Riccarton All Weather Track - Q & A Forum 16 September 2020 - PLEASE READ.

[Joe Bloggs]

12 hours ago, Reefton said:

Not sure there are too many Riccarton Trainers against it to be fair.  Some may just be a little worried about what the costs of maintenance will do to track fees(and that is I think a good reason to have a business plan so these people know what it is they are looking at in terms of fees). 

Logically he(Mills) would declare his support - it wouldn't look too good for the CEO of a joint that had just been given $10m ex the PGF to declare that he didn't like or support the idea surely?

I'm not the trainers advocate however if many are opposed the concerns should have been raised and the opposition voiced, the closure of so many tracks and forced relocation for trainers, or they retire, whatever. the grass track at Riccarton is now almost a goner, and what happens when the construction begins, it's not going to work, there'll be an accident for sure and some will skulk off into the early morning mists......

In a nutshell, when you discover your horse wont chase through the kickback and you look at your training bill and then look at the programming and what alternatives you have, ahhhh.......gavelhouse will be the winners with that.......

Wouldn't it be lovely if evolution produced a club CEO that stood up and addressed the board and said '' After consensus with all our trainers and their owners it's our wish you provide us with the funding for a strathayr and funding for an upgrade to our training facilities so all these people are kept happy and content and produce numbers to support our race days going forward.'' ''We realise many horses resent the kickback and it will be reflected in tote turnover to everyones detriment''.

If the majority want the AWT, and they realise what may well happen, then it's a given, one goes in, if the majority vote it down, it should be dead in the water....end of.....IMO of course.

[Chief Stipe]

I think Tim might a wee bit off with the $65,000 a year.  According to RV and the new Ballarat Polytrack.....

RV executive general manager for infrastructure and club support Jamie McGuinness said not only would there be an initial outlay of about $8 million to build the track, the industry was committed to spending more than $6m every eight to 10 years to replace the surface of each synthetic track.

https://www.thecourier.com.au/story/5245654/synthetic-racetrack-major-gain-for-ballarat/

[Joe Bloggs]

13 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

More from Tim Mills.  I think they are very optimistic at $65,000 annual maintenance costs.  Mills says if it is over that then it isn't sustainable!  The costs to maintain the turf track will remain and will probably increase - we all know that there is an underlying (excuse the pun) issue with the main turf track.

“If it’s costing $5,000 a week, which is $250,000 a year, there is no way we can run it. Our information is it will cost between $55,000 and $65,000 a year to maintain, and if you look at what we pay to maintain grass tracks, the plough and sand tracks, it’s not in excess of that figure.

Alarm bells........NZ racing ended up where it has because of ineptitude, mismanagement and apathy........surely you all must be a wakeup to these people by now? You don't run Air NZ by the seat of your pants, or guessing, a stab in the dark methodology is at work here, when this so called roadshow hits town I hope you all ask the travelling salesmen from Petone that you need to ''look at the books''.........it rhythms with cooked the books doesn't it........now that wouldn't have happened in years past would it? nah, no way.......

[Chief Stipe]

49 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

$6m every eight to 10 years to replace the surface of each synthetic track.

I'm not sure if this figure is for just Ballarat or for all tracks under RV's jurisdiction.  Even so RV is limiting their polytrack's to only 2 or 3.  So if it is 3 then that's $2m every 10 years just to replace the surface.  That's AUD$200,000 a year.

Add to that yearly running costs then north of NZD$300,000 per year just for the Polytrack at Riccarton is not unreasonable.

[Reefton]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

I think Tim might a wee bit off with the $65,000 a year.  According to RV and the new Ballarat Polytrack.....

RV executive general manager for infrastructure and club support Jamie McGuinness said not only would there be an initial outlay of about $8 million to build the track, the industry was committed to spending more than $6m every eight to 10 years to replace the surface of each synthetic track.

https://www.thecourier.com.au/story/5245654/synthetic-racetrack-major-gain-for-ballarat/

Foik you guys are doing a lot more research into this than I have.  Where will this leave Cambridge and Awapuni if they come to the end of ten years and the track needs re-laying at $7m plus each?

