that he agrees 100% with what some little Hitler has to say. This prick is suggesting he deliberately put this kid in extreme danger and only a simpleton IIke you would believe that.

McKee like his Dad before him is a legend in NZ Racing and halfwits like you should be showing him some respect. He will be feeling like shit over the girl's position and this draconian fine and does not need idiots regurgitating the opinion of ill informed imbeciles (whether they think they are right or not or whether the idiot media report it or not). The way you carry on you would think he was a mass murderer.

"I have no idea" is the one accurate bit in this post.  Regardless of any so-called "legend" status, McKee was, by his own admission, extremely careless, and so was extremely lucky only to get hit with the fine he did.  Anybody claiming otherwise is motivated by something other than facts.

Respect is earned, not a divine right.

[the galah]

 

11 hours ago, Reefton said:

McKee is not 'my' trainer nor is he a particular friend of mine(he does train a horse in which my wife holds a racing share and I have met him a couple of times but I certainly do not know him well).  Pitty is 'my' trainer if indeed I have one at all.

Because of the guilty plea(or even if he defended it and was found guilty) the prosecuting agency(in this case Work Safe) have their opportunity to put their case before sentencing.  That does not mean that the defendant agrees with their summation of  the facts but it is past the point where he can refute them (but like a lot of people who have obtained some authority via their occupation they love to show everyone how knowledgeable they are.  Invariably I find these people - usually public servants - are of extremely limited capability themselves but are total experts in how everyone else should run their affairs) .

So McKee is forced to stand there and listen to drivel from guys who would have no idea which end of the horse you shove the tucker into but by that time he has no right of reply and even if he did the judge probably would have even less knowledge of how a stable operates.

And then on social media idiots like you dutifully report what the OSH man says as if it is gospel.  You might not be using your own words to character assassinate him but by relaying the ill informed piffle of these guys you are doing just that. 

Clearly Stephen McKee would have put her on a horse he thought was 'ideal' - he no doubt has a lot of expensive horses in his yard of  varying temperaments and stages of their careers.  All of them have owners and no owner wants their horse wrecked by a rider out of their depth.

Stephen McKee has achieved far more in NZ racing that you(or I for that matter) ever will and deserves sympathy for this situation not to have his good name dragged though the mud by tossers like you revelling in his misfortune.

Like I say let these OSH plonkers explain how they (1) totally failed in their duty to ensure the Pike River workplace was safe and then (2) totally failed to do their homework in preparing the Whittall prosecution documentation which ultimately led to the defence lawyers destroying their case before it even got near court.  There are 29 men and families affected by that debacle and they deserve an explanation.

 

Gee " the tossers reveling in his misfortune" is way over the top.

Mckees the personality, but the thread has not been discussing his personality,achievements or whether he's a top bloke.

One thing you did say is "that does not mean the defendant agrees with worksafes summation of the facts but it is past the point where he can refute it."   That's not how things work though is it.  

The proposed summary of the facts would have been presented to mckees lawyer who would have gone through it with mckee, and had he disputed parts of it,he would have had an opportunity to present evidence to the contrary. 

I think you have to take the view that everyone can learn from this. The whole point of the system/prosecution is to promote safer workplace practices through education. And I thought thats what the thread has been discussing.

[theshu]

I think you have to take the view that everyone can learn from this. The whole point of the system/prosecution is to promote safer workplace practices through education. And I thought thats what the thread has been discussing.

Totally correct.I feel so sorry for the young lady as her life has been totally ruined by a very misfortunite accident,.I hope she can pick up the pieces and enjoy her life as good as she can.Lesson for all to be learned from this terrible incident. When i was younger and involved with the horses in Riccarton we used to get a lot of the pony club scene wanting to be involved with the race horses.My boss would sent me alongside them on the  quiet ones around the shoot  at a trot only  to see if they could handle a racehorse and ask my opinion if they would be capable to ride sufficient trackwork.More often then not i would have them restricted to trotting only around the shoot for a few months.Whist most were very capable horse riders,the racehorse is a totally different scenario as can be very highly strung.

[The Centaur]

Reefton, for a start your opinion is compromised with your association.

Other opinions here approach it from an entirely fair and impartial perspective so perhaps they deserve some respect.

Given the outcome the penalties and reparations and ability to pay the $400,000 is extremely lenient.

I ran a riding school for a while so have knowledge about the stages riders go through to get proficient. One thing I found is that horses react differently to different riders. Sometimes a heavyweight fully experienced for many years can hop on very quiet horse and it goes mad whereas a lightweight non rider with no experience gets on and the horse is quiet as a lamb. When I worked in a stable (Brian Deacon - great record with apprentices) the trainer only allowed me to trot on the track even though I had been riding ponies for years. No doubt if I had stayed longer the process would have been gradual with supervision.

No one is wallowing in others misfortunes. What riles people is just the attitude taken by you Reefton. "Oh Steve is such a great fella he can't do wrong" 

From the evidence revealed Stephen McKee is guilty of shocking negligence and if a person of his standing is not properly penalized  it paints a dark picture on others of lesser standing.

[billy connolly]

3 hours ago, The Centaur said:

From the evidence revealed Stephen McKee is guilty of shocking negligence and if a person of his standing is not properly penalized  it paints a dark picture on others of lesser standing.

Rubbish.

People fall off horses every day, 90% of them get straight back on, this girl was one of the unfortunate 10% that didn't.

If she had not suffered a debilitating injury nothing would have been heard or said.

[SLB2.0]

It's similar to players being banned in professional sport.

You can pick a guy up and dump him on his head. If he gets up you'll get a couple of weeks. If he suffers a serious injury, you're gone for 6-8.