Riccarton All Weather Track - Q & A Forum 16 September 2020 - PLEASE READ.

[curious]

13 minutes ago, curious said:

Hard to jump on a plane these days but they could have a talk to Keeneland and Del Mar as well. I wonder if Pitty and Mills have ever ridden on one of these things?

Let alone watched the required maintenance processes.

Edited September 19, 2020 by curious

[curious]

Irrigation and water quality is also complex. This from when Del Mar had theirs, even though they gave up on it in the end:

The track has installed a reverse osmosis system on site that will provide purified water for use on the surface, meaning tap or other unpurified water that could contain contaminants that harm the Polytrack materials will be avoided.

Martin Collins, the founder of Polytrack, offered this guarantee during the special CHRB meeting in February – the track at Del Mar this summer will produce faster times than last year.

Edited September 19, 2020 by curious

[Pitman]

We were told the new Polytrack does not require irrigation by those doing Cambridge

[curious]

7 hours ago, Pitman said:

We were told the new Polytrack does not require irrigation by those doing Cambridge

You may have been told that but by whom? Those promoting the AWT idea? All I'm saying is that someone needs to do some serious homework here. I'm just reporting what I've learned from the likes of the Del Mar experience. I've already posted a report on the Pakenham situation.

"The prominent issue is the lack of moisture in the Polytrack, which is a consequence of a lack of rain and we will be addressing that as soon as possible with a likely strategy being irrigation.

Brian de Lore's article above also points out that annual rainfall is close to 50" at Cambridge and closer to 20" at Riccarton. Very different beasts. As JB points out it would be good to talk to the folk at Geelong and Toowoomba as well.

Hopefully the likes of the CJC, TA, OF and others will talk to some of these people with polytrack experience and get back to current stakeholders and prospective stakeholders in Canterbury racing with some accurate data and analysis sooner rather than later.

[curious]

5 minutes ago, curious said:

You may have been told that but by whom? Those promoting the AWT idea? All I'm saying is that someone needs to do some serious homework here. I'm just reporting what I've learned from the likes of the Del Mar experience. I've already posted a report on the Pakenham situation.

"The prominent issue is the lack of moisture in the Polytrack, which is a consequence of a lack of rain and we will be addressing that as soon as possible with a likely strategy being irrigation.

Brian de Lore's article above also points out that annual rainfall is close to 50" at Cambridge and closer to 20" at Riccarton. Very different beasts. As JB points out it would be good to talk to the folk at Geelong and Toowoomba as well.

Hopefully the likes of the CJC, TA, OF and others will talk to some of these people with polytrack experience and get back to current stakeholders and prospective stakeholders in Canterbury racing with some accurate data and analysis sooner rather than later.

There doesn't seem to be much broad support for it at this point from larger Canterbury and SI trainers such as John Parsons. Hard to know what the smaller trainers think and you don't seem to think it's worth surveying them or seeking their opinions in some practical way. I think you should, but first of all clear and concise information and analysis of the project needs to be assembled and circulated.

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by curious

[Freda]

12 hours ago, Pitman said:

Ok 

At the moment our training tracks are plough, sand, small sand, cinders, and numerous grass tracks which most days the number nine (pacework) and a galloping grass is used patched and maintained

IF AND WHEN the AWT is built all these tracks go so does therefore the daily maintenance of them, which is quite substantial.

Do you understand so far?!

We will then have an AWT galloping grass and sand Do you understand this. 

FREDA can confirm

 So a huge reduction in tracks used and maintained daily We will also have the course proper that will not be used for winter industry days which should ensure a better course proper long term. That’s what I anticipate and am looking forward to

Therefore there will be some savings on maintenance of all tracks that are going so, don’t just label the AWT to substantial increase in daily maintenance there may be even less. The big cost will be when replacement or upgrading of AWT is required that is the major question atm

Yes, that is my understanding also, from Martin's report on proceedings. 

However, he ( being an import )  is not au fait with the history of b/s and cockups that we have been served .

He is also not as aware as we locals of the funding issues - we don't have Sheikhs installing an AW gallop at Newmarket and naming it after their Guineas winner, or magnificent, privately owned stables with superb facilities. 

Nor do we have an industry, well run, that can keep facilities up to date on what is returned through betting revenue. 

And, all that notwithstanding,  the facilities we do have at Riccarton,  while very good by comparison to most here, are not as well maintained as they could or should be.

