Riccarton All Weather Track - Q & A Forum 16 September 2020 - PLEASE READ.

[Joe Bloggs]

I've spoken about the kickback on many occasions and spoke with many trainers at Newmarket about their concerns. I wouldn't risk my valuable horse on an AWT, how do you explain to the owners the horse has a damaged retina or similar? Plus many just wont chase, can you blame them? The cunning ones most certainly wont, however let them spend your money, the attrition trainers will train winners simply through numbers and culling [history repeats] and just wait until the show is flat broke and Jacinda has to put a chair under the door knob to keep the Petone suits at bay.......'' please miss, can we have some more''.....I can hear it from here.......FFS.

[curious]

1 hour ago, Joe Bloggs said:

I've spoken about the kickback on many occasions and spoke with many trainers at Newmarket about their concerns. I wouldn't risk my valuable horse on an AWT, how do you explain to the owners the horse has a damaged retina or similar? Plus many just wont chase, can you blame them? The cunning ones most certainly wont, however let them spend your money, the attrition trainers will train winners simply through numbers and culling [history repeats] and just wait until the show is flat broke and Jacinda has to put a chair under the door knob to keep the Petone suits at bay.......'' please miss, can we have some more''.....I can hear it from here.......FFS.

And they didn't fix it! This 2 years later..........

Trainers not happy with Pakenham polytrack

Posted by: AAP+ at 2:28pm on 22/7/2019

 

Posted in: Horse Racing News

Trainer Colin Little has been one of the biggest supporters of synthetic track racing in Victoria and does not want his scratching of a runner at Pakenham to be seen as a knock on the Polytrack.

Little sought stewards permission to scratch Peko from a race at Pakenham on Sunday and will undertake an inspection of the track before deciding whether Vegas Knight takes his place on Tuesday.

The trainer was concerned at the excessive amount of kickback at Sunday’s meeting and that a number of horses returned post-race coughing.

Under those circumstances Little felt it was unsafe for Peko to race.

Little has no doubts the problems can be rectified and spoke to Polytrack’s Australian managing director Reid Sanders who was heading to Pakenham on Monday.

“We’ve got the same track at Caulfield. We’ve had it for six years and it’s saved our lives,” Little said.

“Pakenham has spent the most money you can spend on an artificial track and it’s the best artificial track we’ve seen and everyone is putting them in because it’s the best track.

“But like what happens to turf, sometimes grass is no good. Something has happened to Pakenham recently and in my opinion it was no good yesterday.”

Little said he does not want to be seen as bagging Polytrack and walked the track after the last race on Sunday with Pakenham chief executive Michael Hodge.

Hodge tweeted on Sunday night Polytrack was arriving to power harrow the track ahead of Tuesday’s nine race card.

Little said the track was terribly loose and what the industry called “delaminated”.

“I’m sure they’ll fix it,” he said.

“It’s not Pakenham’s fault in the sense. They’ve gone out and spent the most amount of money that’s possible to get the best track in the world, but yesterday, and possibly Friday, it’s gone pear-shaped.

“I feel sorry for Pakenham. I didn’t want to be giving them a kicking, but I had to stick up for my horse.”

[Chief Stipe]

I think it is sad that New Zealand racing has got to this level.  It certainly isn't what got me passionate about the sport.

We hear many reasons for why we need AWT's - lost race days, poor training surfaces, and so on.  These reasons are largely BS.  Take for instance the "lost race days" reason.  There isn't a racing jurisdiction in the World that doesn't lose racedays.  Storms in Hong Kong, excessive heat in Sydney or Melbourne, surface flooding anywhere!  That is the risk of a sport held outdoors.

That aside the reality in New Zealand is that many of the cancelled meetings in New Zealand (there aren't many!) have been due to mismanagement rather than climate.  By that I mean poor turf culture, soil management and irrigation policies.

The fact is these issues have got worse NOT because we have TOO many racecourses but because we have reduced the number that we have available.  Effectively pushing the same number of races onto fewer surfaces.

In my opinion a horse was designed (evolved) to gallop on grass (turf) NOT sand or polyfiller.  Aesthetically racing on turf  looks better - it looks natural. The Punter likes it, the spectator likes it.

New Zealands has batted above its weight in Thoroughbred racing for a long time.  Nightmarch, Pharlap, Kindergarten, the Eight Carat clan, Bonecrusher and on and on.  In my opinion we achieved that through good grass and good breeding and we raced on good turf.

Why further diminish our key advantages by racing and training our horses on Polyfiller?  Doing that in the numbers that are proposed will only negate the advantages we have.  It will diminish the NZ breed.

