Ratings ?

[Joe Bloggs]

I could have said Ratings WTF.......I'm confused, [not hard] I see trainers are running 60 rating horses against in some cases R90's.........and so forth.......way out of their ratings bands........so that will surely stuff your chance's of winning a few? would it not? Done though desperation I would have thought, and in some cases thwart any chance of selling the horses onto Oz ....not Asia I realise that.

The handicapping and Ratings system have been a joke for years, but this is just mind numbing........I have no idea how the Handicapper in VIC/NSW/BNE will fathom all this, a 2 win horse thats won 15/16k arriving into Oz and being assessed as an almost open co horse as it beat a R90 field.....it makes no sense, why not go back to class racing, like we used to........it's not rocket science, and good luck to all the poor owners and trainers that are now up against the wall with the firing squad at the ready!

Fuckwitism is the growth industry of the 21st century.

[Freda]

1 hour ago, Joe Bloggs said:

I could have said Ratings WTF.......I'm confused, [not hard] I see trainers are running 60 rating horses against in some cases R90's.........and so forth.......way out of their ratings bands........so that will surely stuff your chance's of winning a few? would it not? Done though desperation I would have thought, and in some cases thwart any chance of selling the horses onto Oz ....not Asia I realise that.

The handicapping and Ratings system have been a joke for years, but this is just mind numbing........I have no idea how the Handicapper in VIC/NSW/BNE will fathom all this, a 2 win horse thats won 15/16k arriving into Oz and being assessed as an almost open co horse as it beat a R90 field.....it makes no sense, why not go back to class racing, like we used to........it's not rocket science, and good luck to all the poor owners and trainers that are now up against the wall with the firing squad at the ready!

Fuckwitism is the growth industry of the 21st century.

It sure is.

However, the open entry model ( which I personally favour,  although not like this )  does ameliorate the stupid scenario we have had with 65 r horses balloted and eliminated time after time, with higher rating fields going to post with 5, 6, 8 runners.

While this system is in vogue ratings penalties have been capped so as not to disadvantage those winners off a low mark.

[Joe Bloggs]

Thanks Freda, at least a ceiling is applied, however, if the winner is exported I fear the hcper here will look at the opposition the winner beat and apply the hip accordingly.

Chatting to a metro trainer, he said same, as soon as we hear more here I'll let you know.

[Joe Bloggs]

Forgive me, it's only 6-30am here and pouring, however, I see Hawera or the brains trust scheduled a R65 1400 and it's now split with a 22k payday for one div and a 10k for the other........

Surely if you have nommed expecting to race for 22 and find you're racing for 10 you can scr without penalty? I know we are in trying times but this is just bending the owner/trainer over a fence isn't it?

[nomates]

51 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Forgive me, it's only 6-30am here and pouring, however, I see Hawera or the brains trust scheduled a R65 1400 and it's now split with a 22k payday for one div and a 10k for the other........

Surely if you have nommed expecting to race for 22 and find you're racing for 10 you can scr without penalty? I know we are in trying times but this is just bending the owner/trainer over a fence isn't it?

Their thinking is we should just be grateful they are putting on another race for  lower rated horses , done the same with both the 1400 and the 1600 65s . Just bow and scrap as you move away saying thankyou . 

Will give them their due , they did split the mdn 1300 into 3 races to give everyone a crack .

Does one right out weigh a wrong .

[Freda]

Yeah, well, despite the glowing reports from Rita/Tab about stakes allocations being at least at pre-covid levels,  I think it would be fairly obvious that there isn't a surfeit of money.  Add the extra cost of the very welcome free starts and starting incentives,  and think the option is a modest stake or none....but at least you have the chance to earn a few more points and miss the cut next time.

Scratching without penalty is probably a bridge too far!

I'm normally very critical but , as an owner, it is just such a relief to get a payment ( albeit small ) instead of a bloody bill.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Freda

[Joe Bloggs]

I might not have been as succinct as I would have liked Freda, the only reason our horses are still in NZ is the advertised stake is almost as good as here in QLD at 22.5K......that's SAT stake money on the Goldie........so, imagine the surprise and disgust to see some poor buggers that accepted now racing for half that........if they had prior knowledge and accepted those terms, then poor fool them.

That wreaks of desperation and I feel sorry for them.......mine, if that happens to ours in the coming weeks, the direction will be, head north to runway 1 Mangere, and take off for Oz, the sunshine, the good tracks and if they are hopeless they can race at bush bush tracks for the same as R65 at Awapuni Sat........10k.