The sand is of a type that will strip fetlocks of horses vulnerable in that respect. When rain affected,  the water is supposed to percolate through to the base, and be channelled to the drains on the inner.  It doesn't,  and we get a sludge that provides no cushion, and horses will cut through to the base.   And it doesn't rain that much here,  as observed above.

The gallop grasses are rough, and unless a new strip with fresh ground is used, hard and bare.

The clay soil is very hard underneath and, unless the rain is significant,  will chop out quickly and be slippery on top.  So, no not ideal.

How will this management structure cope with looking after a surface that MUST be properly handled?  And the contract to supply and maintain the AWT, with 3 monthly visits from the team, will that still be valid if the interim maintenance isn't up to scratch?

[Shad]

Be interesting to see how many owners and trainers will support the all weather tracks.

[Chief Stipe]

9 hours ago, Pitman said:

We were told the new Polytrack does not require irrigation by those doing Cambridge

I find that hard to believe when every article I have read online says the opposite or rather says that water content of the polyfill is important in maintaining a consistent racing surface.  A "consistent racing surface" is THE goal is it not?

I've been trying to get my head around the science of the polyfill and have tried comparing it to my horticulture and turf culture university education.  The polyfill is a type of soil - soil is made up of four components - minerals, organic matter, water and air.  Water and air percentage composition is largely influenced by the first two components minerals and organic matter.  

Minerals are made up of sands, clays and silts.  Organic matter is decaying vegetation, worm and insects crap etc.  About 50% of a soil is made of solid material - 45% minerals and 5% organic matter so 50% of your average soil is made up of voids that are filled with water and air.  The % of water and air varies with one replacing the other depending on rainfall/irrigation and evaporation.  

The mix of the minerals largely determines the water holding capacity of soil.  If the soil has a high sand component then its ability to retain water is limited as it drains well.  At the other end of the spectrum are clay soils which retain water well but don't drain well - contrary to what one may intuitively think clay soils don't have a lot of water available for use - it gets tied up in the clay.  The outcome of that is a clay soil can go from being very fluid when extremely wet (muddy) to very hard when dry - a bit like unset cement vs set cement.  Just as it is very hard to grow grass on 100% sand it is hard to grow grass on 100% clay.  Fortunately there are enough soils in between that allow agriculture and horticulture to exist.  As cultivators of the land we can affect the base structure by changing the mineral composition and/or adding organic matter.  This occurs naturally e.g. the succession of plants on sand dunes - tough plants get a foothold and go through life cycles adding organic matter to the sand allowing larger plants to follow adding more organic matter and so on.

The mix of the different minerals plus the organic matter is referred to as soil structure and this structure determines the water/air characteristics of a soil.  

I better pull up here......back to the topic.....

Now if we look at the Polytrack fill we can compare its characteristics with a soil. It has the same base characteristics of soil - minerals, organic material, water and air. With two differences the organic material is replaced by synthetic material and a petroleum based wax is added.

Its mineral composition is predominantly silica sand.  So without the addition of any other material it has a very low water retention i.e. it drains well.  Mixed into this sand are synthetic fibres (bits of recycled rubber/carpet - akin to adding organic matter to a clay soil) which add structure to the sand i.e. create air and water voids.  They are the source of the "cushion" for the horses to gallop safely on.  They provide a better cushion than straight sand.  The science of soils suggests that this addition of "structure" and the creation of voids will increase the capacity of the sand to retain water as there are more voids.  You can't have the cushion without creating the voids - the weather or irrigation will influence the ratio of water to air in those voids.

Now this is where the addition of the petroleum based wax comes in.  Science suggests that this wax does two things it helps to aggregate the solids (increases structure) and alters the water retention characteristics by changing the polarity of the aggregate surfaces and repels water.  Just like when your spray silicon over your fishing reels.  This will improve drainage.

So the theory behind not needing irrigation is that field capacity/water holding potential of polytrack fill is a very narrow range - if it rains or is dry then there isn't a big difference in the amount water/air ratio.

That's the theory!  BUT it doesn't seem to work like that in practice.  For example look at the issues at Pakenham in Victoria.  Pakenham has a similar climate profile to Riccarton but not the same.  Observe what has also happened at other Polytrack venues and you will see similar issues.