The fact is the reason why NZ Racing is in the shyte is because of the revenue arm - the monopolistic NZ TAB.  That has and is holding us back.  Three AWT's isnt going to change any of that.

[curious]

I want to be clear that I am not opposed to using, training or racing on AWTs if they are maintained and working as they are supposed to. However, the Trainers' Association or someone needs to hound NZTR and/or  the clubs concerned for accurate costing analysis and the implications for owners those will have. They also need to ensure that adeqquate measures are in place to mitigate any other issues such as the kickback ones. I agree with Joe Bloggs that there is no better way to destroy a horse's confidence, perhaps permanently. The course proper at Riccarton with its cutting out nature is already bad enough.

[Joe Bloggs]

In addition to your very succinct post above Chief, might I add, we now have a very new and different horse person in the mix......bloodstock agents, horse traders, we never had them back then, you know, the good old days...these people that over inflate horse values, spend other peoples money, live high on the hog and yet in all reality don't have an efen clue.....they and the new breed of racing executive, the so called NZ bookmaker...don't make me laugh, I have a mate locked up in Quarantine out at Manakau as he had to return to NZ......an Aussie married to a Kiwi with Kiwi kids......he is a betting tragic, raised on the rails and paddock bookies over here, the relentless search for top odds, you know the drill, well only the other day he was betting away on his Oz bookie site and thought to compare his odds with that of NZ TAB......he was getting 1-15 the place, NZ TAB was trying to woo him with ....wait for it.....1-02.........how the hell will you ever win over punters with that  mentality?.......of course he knows the pitfalls of having a NZ TAB account, and the misery and despair that goes with it.......so another potential customer bolts.......strike me dead, it's despicable and deplorable.....

[nomates]

6 minutes ago, curious said:

the Trainers' Association or someone needs to hound NZTR and/or  the clubs concerned for accurate costing analysis and the implications for owners those will have.

Their president is all for them , he trains at Cambridge , he has already stated that it will be great to have the A/W for training and trialing thru the winter and of course getting his group horses ready for spring and Australia . He doesn't have to pay the track fees , the owner will cop that . All up side for him as a trainer . Plus the TA holds as much power now as a paper bag holding water .

[curious]

7 minutes ago, nomates said:

 . Plus the TA holds as much power now as a paper bag holding water .

The TA will never have any power if they don't proactively, logically and informedly do something about these sort of things which is bloody hard when they are hanging on sucking the NZTR tit.

Edited September 17, 2020 by curious

[Chief Stipe]

4 minutes ago, nomates said:

Their president is all for them , he trains at Cambridge

Cambridge is a classic case of self-interest.  They screwed to death their main turf training track and so needed to invest in something.  They say they are "the largest Thoroughbred training centre in the Southern Hemisphere by horse numbers" yet can't afford to fund their AWT!

[nomates]

22 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Take for instance the "lost race days" reason. 

The whole A/W issue arose off the back of one exceptionally bad season , 42 meetings lost , that was 3/4 seasons ago . Hadn't been a season similar before or since , but it suits the agenda . Some of the rains we had that year would have stopped A/W track racing , but it suits the agenda .

Still haven't been able to find an answer or get a reply to the question , " how much exactly did the racing industry lose in revenue due to this loss of meetings " . Surely they know the cost to racing to understand whether the investment in A/W's is a prudent financial investment , Surely .

[nomates]

5 minutes ago, curious said:

The TA will never have any power if they don't proactively, logically and informedly do something about these sort of things which is bloody hard when they are hanging on sucking the NZTR tit.

The TA has performed so poorly for so long that their membership numbers had plunged to the stage that about 3 seasons ago joining the TA was mandatory to getting your trainers licence , an extra $240 on top of the licence . So yea beholding to NZTR for sure , effing disgraceful situation , but it sums up how NZ racing is becoming more and more about , you do what we want and you can jump in the bed with us .

[Chief Stipe]

9 minutes ago, nomates said:

42 meetings lost

I dont think that's correct.

[nomates]

11 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Cambridge is a classic case of self-interest.  They screwed to death their main turf training track and so needed to invest in something.  They say they are "the largest Thoroughbred training centre in the Southern Hemisphere by horse numbers" yet can't afford to fund their AWT!

They can afford to pay their own way , but why would they when they can get the taxpayer to stump up . It's the way of the world now .

[nomates]

1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said:

I dont think that's correct.

