Riccarton All Weather Track - Q & A Forum 16 September 2020 - PLEASE READ.

[mikeynz]

4 hours ago, curious said:

Yeahh I watched the Matamata one blowing away a couple of months ago until they got enough water on it to hold it down and that was mid-winter. I think we took half of it home in the car.

What happens to the synthetic track if you have large amount of rain on it,trotting tracks are just slushy,and synthetic are?

[mikeynz]

Ascot Park friday,8 races,mostly southern horses ,got a few cantabs,field size exactly same as what harness has been doing,this day use to be at Gore,why move it to invers,not everybody likes Ascot.but anyway its 3 weeks since Wingatui and after friday 3 more weeks,seems a big gap in the calandar

[Dark Beau]

On 21/09/2020 at 10:58 PM, Invasion of Privacy said:

Ask any trotting trainer how hard it is to stop their tracks blowing away in Canterbury in summer.

Also does anyone know why Tapeta wasn’t considered instead of Poly, I won’t even ask about Strathayr as that’s too obvious for NZTR

I was told that it was because the Poly people were based in Australia and the Tapeta weren’t!

 

[Freda]

27 minutes ago, Dark Beau said:

I was told that it was because the Poly people were based in Australia and the Tapeta weren’t!

 

Sounds reasonable.

[curious]

1 hour ago, Freda said:

Sounds reasonable.

I've worked for Michael and am sure he would have been happy to discuss the Tapeta option for here. Hopefully that was done in the due diligence on this.

Edited September 27, 2020 by curious

[Pitman]

Overall Outlook On All Weather Racing

All Weather racing continues to thrive in the UK. We can only see more all weather courses being added over the next few years. Yes, tracks like Southwell and Wolverhampton may have some low-quality racing but overall with the success of the All Weather Championships and some top quality racing at Lingfield and Newcastle you have to say that all weather racing will only continue to grow.

It might not be to everyone’s tastes, but we will continue to see one or two all weather meetings daily and especially during the winter months. In terms of trading, sometimes you can get burnt out with so much racing – but isn’t it good to have a choice? You don’t have to trade every meeting; but having the option of all weather racing all year round is always nice to have.

[curious]

On the Tapeta topic from the same article:

Polytrack is the most popular choice of surfaces for all weather tracks in the UK. Most trainers prefer Polytrack over everything else because it is the fairest surface for horses to race on. It’s a fast surface, with little jar and basically no kickback. Horses can enjoy their racing and because it quickly regains it’s shape after being racing on that means there’s less stress on tendons.

Tapeta is very similar to Polytrack. There’s almost no kickback and they say that it’s more versatile than Polytrack. It’s a very fair surface to race, and would be quite similar to Good on a turf track – as similar as all weather could be anyway!

[Pitman]

2 minutes ago, curious said:

On the Tapeta topic from the same article:

Polytrack is the most popular choice of surfaces for all weather tracks in the UK. Most trainers prefer Polytrack over everything else because it is the fairest surface for horses to race on. It’s a fast surface, with little jar and basically no kickback. Horses can enjoy their racing and because it quickly regains it’s shape after being racing on that means there’s less stress on tendons.

Tapeta is very similar to Polytrack. There’s almost no kickback and they say that it’s more versatile than Polytrack. It’s a very fair surface to race, and would be quite similar to Good on a turf track – as similar as all weather could be anyway!

That's interesting, completely different to what the experts on here are saying!!

The same experts that have not ever seen a polytrack

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Pitman said:

The same experts that have not ever seen a polytrack

"Seeing" one doesn't add to one's expertise if you don't ask the right questions and have done the research.  Which seems to be what our illustrious leaders didnt do.

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Pitman said:

Overall Outlook On All Weather Racing

All Weather racing continues to thrive in the UK. We can only see more all weather courses being added over the next few years. Yes, tracks like Southwell and Wolverhampton may have some low-quality racing but overall with the success of the All Weather Championships and some top quality racing at Lingfield and Newcastle you have to say that all weather racing will only continue to grow.

It might not be to everyone’s tastes, but we will continue to see one or two all weather meetings daily and especially during the winter months. In terms of trading, sometimes you can get burnt out with so much racing – but isn’t it good to have a choice? You don’t have to trade every meeting; but having the option of all weather racing all year round is always nice to have.

Why has Racing Victoria said no more than two?  Probably because those who pay the revenue dont like to punt on them.  Oh and the higher maintenance costs.

[Chief Stipe]

The problem with this debate is it becomes binary or tribal.  Like most things at the moment.

Rational well researched debate looking at the complete range of variables goes out the window.

Where are the numbers, the revenue projections, the maintenance costs?  Seems to be a punt in the dark to me.

Plus decisions made by the same group that hasn't got one right in the last 20 years.

[curious]

1 hour ago, Pitman said:

That's interesting, completely different to what the experts on here are saying!!

