aquaman Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 The more bet types when confronted with a small betting base is tantamount to shooting the pie with a shotgun splintering the pools ever lower, thereby creating a lesser incentitive to betting. How hard is that to understand. Morons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 2 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: whose s?ide are you on! Racing and every stakeholder that is getting rogered by incompetent management. For the life of me I can't understand why the GM of Wagering hasn't been fired. Does he have pictures of certain politicians or industry leaders riding goats? When you start believing your own propaganda you are well and truly stuffed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 3 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Yep so with a declining quality race product they have further added to its decline by showing races Busan to some obscure place in North America. I was watching the New Zealand races the other day and instead of promoting the racing they were switching back to harness racing in the snow in Canada! Go figure! The last thing I wanted to see was a race being held in the middle of winter with snow drifts! that's the Xmas spirit...sounds very picturesque. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 The issue is that most people here involved in strategies around betting revenue, can't see past what the potential impact is to one race or one meeting, here or there. They simply cannot analyse a proposed strategy from how that affects the entire market. So they look at commingling and say to themselves. Bigger pool on a race at Ellerslie, more people will like that, more will be bet on that. More revenue. Multiply that up for heaps of races, bang more revenue. But it doesn't work that way, since people become selective - there isn't an endless supply of punters funds out there. So the punters funds shift to where they get the best quality/price etc, they don't just add more and add more and add more. Yet NZRB and NZTR think they do. Here is what they wrote in the 2007 annual report. "Commingled pools and the expansion of the New Zealand and Australian race programmes will provide increased wagering opportunities for customers on both sides of the Tasman. This will in turn enhance our ability to deliver incremental funding to all three racing codes" That was never going to happen. Delusional 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 I must admit I was a supporter of commingling as bigger pools looked more attractive and tended to remove the extreme variation in prices. I've since learnt that successful punters play those variations better than I do. Ironically we now have non-commingled races coming at us from left right and centre or rather places in the world I've never heard of. Right now with less than two minutes to go we have race 5 from somewhere called Turf Paradise with $156 in the Win pool. Yahoo I must get on! Mind you they are offering Fixed Odds.....now how does that work? In a small volume market do they limit the size of the bet? I'm wondering what the profit margin is on those FOB books. I still don't think commingling is a bad idea however I'm increasingly leaning towards the opposite. But I don't think it has been helped by FOB, higher takeout rates and other ludicrous steps taken by NZ TAB management. The pari mutuel tote was the Golden Goose and everything they have done has killed it - well not quite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: I still don't think commingling is a bad idea however I'm increasingly leaning towards the opposite. But I don't think it has been helped by FOB, higher takeout rates and other ludicrous steps taken by NZ TAB management. The pari mutuel tote was the Golden Goose and everything they have done has killed it - well not quite. The idea of commingling is OK. The primary issue with the TABCORP agreement is the requirement to flood NZ racing with off-shore racing. I would have preferred no commingling and NZ TAB to set take-out rates below their competitors. But if they had simply agreed to commingling - but not to all the extra races (and levelled off the take-out rates to the same), the impact would not have been as severe. We've lost the focus on our own racing. What jurisdiction other than us, promotes 10 times as much racing elsewhere - and heavily promotes it. Losing the focus and interest on our own racing, makes the industry as a whole in NZ, of less value to the nation. For every $1 of NZ racing tote turnover that shifts to an off-shore race, the net revenue is impacted on average by between 4 and 8 cents. That's made up of the variance in the take-out rate plus the race field fees we pay on that event. if you don't add revenue generating betting to make up for that, you lose approx. $8m in net revenue when $100m goes from NZ tote to an Oz race. That's $8m revenue (not turnover), you have to have attracted from somewhere just to break even with the strategy. Commingling has shifted a lot more than $100m from NZ tote betting elsewhere. Edited January 6, 2020 by mardigras 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 41 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: Its a useful card in an area that is very sensitive to politicians. Definitely not a 'fistful of aces'!? No. More like the two of clubs. Of course, if they took those people (however many there actually are, and redeployed them to productive industries like horticulture and construction, that woul be a far greater benefit to the economy and they could use say $100m a year of the money they currently give to racing to fund any retraining and redeployment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 3 minutes ago, curious said: No. More like the two of clubs. Of course, if they took those people (however many there actually are, and redeployed them to productive industries like horticulture and construction, that woul be a far greater benefit to the economy and they could use say $100m a year of the money they currently give to racing to fund any retraining and redeployment. So taking away Govt funds from racing is a good idea iyo? I think in perspective its not that much.The 10's of millions chewed up in administration,salaries and PR since tax relief is quite hard to justify. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 8 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: So taking away Govt funds from racing is a good idea iyo? I think in perspective its not that much.The 10's of millions chewed up in administration,salaries and PR since tax relief is quite hard to justify. Yes. As a taxpayer I'd rather see that money go to the likes of health, education or as I suggested above, employment in productive industries that need it. Alternatively, to reducing taxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 8 minutes ago, curious said: Yes. As a taxpayer I'd rather see that money go to the likes of health, education or as I suggested above, employment in productive industries that need it. Alternatively, to reducing taxes. Agreed. I'll be really pissed off if the industry snag's a hunk of the Provincial Growth Fund. The industry used to stand on its own two feet (well with a walking stick) now it is lucky to be sitting on its arse. It is funny how that 30,000 to 40,000 people employed in the racing industry figure hasn't changed since I first heard it in 1981. Either the industry HASN'T shrunk in size or it has become LESS efficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VC! Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 10 hours ago, mardigras said: They must be thinking it's brilliant -except they aren't betting on it. Tote turnover across all races only down $65m last year with NZ TAB. in 2007, tote was 1.225b (across 24,780 races), 490m on NZ gallops in 2019, tote was 0.885b (across 99,300 races), 220m on NZ gallops The Landscape has changed since 2007 with Sports Betting making massive inroads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 5 minutes ago, VC! said: The Landscape has changed since 2007 with Sports Betting making massive inroads True. However the significant decreases in tote betting on NZ races started when commingling was introduced. At the time, sports betting was tiny. The decreases have merely continued. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 The appeal of betting on aussie races is obvious. Look at the debacles in NZ in the last couple of weeks. Only dyed in the wool NZ racing fans will excuse the never ending mediocrity that is inflicted on them. They are probably Warriors supporters too.Hoping,wishing and always being..disappointed.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VC! Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 59 minutes ago, mardigras said: True. However the significant decreases in tote betting on NZ races started when commingling was introduced. At the time, sports betting was tiny. The decreases have merely continued. By 2007 Punters were alerted to Betfair and more Corporates had come on board Once this happened the NZ Tab were always going to take a hit, as the punter was introduced to numerous forms of gambling looking for more attractive odds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 18 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Racing and every stakeholder that is getting rogered by incompetent management. For the life of me I can't understand why the GM of Wagering hasn't been fired. There would have to be a perception of inadequate performance for that to happen. It's clear that there is no comprension of that fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, VC! said: By 2007 Punters were alerted to Betfair and more Corporates had come on board Once this happened the NZ Tab were always going to take a hit, as the punter was introduced to numerous forms of gambling looking for more attractive odds I disagree in the main. The TAB may have been going to take a hit from competition. But commingling was designed to increase tote betting. Suddenly upon introduction it reduced it. And coincidentally those others things supposedly caused it?? Betfair was operating well before 2007. And tote betting was increasing at that stage. Why did tote betting reduction coincide with the introduction of commingling and not the introduction of betfair/sports betting/additional corporates? Did the NZ punter wait until commingling arrived to decide to use those alternative options? It's totally logical that tote betting on NZ racing would reduce with commingling. As Aquaman stated, why would I bet on NZ tote when I had the choice to bet on better racing at a lower cost to the punter? And without needing an off-shore account in a different currency. Which most NZ punters simply wouldn't bother with, especially back in 2007. Edited January 7, 2020 by mardigras 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmarket Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Hey Mardi, or anyone else that knows anything about aus bookies. I see a few months back that sportsbet & beteasy now have same owners, which i think betfair aus are involved with beteasy too, i may be wrong, but if that is true, that is a strong relationship. One thing i will say, last couple of months i have noticed the lack of promos offered by aus bookies, in fact there are now more promos from nz tab! Are the bookies hurting in aus? Any info would be welcome, also those that have aus accounts have they noticed change in promos? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 2 hours ago, mardigras said: I disagree in the main. The TAB may have been going to take a hit from competition. But commingling was designed to increase tote betting. Suddenly upon introduction it reduced it. And coincidentally those others things supposedly caused it?? Betfair was operating well before 2007. And tote betting was increasing at that stage. Why did tote betting reduction coincide with the introduction of commingling and not the introduction of betfair/sports betting/additional corporates? Did the NZ punter wait until commingling arrived to decide to use those alternative options? It's totally logical that tote betting on NZ racing would reduce with commingling. As Aquaman stated, why would I bet on NZ tote when I had the choice to bet on better racing at a lower cost to the punter? And without needing an off-shore account in a different currency. Which most NZ punters simply wouldn't bother with, especially back in 2007. All these AMAZEBALLS 'ideas'... ..whereupon our NZRB offered to meet when they got hoodwinked by your spiel... ...but you couldn't make their meeting as you had a colonic scheduled... ...why not post colonic then? #fullofbull Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 27 minutes ago, Newmarket said: Hey Mardi, or anyone else that knows anything about aus bookies. I see a few months back that sportsbet & beteasy now have same owners, which i think betfair aus are involved with beteasy too, i may be wrong, but if that is true, that is a strong relationship. One thing i will say, last couple of months i have noticed the lack of promos offered by aus bookies, in fact there are now more promos from nz tab! Are the bookies hurting in aus? Any info would be welcome, also those that have aus accounts have they noticed change in promos? Cheers Banned under the newish Code of Conduct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 42 minutes ago, Thomass said: All these AMAZEBALLS 'ideas'... ..whereupon our NZRB offered to meet when they got hoodwinked by your spiel... ...but you couldn't make their meeting as you had a colonic scheduled... Incredible. I have the ideas and you want me to give up my time to meet them. Yet, they were not prepared to give up their time to meet me. I had nothing to lose by not meeting them. Still don't. Lucky for you, you've now got what you seem to want. NZ gallops with zero interest. Lucky you. You should be well stoked because you were hoodwinked by their spiel on what commingling would do for the industry. Tell me how that's gone. Hahahahaha 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 59 minutes ago, Thomass said: All these AMAZEBALLS 'ideas'... ..whereupon our NZRB offered to meet when they got hoodwinked by your spiel... ...but you couldn't make their meeting as you had a colonic scheduled... ...why not post colonic then? #fullofbull Can you stop playing the man and contribute some substance to this very good and informative debate? In future any posts like this one will be moderated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 4 minutes ago, Thomass said: Yep they set up a meeting...you were having a colonic and couldnt stop having them to rearrange another meeting.. I suggested another time that suited me. They said no. Get your facts right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VC! Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Newmarket said: One thing i will say, last couple of months i have noticed the lack of promos offered by aus bookies, in fact there are now more promos from nz tab! Are the bookies hurting in aus? Any info would be welcome, also those that have aus accounts have they noticed change in promos? Cheers The Corporate bookmakers are struggling with the POC Tax turnover etc So less promos less advertising is just one way of reducing costs The bar has been lowered though if you’re a marginal punter or a punter who deposits $100 and just continues to turn it over, over a period of time, your account will become restricted or closed However if you’re a dead set loser you will still receive promo e-mails as the Corporate Bookmakers they rely on you lot more than ever now 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murray Fish Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 9 hours ago, mardigras said: Incredible. I have the ideas and you want me to give up my time to meet them. Yet, they were not prepared to give up their time to meet me. I had nothing to lose by not meeting them. Still don't. Lucky for you, you've now got what you seem to want. NZ gallops with zero interest. Lucky you. for what it's worth! It was gutless behaviour by those involved! a typical 'anti intellectual' stance, from a Industry well known for it! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 11 hours ago, Murray Fish said: for what it's worth! It was gutless behaviour by those involved! a typical 'anti intellectual' stance, from a Industry well known for it! They aren't alone. Typical behaviour from groups that think they know best. Was involved with curious who presented some insights to NZTR into their handicapping approach - pretty much fell on deaf ears. I mean, how could anyone possibly think these people could get it wrong, or that no one else is worth listening to. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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