Now each Polytrack will have a different composition of Polyfill relative to climatic conditions e.g. Riccarton will have a different ratio of sand, fibre and wax when compared to Cambridge, Awapuni and Pakenham.  Why?  Well the science suggests that temperature and rainfall influence the amount of/and type of wax and fibre that you add to the sand.  The manipulation of these ratio's will be to optimise the track conditions to a narrow range relative to the weather experienced.  I'm guessing in a very dry climate you will use a wax that has a greater aggregating and water retention factor to limit the potential of the fill from blowing away.  In a high temperature environment you might use a wax that has a higher melting point.  In a wet environment you might use a wax that has a higher water repelling factor.  

Now this is where I see a case for irrigation.  If you have an environment where there is a large seasonal variation (that variation could be daily, weekly, monthly or seasonal) how do you optimise the polyfill composition?  You would have to compromise with the polyfill and accept lots of variation during the year.  Or use artificial means to keep it within the optimal range e.g. irrigation and mechanical grooming.

Why does the Polyfill need replenishment and eventually replacement?  That's because the mechanics of horse's galloping on the surface, the regular mechanical grooming and the variations in climate cause the components of the polyfill to break down.  Even the sand gets finer!  The wax decays and the bits of carpet and tyres breakdown into microplastics.

I've run out of puff......

[Chief Stipe]

Difference in climate between Pakenham and Riccarton.

 

[Chief Stipe]

I just read this about Santa Anita.....will check out if this is EVERY WEEK! 

Tonight, the Santa Anita crew will add 100 tons of material to the track as part of their weekly maintenance—it gets lost to wind or water runoff or trapped in the curve of horses’ hooves and picked out back at the barn.

[curious]

1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said:

I just read this about Santa Anita.....will check out if this is EVERY WEEK!  They have a Polytrack type surface.

Tonight, the Santa Anita crew will add 100 tons of material to the track as part of their weekly maintenance—it gets lost to wind or water runoff or trapped in the curve of horses’ hooves and picked out back at the barn.

Yep. I'm picking if they put one in at Riccarton and don't irrigate, you'll have to scrape the bits of carpet off the doors of the Racecourse pub to get in for your friday night beer after a decent norwester.

[Chief Stipe]

12 minutes ago, curious said:

Yep. I'm picking if they put one in at Riccarton and don't irrigate, you'll have to scrape the bits of carpet off the doors of the Racecourse pub to get in for your friday night beer after a decent norwester.

The only way to stop the wax melting in high temperatures is to apply water to keep it cool!  

Supposedly Polytrack is the least sensitive of synthetic surfaces to moisture.  But that doesn't explain why there have been issues aka Pakenham.  I can understand under laboratory conditions where the Polyfill maintains its moisture properties but in the practical world subjected to climate and mechanical forces I can see how it would have issues.

 

[curious]

It’s key to keep the cushion moist with regular rounds from a watering truck (Santa Anita uses up to 100,000 gallons a day) and, on the flip side, to ease off watering if the skies open up. If it’s too dry, the cushion comes up in a cloud of dust and delivers an unfavorable shock to the leg. Too wet and it’s sticky, slow, straining.

[Chief Stipe]

Just now, curious said:

It’s key to keep the cushion moist with regular rounds from a watering truck (Santa Anita uses up to 100,000 gallons a day) and, on the flip side, to ease off watering if the skies open up. If it’s too dry, the cushion comes up in a cloud of dust and delivers an unfavorable shock to the leg. Too wet and it’s sticky, slow, straining.

Yes but Santa Anita ISN'T a Polytrack.  The article that I read misreports the type of surface it is dirt.

[curious]

Just now, Chief Stipe said:

Yes but Santa Anita ISN'T a Polytrack.  The article that I read misreports the type of surface it is dirt.

Yes it is dirt now.

 

[curious]

The whole thing is just not that simple and very variable by climate.

While the safety record of synthetic surfaces was strong, not all of its other claims proved true.

Horsemen have complained that they saw an increase in other non-fatal injuries. Maintenance of the tracks — billed as one of its greatest cost saving features — proved to be more complicated than thought and varied greatly by climate.

[Freda]

Yes...and I don't want to be thought negative, or backward-looking;  but it just doesn't seem to me that all the factors have been considered.

Even the graphs shown above, to me, are pretty sanitised    We can get temperatures over the summer months of 30+ and for days, weeks at a time ;  and the nor-wester on top of that would provide a real challenge to the consistency of moisture, I would think.      As well, temperatures can drop 10 deg in an hour.  That doesn't happen in a lot of other areas.