Not far off but that was across all codes , galloping lost the majority of meetings tho . That's when the likes of Pike and other big names came out in the media saying we needed to do something to ensure we had racing . like i said tho , hadn't lost any where near that many meetings prior or since , it suited the agenda and Peters seen a vote getter .

[Chief Stipe]

Just now, nomates said:

Not far off but that was across all codes , galloping lost the majority of meetings tho . That's when the likes of Pike and other big names came out in the media saying we needed to do something to ensure we had racing . like i said tho , hadn't lost any where near that many meetings prior or since , it suited the agenda and Peters seen a vote getter .

Na.  It was nowhere near 42. 

[nomates]

7 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Na.  It was nowhere near 42. 

Doesn't matter tho , if i'm right , it was a one off , if your right then even more misguided to be jumping on the lost revenue / we need A/W tracks bandwagon . Over reaction either way .

[Chief Stipe]

9 minutes ago, nomates said:

Doesn't matter tho , if i'm right , it was a one off , if your right then even more misguided to be jumping on the lost revenue / we need A/W tracks bandwagon . Over reaction either way .

The abandoned figures quoted by Winnie were always wrong.  There has never been many galloping meetings abandoned in a season.  Not only that those that were abandoned were never budgeted for.  I did an analysis during the Purcell era and they would have been well short of stakes for the year.

[curious]

38 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

The abandoned figures quoted by Winnie were always wrong.  There has never been many galloping meetings abandoned in a season.  Not only that those that were abandoned were never budgeted for.  I did an analysis during the Purcell era and they would have been well short of stakes for the year.

Where does the lost stake money go?

[Chief Stipe]

3 minutes ago, curious said:

Where does the lost stake money go?

They didn't have the "lost" stake money i.e. they budgeted for abandoned meetings!

I assume that their assumption was that the "extra" meetings would pay for themselves.  

[curious]

1 hour ago, nomates said:

The TA has performed so poorly for so long that their membership numbers had plunged to the stage that about 3 seasons ago joining the TA was mandatory to getting your trainers licence , an extra $240 on top of the licence . So yea beholding to NZTR for sure , effing disgraceful situation , but it sums up how NZ racing is becoming more and more about , you do what we want and you can jump in the bed with us .

It's now free membership but pretty much still compulsory unless you go to some effort to opt out. Has the TA surveyed all trainers on the AWT thing or is it just a few squeaky wheels holding sway?

[curious]

Just now, curious said:

It's now free membership but pretty much still compulsory unless you go to some effort to opt out. That's because NZTR pay them 80k a year to cover costs. Has the TA surveyed all trainers on the AWT thing or is it just a few squeaky wheels holding sway?

 

[Pitman]

2 hours ago, curious said:

 

why would you survey all trainers. There are plenty in Canterbury who have licenses that hardly ever race a horse let alone have any successs. yet they have plenty to say about various subjects they have never experienced. The AWT being one of them. Geez they can't even go to a meeting arranged to discuss said track, if they had gone they would be much wiser and informed. I believe Tim Mills sent out close to 120 emails inviting people to attend, shows how few are interested in the future of local racing

Amanda Pascoe, Anna furlong, Kevin Hughes, Danny Frye, Brian Court, Ross Beckett, Lance Robinson, Matthew Pitman and I, along with a couple of owner/trainers were license holders that attended. Kavish Chowdhoory being the only jockey

[curious]

Isn't it a matter for all Canterbury licensed trainers and owners to consider and comment on? And why should they only have the opportunity to do so by a staged meeting? Surely the detailed analysis and costings should be circulated to all for feedback. How hard can that be?

Edited September 17, 2020 by curious

[Pitman]

Come on, stop stirring. every local license holder and others were invited by email to attend, listen and have their say, they chose not to. A staged meeting FFS how else would you do it.

I don't think they have the final costings yet that is why the project is not yet confirmed. So bit hard without all analysis and costings

Have you ever bothered asking Tim Mills direct or are you intent on stirring which you have constantly done for weeks

F you even thought you could train a winner after lock down before me, have you had a runner?

Also Freda's partner Martin Dunne attended,(my apologies Martin)  ask Freda about the meeting I'm sure she knows everything

[curious]

Also, most trainers and owners who are not full time have other jobs and are unlikely to be able to attend a 1pm meeting in Christchurch. No video conferencing facility was provided which is the norm these days especially during Covid times. No copy of the presentations and Q&A session has been provided as far as I am aware even though the chief has offered to post it here. It's the 21st century. Not 1950.

[Pitman]

Hey  RING TIM MILLS

and ask him