The same experts that have not ever seen a polytrack

I've seen and ridden on both. I'd be keen on either here if they were financially justifiable. Technology has no doubt improved but I'm skeptical about the kick back claims. That's not what is being reported from Oz. It is critical that the surface is appropriately adjusted and maintained for the climatic conditions of the installation.

[Huey]

2 hours ago, curious said:

I've seen and ridden on both. I'd be keen on either here if they were financially justifiable. Technology has no doubt improved but I'm skeptical about the kick back claims. That's not what is being reported from Oz. It is critical that the surface is appropriately adjusted and maintained for the climatic conditions of the installation.

Same here, I don't like them as a spectacle for racing but if it can be proven they work , will encouraging more punting , sustainable costs ,racing not at the expense of other venues(which appears to be already happening) better racing etc then I have nothing against them. 

But where apart from a couple of larger trainers espousing their virtues can one find such info in relation to NZ? 

[Huey]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

"Seeing" one doesn't add to one's expertise if you don't ask the right questions and have done the research.  Which seems to be what our illustrious leaders didnt do.

Exactly, I've watched a few houses being built doesn't make me a builder or an expert.

[curious]

6 hours ago, Huey said:

Same here, I don't like them as a spectacle for racing but if it can be proven they work , will encouraging more punting , sustainable costs ,racing not at the expense of other venues(which appears to be already happening) better racing etc then I have nothing against them. 

But where apart from a couple of larger trainers espousing their virtues can one find such info in relation to NZ? 

Agree but where the hell is the business case? Surely if a sound one were put in front of stakeholders, most would support them?

[Huey]

1 hour ago, curious said:

Agree but where the hell is the business case? Surely if a sound one were put in front of stakeholders, most would support them?

Yes it would be good to see, impossible to support without it.

[Freda]

Agree with the above comments;  I haven't heard any 'business case' to justify costs, as far as Riccarton is concerned it seems the biggest driver for support from trainers is the provision of a top-class training surface.

That, and less travel.

While a long, cold trip home from Oamaru in the winter is not particularly enjoyable - and becomes less so when the transport bill arrives- that, by itself, can't justify the expenses incurred. 

But most either haven't considered cost or don't care.

One said to me ' they don't give a sh## if I go broke, why should I care if they do?  I'll take it while I've got the opportunity. '  

[Pitman]

pam

From my point of view you are wrong

If you went to the presentation you would have been told

They intend running 12 meetings during the months of May to September on the AWT, all mid week industry days. The consistent surface should throw up more consistent racing and results which is what punters, owners and trainers want. At least I do.

The trials will be run on a very regular basis, fortnightly? at considerable savings (travel) to all participants except those based at Rangiora, which aren't many

The all up costs includes the development of a 24m wide grass galloping track, which will also be beneficial long term.

The $10.5million is for no other purpose than to build an AWT, it is not available for anything else. Figures being spoken about means the CJC will need to put in close to $4m, how this is done is the clubs business and NZTR.

There will be ongoing costs and maintenance however some of this will be covered by getting rid of the plough, sand, cinders, grass pace work and galloping tracks. When it is all finished we will have an AWT, new grass track and sand pace work track plus obviously the course proper which should be improved by fewer meetings on there May to September

By the way please confirm to people that it was not I who made the "don't give a sh## statement".

Having seen and had horses work, gallop on Polytrack I am a strong supporter of same, I will go as far to say if this does not happen then SI racing will be in trouble, it needs this.

[Chief Stipe]

15 minutes ago, Pitman said:

The consistent surface should throw up more consistent racing and results which is what punters, owners and trainers want.

Punters DON'T like punting on them in our largest market - Australia.  Hence the cost/revenue ratio is not worth the effort of installing more!  At the end of the day (eventually) the AWT will be a training asset nothing more.  Which raises the question - WHY build it so big?  

If punters, trainers and owners want more consistent racing/results what is going to be done to fix the Riccarton Turf track?

You are dreaming if you are going to get enough EXTRA revenue from the AWT to fund development on the course proper.  But I guess the genius strategists are relying on the acquisition of other tracks capital assets to fix that.  Good luck with that!

20 minutes ago, Pitman said:

The $10.5million is for no other purpose than to build an AWT, it is not available for anything else. Figures being spoken about means the CJC will need to put in close to $4m, how this is done is the clubs business and NZTR.

Why is it so secret squirrel?  Hardly any commercial sensitivity is there?  Or don't they want others with racing assets how much is going to be plundered from elsewhere?

22 minutes ago, Pitman said:

There will be ongoing costs and maintenance however some of this will be covered by getting rid of the plough, sand, cinders, grass pace work and galloping tracks. When it is all finished we will have an AWT, new grass track and sand pace work track plus obviously the course proper which should be improved by fewer meetings on there May to September

WHAT ABOUT THE MAIN TURF TRACK RENOVATION?  Or is that going too?

