Common Sense? NZTR Announce Initial Stakes Money

[Huey]

4 minutes ago, mardigras said:

Nope, I'm not a breeder or a trainer. But if you are a trainer and you can't train a horse for 2000m first up, just tell us. I hope you tell your prospective clients as well.

I  tend to comment on things I know about. And leave the rest to whoever.

Well why are you commenting on this? You haven't got a clue.

Please outline the 8 week training program to get them to a 2000m+ race and be competitive, especially first starters or horses that have been in the paddock 2-3 months . Give me a week by week breakdown below. Can you also give out Barrier Certs over the internet?

 

[Huey]

15 hours ago, mardigras said:

I see Fierement just won the Tenno Sho (G1) over 3200m in Japan. Hadn't started since December last year. I wonder how long it took to prepare him for this race. 

Won it last year fresh up also, from a prior run more than 3 months earlier.

That's 3200m - G1.

You argue with yourself, hasn't started since December how many months is that in work , was it a first starter? Could it have benefited from your 8 week training program instead of wasting all those months preparing ?

[Huey]

18 hours ago, curious said:

Why not? And told by who?

Is your horse on the Mardigras 8 week training program?

[curious]

24 minutes ago, Huey said:

Is that one horse you got in work going to the races without any trial or jumpouts, just galloping in company let me know its name so I can follow it.

Yep. Probably won't even gallop in company. Maybe with my lab on the beach.

Edited May 3, 2020 by curious

[Noodlum]

I'd say Huey was an old school NZ trainer.  Where the horse gets maybe two 4 month preps a year and the rest of the time is left in a paddock.  Then they use shorter races they are not competitive in to get their horses fit enough to compete at the distance the horse is suited to.  For example - first race is over 1200m, then 1400m, then 1600m.  

I'm not sure how the Japanese train their horses but I know the Brits never put their horses in a paddock for a rest.  They are in work the entire time even if it is just walking a couple of miles each day.  Then no trouble in starting out over the horses competitive distance first up. 

The horses here get fat and unfit eating grass and bin fed then take at least 6 weeks of slow tedious (for the horse) work to get fit enough to gallop again!

[curious]

45 minutes ago, Huey said:

Was that on a Heavy93 he won the Arc?

You and Mardigras train yours the way you want and leave it to others how they preapare their own.

He actually beat a nice horse in the Arc the year before called Balmerino which from memory had won his previous start fresh up for John Dunlop in the Valdoe Stakes at Goodwood over 2000m.

[curious]

1 hour ago, Huey said:

Was that on a Heavy93 he won the Arc?

You and Mardigras train yours the way you want and leave it to others how they preapare their own.

It was one of the slowest Arc's in history though maybe  not quite a Heavy 93.

 

[mardigras]

14 minutes ago, Huey said:

Well why are you commenting on this? You haven't got a clue.

Please outline the 8 week training program to get them to a 2000m+ race and be competitive, especially first starters or horses that have been in the paddock 2-3 months . Give me a week by week breakdown below. Can you also give out Barrier Certs over the internet?

 

All I've been doing is stating facts and asking questions. Questions, you haven't seemed to want to answer.

And your original post wasn't only about the timeframe, it was about only having one jumpout, as if that was the reason there would be zero horses ready. Why do these horses need races or jumpouts. Why not just train them to be race ready without jumpouts or races?

If you can't get yours ready in time, wait until they are ready. 

[All The Aces]

1 hour ago, curious said:

Yep. Probably won't even gallop in company. Maybe with my lab on the beach.

 

Gee that first up punt and aim to beat Pitty to train a winner first could all go up in smoke if it turns out to be field shy.  

[Chief Stipe]

6 minutes ago, All The Aces said:

 

Gee that first up punt and aim to beat Pitty to train a winner first could all go up in smoke if it turns out to be field shy.  

It'll have blinkers on.

[curious]

6 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

It'll have blinkers on.

Yep. And if it's far enough in front won't matter if it's fieldshy.

[barryb]

Only problem Curious is Pity races a day before you.

[Freda]

34 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

It'll have blinkers on.

The lab ?

[nomates]

1 hour ago, Noodlum said:

I'm not sure how the Japanese train their horses but I know the Brits never put their horses in a paddock for a rest.  They are in work the entire time even if it is just walking a couple of miles each day.  Then no trouble in starting out over the horses competitive distance first up. 

 

The trainers i spoke to in the UK when i went to some meetings last year all said they spell horses . Whilst successful can't say any of them were household names but certainly had worked for some of the big names in UK racing . MY understanding is that whilst they may not spell for long , especially summer horses , they were brought into light work mainly because of winter conditions didn't allow that and just pottered around with . A lot of the trainers have indoor arena's big enough for trotting and cantering during this period . The training methods are very different to Australasia , lots of long slow work on downs and whilst they can fit a horse for a first up win at 2400mtr i think you'll find those horses have been in work for a lot longer than 2 months .