I knew there was a problem with some horses not liking them and trainers likewise but NZ racing needs to produce a comprehensive plan as to how they are going to fund these things down the track.  At the time of the venue review I read that on a average day in Victoria on the polytrack they turn over $7.5m - they will be lucky to turn over $750,000 in NZ and they are already broke.

Seems like utter madness to me and a guarantee of massive track fee increases at Riccarton leading to exactly the opposite of what is intended(ie no horses in training at the centre).

Even more reason to get rid of the dump and relocate somewhere less valuable and which can be purpose built for the modern needs at a fraction of the cost both initial and ongoing.  That info about the problems with temperature changes  should be really ringing alarm bells in a place like Christchurch where it is 25 degrees one day and 5 degrees the next.

Saundry - being a Victorian - will be well aware of all these issues I presume - what is he doing to make Clubs and stakeholders aware of what they are looking at long term?

Or is it just the 'let tomorrow worry about itself' attitude at play here?

 

 

 

[curious]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

I think Tim might a wee bit off with the $65,000 a year.  According to RV and the new Ballarat Polytrack.....

RV executive general manager for infrastructure and club support Jamie McGuinness said not only would there be an initial outlay of about $8 million to build the track, the industry was committed to spending more than $6m every eight to 10 years to replace the surface of each synthetic track.

https://www.thecourier.com.au/story/5245654/synthetic-racetrack-major-gain-for-ballarat/

That's consistent with the figures I've seen for maintenance in the US. The likes of Cambridge with several hundred horses using daily it may be more like every 4-5 years for full replacement and top ups are required in between. You also have the cost of daily manual removal of any manure on the surface. I'm bicking Tim's figure is probably 10% or less of the actual maintenance cost. Be interesting to know how that was arrived at.

[curious]

Just now, curious said:

That's consistent with the figures I've seen for maintenance in the US. The likes of Cambridge with several hundred horses using daily it may be more like every 4-5 years for full replacement and top ups are required in between. You also have the cost of daily manual removal of any manure on the surface. I'm picking Tim's figure is probably 10% or less of the actual maintenance cost. Be interesting to know how that was arrived at.

 

[Chief Stipe]

Just now, curious said:

I'm picking Tim's figure is probably 10% or less of the actual maintenance cost. Be interesting to know how that was arrived at.

In defence of Tim it appears that he is being led down the path by Saundry/NZTR.

 

[Chief Stipe]

For the life of me I can't understand why you would close down tracks that pay their way in terms of yearly maintenance.  Some are quite creative in doing that - cropping and livestock sales.

[Chief Stipe]

I know that this has been discussed before but who owns the land that Riccarton is on?

[mikeynz]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Quote from De Lore, The Optimist interview with Pitty:

Leading South Island and Riccarton trainer Michael Pitman makes no bones about where he stands in the Riccarton Polytrack debate.

He says: “No one knows how much it’s going to cost; that’s the thing that annoys me. They have a ballpark figure; it could be as low as $12 or $13 million, but it could be as high as $18 million, but they don’t know until the design plan is finalised.

Michael Pitman: I want to see more racing at Riccarton, and I don’t want to travel anymore…

“Personally, and I’m looking at this through rose coloured glass. I am based at Riccarton and have my own property at Yaldhurst, and I want to see more racing at Riccarton, and I don’t want to travel anymore because I’m sick of it.”

When asked what Michael Pitman would say to the people in Southland who might lose dates and have to travel more, Michael responded, “I agree with that, they probably will have to travel more, but that’s life.

“

Interesting comments from trainer,maybe if the south got more meetings and didn't bother going to Riccarton would that be good for racing?

[Reefton]

1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said:

I know that this has been discussed before but who owns the land that Riccarton is on?

Some sort of community/charitable Trust isn't it?  They had to get legislation to change the use of the part they 'sold' and it must be crown land of some sort because Ngai Tahu got first dibs on buying it.

Yet another disaster for NZ racing though - from the sounds of things Ngai Tahu has not yet paid the CJC any money from the section sales and for God's sake after all those years of prosperity(admittedly a long time ago) you would wonder why the CJC had never moved to freehold the bloody place. 