Pitty you have bought hook line and sinker the BS that getting rid of "the plough, sand, cinders, grass pace work and galloping tracks" will cover the AWT maintenance.  Are you saying that ALL WORK will be done on the AWT?  Good luck with keeping your horses sound - or are you going to work them more at home?  FFS go back and have a look at Godsen's training regimes at Newmarket.

26 minutes ago, Pitman said:

The all up costs includes the development of a 24m wide grass galloping track, which will also be beneficial long term.

This is news.  Post the plans?  The financials.  Show some transparency.  Give assurance to investors to invest.  Centres overseas have done it when undertaking big developments why can't Riccarton?  

Pitty as an industry leader, key trainer in Canterbury and an outspoken supporter of the new development YOU need to get across the detail and make sure it is published!

Finally I'll ask again - WHAT IS GOING TO BE DONE TO REMEDIATE THE MAIN TURF TRACK?  You know the one that is too hard when it's hot and fine and too muddy when it is wet?  DON'T roll out the BS that the new AWT will give it a "rest" to recover because from what I can see given the increase in racedays it will still need to be used for the same amount of time.  Also "giving it a rest" isn't going to work as God won't fix it.

[curious]

1 hour ago, Pitman said:

The all up costs includes the development of a 24m wide grass galloping track, which will also be beneficial long term.

Why would they build a brand new full width grass track rather than fix the existing one?

1 hour ago, Pitman said:

The $10.5million is for no other purpose than to build an AWT, it is not available for anything else. Figures being spoken about means the CJC will need to put in close to $4m, how this is done is the clubs business and NZTR.

I'm not clear what NZTR has to do with it other than supporting the allocation of race (and trial) dates? As far as the CJC is concerned, how come detailed plans have not been circulated to members? After all they could veto the project and expenditure at a GM.

[Chief Stipe]

1 minute ago, curious said:

I'm not clear what NZTR has to do with it other than supporting the allocation of race (and trial) dates?

Haven't they "underwritten" some of the extra costs?  Didn't they do this for Cambridge?

[curious]

2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Haven't they "underwritten" some of the extra costs?  Didn't they do this for Cambridge?

I don't know. Where did you see that?

I thought they didn't have any money or assets and are limited by that in putting on extra races or racedays from what I heard yesterday.

 

Edited September 28, 2020 by curious

[Chief Stipe]

Just now, curious said:

I don't know. Where did you see that?

 

I'm sure I posted the detail somewhere here.  I just can't remember which track it was for.  I'll do some searching.....

[Chief Stipe]

It was Cambridge Jockey Club that NZTR underwrote.  I imagine that they will be doing the same for Awapuni and Canterbury.  With Awapuni they are already in the "swamp" hole for quite a bit so throwing a bit more at it will probably be on the cards.

In the last publish NZTR Annual Report 2018-2019 there was a payment under "Infrastructure" to Cambridge Jockey Club of $407k for "Synthetic Track Costs."

There was another sum under "Special Projects" - Cambridge synthetic track (offset by Enhancement Funds) $414,480.  Not sure if that is the same as above.

I've always said if the costs/revenue benefits hold up from a financial case perspective then Cambridge Jockey Club should have been able to do it all on their own.  So in my opinion you must conclude that the financials are dodgy.  NZTR should not be acting as a bank - history is littered with poor decisions!

Then there was this in the annual report:

 

 

[Freda]

2 hours ago, Pitman said:

pam

From my point of view you are wrong

If you went to the presentation you would have been told

They intend running 12 meetings during the months of May to September on the AWT, all mid week industry days. The consistent surface should throw up more consistent racing and results which is what punters, owners and trainers want. At least I do.

The trials will be run on a very regular basis, fortnightly? at considerable savings (travel) to all participants except those based at Rangiora, which aren't many

The all up costs includes the development of a 24m wide grass galloping track, which will also be beneficial long term.

The $10.5million is for no other purpose than to build an AWT, it is not available for anything else. Figures being spoken about means the CJC will need to put in close to $4m, how this is done is the clubs business and NZTR.

There will be ongoing costs and maintenance however some of this will be covered by getting rid of the plough, sand, cinders, grass pace work and galloping tracks. When it is all finished we will have an AWT, new grass track and sand pace work track plus obviously the course proper which should be improved by fewer meetings on there May to September

By the way please confirm to people that it was not I who made the "don't give a sh## statement".

Having seen and had horses work, gallop on Polytrack I am a strong supporter of same, I will go as far to say if this does not happen then SI racing will be in trouble, it needs this.

I can certainly confirm it wasn't you who made that comment.

As for the rest of your post..?

You've missed the point completely.

None of the factors about which you speak can be shown to increase punters' losses - which is the only measurement of revenue.   And, without a significant increase in betting revenue, we are still sliding down the slope to oblivion.