As for the Japanese , My understanding is those big gun horses that come to Aussie have basically been in work for years , no spells , just periods of very light work , i suspect very similar to Singapore and HK .

Personally i don't know of any respected trainer that would bring a horse in from a spell and have it in a 2000 mtrs race 8 weeks later . i would suspect if this happened it would be bottom a horse . Modern horses are no where tough as they used to be , they are much finer than in the past . That said , in horse racing there is always the exception .

[curious]

14 minutes ago, barryb said:

Only problem Curious is Pity races a day before you.

Well I told him he needs to give me at least 3 figure odds because of that, the 60/1 ratio of horses on the books and the fact that I don't have a trainer's licence. No response yet.

[curious]

9 minutes ago, Freda said:

The lab ?

t'll have blinkers on and be on the lead so it doesn't get too far ahead.

[curious]

11 minutes ago, nomates said:

The trainers i spoke to in the UK when i went to some meetings last year all said they spell horses . Whilst successful can't say any of them were household names but certainly had worked for some of the big names in UK racing . MY understanding is that whilst they may not spell for long , especially summer horses , they were brought into light work mainly because of winter conditions didn't allow that and just pottered around with . A lot of the trainers have indoor arena's big enough for trotting and cantering during this period . The training methods are very different to Australasia , lots of long slow work on downs and whilst they can fit a horse for a first up win at 2400mtr i think you'll find those horses have been in work for a lot longer than 2 months .

As for the Japanese , My understanding is those big gun horses that come to Aussie have basically been in work for years , no spells , just periods of very light work , i suspect very similar to Singapore and HK .

Personally i don't know of any respected trainer that would bring a horse in from a spell and have it in a 2000 mtrs race 8 weeks later . i would suspect if this happened it would be bottom a horse . Modern horses are no where tough as they used to be , they are much finer than in the past . That said , in horse racing there is always the exception .

Suppose it depends what you consider a spell from full training. Whether that means no work or can include light work.

[curious]

5 minutes ago, curious said:

Well I told him he needs to give me at least 3 figure odds because of that, the 60/1 ratio of horses on the books and the fact that I don't have a trainer's licence. No response yet.

Maybe the bet should be effective from July 4th?

[nomates]

Just now, curious said:

Suppose it depends what you consider a spell from full training. Whether that means no work or can include light work.

Never heard anybody say they are putting their horse out for a spell but giving it light work . A spell means a spell . You can draw a horses work back after a couple of hard races and just give it light work . If you have a break from work but keep working are you really having a break .

[curious]

12 minutes ago, nomates said:

Never heard anybody say they are putting their horse out for a spell but giving it light work .

Really? I know a fair few "spelling" in the lockdown period that were in light work. I suppose you don't have to call that spelling if you don't want to but that was my point.

[nomates]

17 minutes ago, curious said:

Really? I know a fair few "spelling" in the lockdown period that were in light work. I suppose you don't have to call that spelling if you don't want to but that was my point.

Simantics , they had their horses in light work , i wouldn't and many others i know wouldn't call that spelling .

[mardigras]

4 minutes ago, nomates said:

Simantics , they had their horses in light work , i wouldn't and many others i know wouldn't call that spelling .

I think Gai Waterhouse calls that spelling. She has said she finds suitable properties for her horses to spell - bearing in mind their individual needs - which could be things likes water walkers etc.

[curious]

14 minutes ago, nomates said:

Simantics , they had their horses in light work , i wouldn't and many others i know wouldn't call that spelling .

As I said, you can call it what you like or not. I've run spelling operations where horses came from trainers with instructions for the "spell" along the lines of 2 weeks completely off. Then a 1 1/2 mile canter 3 times a week finished off with a furlong of 3/4 every week or so. I can certainly remember examples of those horses winning fresh up at 1 1/2 miles within 8 weeks of going back into full work.

[mardigras]

And I'm still waiting to hear how long it would be expected to take to get a fat horse from the paddock to a 2000m+ race.

If the way things are done here mean it takes so long to get a horse to the races (in a suitable race), why not change the way things are done? Don't send it for a spell, keep it in light work etc etc.

The idea behind racing a horse in 1400 - 1600m races for the purposes of getting it fit, is a shocker.

[curious]

4 minutes ago, mardigras said:

I think Gai Waterhouse calls that spelling. She has said she finds suitable properties for her horses to spell - bearing in mind their individual needs - which could be things likes water walkers etc.

Yes. I don't have to go far to find horses "spelling" at the moment that are maybe being lunged every other day or going on the treadmill or walker or whatever.