[All The Aces]

The two races that were advertised for Hawera ie the R65 1400m & R65 1600m are both racing for the advertised stake ie $22.500.

Had they just left it at those two races then the ones that missed out making the field would be staying at home in their boxes and earning zilch and nobody wins.

By adding the two additional races at $10,000 it at least allows them to run for some stake money and also earn the opportunity to earn some extra rating points to help them gain a start next time.

Both $10k races are at capacity so it would appear the stake is no deterrent and they are happy to go around.

There have been 4 extra races added to the programme when you add in two further maiden1300m races with stakes also at $10k each.

That is an extra $40k in stake money going to owners, trainers and jockeys, not a bad result I would have thought.

     

[Noodlum]

9 minutes ago, All The Aces said:

Both $10k races are at capacity so it would appear the stake is no deterrent and they are happy to go around.

There have been 4 extra races added to the programme when you add in two further maiden1300m races with stakes also at $10k each.

But doesn't it make a mockery of the Saturday vs mid week differential?

Wouldn't it have been better for all if the $10k + $22k was split i.e. $16k for both races?

[Joe Bloggs]

Thank you Noodlum, you at least get it.......ATA doesn't, if you are happy with being diddled like that then you deserve one another, how bloody insulting, as I said, I'll take my bat and ball and bugger off, racing Saturday for what, 5k even less when trainer and jock percentage go and not to mention the travel costs....you have to be joking......if you've got a Saturday class horse, send it over.

[nomates]

This is what happens when you are only programming one meeting a week in a region .

49 minutes ago, All The Aces said:

That is an extra $40k in stake money going to owners, trainers and jockeys, not a bad result I would have thought.

 

If there had been another meeting during the week there would have been 4 more races , so 40k saved , and 40k less for owners , trainers and jocks . 

They are trying to micro manage meetings , whilst it gives benefits it will also have it's negatives , this is one of them .

[All The Aces]

57 minutes ago, Noodlum said:

But doesn't it make a mockery of the Saturday vs mid week differential?

Wouldn't it have been better for all if the $10k + $22k was split i.e. $16k for both races?

No because the Actual race was advertised for $22.5k

[All The Aces]

52 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Thank you Noodlum, you at least get it.......ATA doesn't, if you are happy with being diddled like that then you deserve one another, how bloody insulting, as I said, I'll take my bat and ball and bugger off, racing Saturday for what, 5k even less when trainer and jock percentage go and not to mention the travel costs....you have to be joking......if you've got a Saturday class horse, send it over.

You are the one who doesn't get it.

If they hadn't put on another race there would be no other horses going around at all ie at home looking at four walls. At least there is an opportunity to race. They don't have to take it do they.

[Noodlum]

4 minutes ago, All The Aces said:

No because the Actual race was advertised for $22.5k

You miss my point.  If an additional race is added on a SATURDAY shouldn't it have the same stake.  That's the mockery.

[Joe Bloggs]

He's a Joker not an Ace........

[Freda]

1 hour ago, Noodlum said:

You miss my point.  If an additional race is added on a SATURDAY shouldn't it have the same stake.  That's the mockery.

Should....but the outfit it so close to broke that it's not possible.

I get what you and Joe are saying...it's just that you have have to tailor your suit to the cloth...or however that goes. 

Better half a chance than none. 

' Tiered '  stakes are a nonsense anyway in NZ...there isn't the population or system to do it properly,  hence stupid anomalies such as highlighted. 

[curious]

3 hours ago, All The Aces said:

That is an extra $40k in stake money going to owners, trainers and jockeys, not a bad result I would have thought.

     

Extra to what?

[Joe Bloggs]

I agree, tiered stakes are a joke, only a utopia could offer that. I'm talking the impossible, however, until all at Petone are gone and fresh blood, young, old, whatever, whomever, as long as they have a passion and knowledge of our industry they should find a home in the western locale of Jackson St.

Who gets to choose the 'new staff' I don't know as the selection process of Jackson, Allen, and especially the women who proudly announced at her inauguration ceremony we all witnessed,.....'' I just went in today and opened a TAB account'' led many of us to the obvious conclusion that we were doomed.

Molloy's intellect is beyond question, he could have been the switch/light......but he is the Rodney Dangerfield of racing, excuse my French, but what a fkn waste, he could have contributed so much, he knew/knows the oxygen thieves, the imposters and to find intellect, passion and business acumen alongside racing ring craft is nigh on impossible, that's why we are where we are.

There are some that must be trying hard, but they need direction, the TAB will need another handout, sooner rather than later, it wont be long until the public wake up, an investigative journalist will sniff what's coming and there will be trouble, big trouble.