[curious]

8 hours ago, Shad said:

Be interesting to see how many owners and trainers will support the all weather tracks.

I'm keen if they drop one in 20 minutes away at Awapuni. Just need answers to serious questions about practicality and financial viability.

[mikeynz]

On 9/18/2020 at 7:57 PM, nomates said:

Some interesting points brought up in this article by southern trainers , the big one being why would they run their horses on an A/W when their horses haven't worked on it . So will that go for trainers based more locally as well . Is it going to be Riccarton horses supplying the vast majority of runners .

Even M Pitman says he is hoping some of his horses will handle it .

The sad bit is the suggestion that a lot of trainers might not stay in the game if the lower SI racing shrinks too much because of the A/W picking up too many of their dates .

I wouldn't worry about things too much,Riccarton only race twice in June and not in July at all at present in June and July 5 meetings are held at( Oamaru 2 and Washdyke 3),throw in 2 at Wingatui and 1 Ashburton all weather track or not no reason why the status quo remains,throw in some midweekers at Riccarton,it could be better for all,maybe?

One of the things harness racing has with AWT is the ability to race consistently all year round but probably have reached it max as in numbers of racedays.maybe the gallops could have some more,alot of those Riccarton meetings will probably only cater for the locals and there are probably enough horses to do that.

 

I notice Cambridge have Wednesday meetings planned every fortnight and on the other week it reverts back to grass racing  somewhere so in reality a lot of tracks will remain, probably but may not get the shit beaten out of them running low class industry meetings in winter,as for the cost of maintaining these tracks well that's another issue.

[Pitman]

8 minutes ago, mikeynz said:

I wouldn't worry about things too much,Riccarton only race twice in June and not in July at all at present in June and July 5 meetings are held at( Oamaru 2 and Washdyke 3),throw in 2 at Wingatui and 1 Ashburton all weather track or not no reason why the status quo remains,throw in some midweekers at Riccarton,it could be better for all,maybe?

One of the things harness racing has with AWT is the ability to race consistently all year round but probably have reached it max as in numbers of racedays.maybe the gallops could have some more,alot of those Riccarton meetings will probably only cater for the locals and there are probably enough horses to do that.

 

I notice Cambridge have Wednesday meetings planned every fortnight and on the other week it reverts back to grass racing  somewhere so in reality a lot of tracks will remain, probably but may not get the shit beaten out of them running low class industry meetings in winter,as for the cost of maintaining these tracks well that's another issue.

A very good summation of what is likely to happen. Why people are so uptight about this is surprising

Down south they have been told 32 meetings per season is projected, that might be too many.

[Chief Stipe]

2 minutes ago, Pitman said:

Down south they have been told 32 meetings per season is projected, that might be too many.

Based on what criteria?

[mikeynz]

There are actually 31 meetings this season in Otago and Southland,that dont include Kurow and Oamaru,they are sort of in between Canterbury and Otago so 31 meetings Dunedin South,so in reality nought much changes,if they are running standalone days and a lot basically are then maybe a few gaps could be plugged,as long as they  have the winter racing in hannon shield area it ain't that bad,will still be at Riccarton for the main meetings,one leading trainer in the south has once stated he didn't want less meeting,wanted more,simple reality got to have numbers(fields and interest,betting)and weather,all the southern meetings have done pretty well this season but could have just as easy had all bad days weather wise,only difference between a wet day at Te Rapa and Riverton is it's simply colder but the weather is what it is,cant control it.

[Invasion of Privacy]

Ask any trotting trainer how hard it is to stop their tracks blowing away in Canterbury in summer.

Also does anyone know why Tapeta wasn’t considered instead of Poly, I won’t even ask about Strathayr as that’s too obvious for NZTR

[curious]

8 hours ago, Invasion of Privacy said:

Ask any trotting trainer how hard it is to stop their tracks blowing away in Canterbury in summer.

Yeahh I watched the Matamata one blowing away a couple of months ago until they got enough water on it to hold it down and that was mid-winter. I think we took half of it home in the car.

[Chief Stipe]

2 minutes ago, curious said:

Yeahh I watched the Matamata one blowing away a couple of months ago until they got enough water on it to hold it down and that was mid-winter. I think we took half of it home in the car.

What type of AWT is Matamata?

At least Matamata paid for theirs and didn't need a handout from the taxpayer.