NZ racing seems to stagger from one shit hole to the next and the only ones with any common sense are all being eyed up to get them out of the current mire

 

[curious]

17 minutes ago, curious said:

That's consistent with the figures I've seen for maintenance in the US. The likes of Cambridge with several hundred horses using daily it may be more like every 4-5 years for full replacement and top ups are required in between. You also have the cost of daily manual removal of any manure on the surface. I'm bicking Tim's figure is probably 10% or less of the actual maintenance cost. Be interesting to know how that was arrived at.

Oops.... I meant to add that they'll be lucky if that aannual estimate covers much more than the irrigation costs.

[curious]

Have we lost the edit function or is it just me?

 

[Freda]

5 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

I know that this has been discussed before but who owns the land that Riccarton is on?

Racecourse Reserve Trustees administer it.   I think [ but don't hang me if I'm wrong ]    ownership is vested in that Trust, from the time that the Founding Fathers of Christchurch City donated the land for the recreational use by, and support of racing and breeding for, the people of Canterbury.

[curious]

3 minutes ago, Freda said:

Racecourse Reserve Trustees administer it.   I think [ but don't hang me if I'm wrong ]    ownership is vested in that Trust, from the time that the Founding Fathers of Christchurch City donated the land for the recreational use by, and support of racing and breeding for, the people of Canterbury.

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/local/1878/0029/latest/whole.html

[Freda]

I also understand, that the then Housing Minister, Nick Smith, who was also the Minister of Conservation,  was only able to swing the sale of the portion referred to by ensuring that Ngai Tahu were in the frame first...and that housing as opposed to commercial developments were specified.  National needed housing.

Of course,  Ngai Tahu are under no such constraints, with the on-sale to Ryman Healthcare of a nice chunk of the property.

[curious]

9 minutes ago, Reefton said:

Yet another disaster for NZ racing though - from the sounds of things Ngai Tahu has not yet paid the CJC any money from the section sales and for God's sake after all those years of prosperity(admittedly a long time ago) you would wonder why the CJC had never moved to freehold the bloody place.

Don't see how you could freehold something you don't own?

 

[Chief Stipe]

6 minutes ago, curious said:

Have we lost the edit function or is it just me?

 

I'm not sure......I'm still getting my head around the software update.

[Freda]

4 minutes ago, Freda said:

I also understand, that the then Housing Minister, Nick Smith, who was also the Minister of Conservation,  was only able to swing the sale of the portion referred to by ensuring that Ngai Tahu were in the frame first...and that housing as opposed to commercial developments were specified.  National needed housing.

Of course,  Ngai Tahu are under no such constraints, with the on-sale to Ryman Healthcare of a nice chunk of the property.

Ngai Tahu are smart operators, they'd see that lot coming a mile away.

[Freda]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

I'm not sure if this figure is for just Ballarat or for all tracks under RV's jurisdiction.  Even so RV is limiting their polytrack's to only 2 or 3.  So if it is 3 then that's $2m every 10 years just to replace the surface.  That's AUD$200,000 a year.

Add to that yearly running costs then north of NZD$300,000 per year just for the Polytrack at Riccarton is not unreasonable.

My understanding is that RV is limiting the Aw's to just two.  

[Chief Stipe]

1 minute ago, Freda said:

Ngai Tahu are smart operators, they'd see that lot coming a mile away.

LOL - Tipene O'Reagan!  Reminds me of the time when Tipene turned up to book a room at my Dad's motel.  He signed in as Tipene and Dad immediately crossed it out and put Stephen.  Gave him a lecture about how his mother was a lovely person and we didn't need this Maori shyte.  Sorry to digress.....

[curious]

7 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

I'm not sure......I'm still getting my head around the software update.

Thanks I see it there now under the 3 dot drop down.

 

[Chief Stipe]

Just now, Freda said:

My understanding is that RV is limiting the Aw's to just two.  

That was what I thought but I was covering my arse.  So that's $300,000 to put away each year!

[Freda]

18 minutes ago, curious said:

Oops.... I meant to add that they'll be lucky if that aannual estimate covers much more than the irrigation costs.

Not to mention the  difficulty of getting permission to take as much water as is needed...and Chief mentioned 28 deg temperatures here in Canterbury...we have can week after week of more than 32 deg in the summer as well as howling nor'westers..ffs...how does the water permit look then?

Edited September 10, 2020 by Freda