The cartel will be ok, they are solvent, their futures defined by happenings past, NZ needs the Te Akau Sharks, the Melody Belles, as racings credibility is shrinking, and financially it is doomed unless there is massive upheaval.

I mooted this more than 10 years ago, I was laughed at, the Ostrich's heads were buried so far in the sand, or in their wallets, they didn't want to know or didn't understand, and as you all know, ignorance is not an excuse in the eyes of the law or fiduciary duty.

Pain is natures warning, be it physical or financial, take heed, and remember prevention is far better than cure....oldies, but goodies.

[Freda]

Can't disagree with any of that.

What is so gutting is the fact that, over the years, there have been so many good ideas floated  - yes, and a fair bit of crap too - but nothing has been taken from those ideas that has made a difference.

[Chief Stipe]

When you look at OZ it makes you wonder why anyone bothers here.  I like checking out where some of these OZ meetings are held.

Today I checked out Barcaldine.  A town of 1,400 people 500km inland from Rockhampton on the Capricorn Highway.  Middle of nowhere!

Barcaldine
Queensland 4725, Australia
https://maps.app.goo.gl/af4yXkyNGU8j5gHe8

$11,000 races! 

Of course we all know where Alice Springs is.  All races there today were $18,000.

[Bid]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

When you look at OZ it makes you wonder why anyone bothers here.  I like checking out where some of these OZ meetings are held.

Today I checked out Barcaldine.  A town of 1,400 people 500km inland from Rockhampton on the Capricorn Highway.  Middle of nowhere!

Barcaldine
Queensland 4725, Australia
https://maps.app.goo.gl/af4yXkyNGU8j5gHe8

$11,000 races! 

Of course we all know where Alice Springs is.  All races there today were $18,000.

What about Chinchilla today $7500 stakes. Would midweek horses in NZ be much better than those going around there?

[Joe Bloggs]

Midweek horses would go through to open class out there, at 5k to the winner, 6 races from winning a maiden, doesn't sound like much, but 30k plus a strong bookies ring, and what price the experience?

Believe it or not, they run 1-9 and 1-22's out there and on the sand mostly, and jocks fly up from the Sunny Coast and beyond.......what options, amazing, and when the COVID is a memory the best boot parties on the planet.

[Freda]

9 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Midweek horses would go through to open class out there, at 5k to the winner, 6 races from winning a maiden, doesn't sound like much, but 30k plus a strong bookies ring, and what price the experience?

Believe it or not, they run 1-9 and 1-22's out there and on the sand mostly, and jocks fly up from the Sunny Coast and beyond.......what options, amazing, and when the COVID is a memory the best boot parties on the planet.

Sounds idyllic.

That's tiered racing done properly. 

Was talking to Gunner Nyhan not so long ago, he left years ago with Jan Cameron ( jockey)  to ply their trades in and around Alice Springs, I was gobsmacked when he told me the stakes in the regions. 

I have never been able to understand why successive administrations have not been able to look at the best system in the world and learn.

The UK has fantastic history and prestige,  but stakes for the lesser lights are poor by comparison,  and the various Asian regimes have little in common with our geography and history.

Australia most closely mirrors NZ in terms of development as a nation as well as the mix of ethnicities...but boy, have we made a mess of our racing structures. 

[Huey]

Unfortunately they ain't gonna get it right in 5mins, I see no problem with splitting the race to a lesser stake, it's hard enough to get your horse a start as it is if you're down the ratings at least they are attempting to put on races.

The programming has always been poor at the moment it's probably the worst it's been there is no progressive thought in the NZ calendar around leading horses through distances ,grades,tiers or to the bigger events they (racemeetings) do seem to be just thrown together. 

[Chief Stipe]

3 minutes ago, Huey said:

I see no problem with splitting the race to a lesser stake

My point is it is a mockery.  They have created a tier yet when it suits they throw that tier out the window.  You will probably find that the lesser stake race subsidised the higher stake race in terms of return in revenue.  Is that fair?

Can't they afford the put on extra races at their previous advertised tier rates?  If not then get rid of the tiers.  Align stakes to revenue returns and horse numbers.  Stop this aspirational stake bullshit and get the lower ranks up and running.  Then we may get some decent fields flowing through.  The R99 "open" race at Hawera was a joke of a handicap race.

I also find it amusing that all the constraints we were led to believe existed in the past are no longer relevant.  For example how quick were they in the pre-financial insolvency period to put on extra races if there were large numbers of nominations?  Remember all the excuses they trotted out.