Riccarton All Weather Track - Q & A Forum 16 September 2020 - PLEASE READ.

[Pitman]

3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Pitty you have bought hook line and sinker the BS that getting rid of "the plough, sand, cinders, grass pace work and galloping tracks" will cover the AWT maintenance

Don't let the truth get in the way not once have I said will cover the AWT maintenance READ AND COMPREHEND "some of this"!!!!!!!!

We have been told at Pakenham they punt $9million so some people must have confidence to have a bet

Riccarton is the best firm track in NZ as for the 'TOO MUDDY" comment that's why they are building an AWT and running 12 race meetings May to September that's the winter, can you not understand that. You're intelligent enough to understand that, surely

[curious]

22 minutes ago, Pitman said:

Don't let the truth get in the way not once have I said will cover the AWT maintenance READ AND COMPREHEND "some of this"!!!!!!!!

We have been told at Pakenham they punt $9million so some people must have confidence to have a bet

Riccarton is the best firm track in NZ as for the 'TOO MUDDY" comment that's why they are building an AWT and running 12 race meetings May to September that's the winter, can you not understand that. You're intelligent enough to understand that, surely

Where's the analysis or business case and analysis to support that argument? Please post itt here.

[Chief Stipe]

59 minutes ago, Pitman said:

We have been told at Pakenham they punt $9million so some people must have confidence to have a bet

On the 12 meetings that are Polytrack?  Doesn't seem much.  Are you sure you are counting the right figures?

They "earnt" $9m in wagering and gaming revenue TOTAL across both the turf and polytrack.

59 minutes ago, Pitman said:

Riccarton is the best firm track in NZ as for the 'TOO MUDDY" comment that's why they are building an AWT and running 12 race meetings May to September that's the winter, can you not understand that.

What happens when they get the irrigation wrong in the other months?

The fact is the soil structure of the main track is stuffed.  When is it going to be fixed?  

"Oh we are not going to race on it during the winter that'll fix it" approach just doesn't cut it.

[Chief Stipe]

From what I can see Pakenham relies heavily on large training numbers to stay in the black.

[curious]

I don't see any increase in revenue from the AWT wrt to the race meetings. Could be worse due to punter suspicion. So, revenue will have to come from owners and trainers paying more won't it? But again, where is the analysis on this? Can someone post it please? Pitty?

Edited September 29, 2020 by curious

[curious]

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Edited September 29, 2020 by curious

[nomates]

All i want to see is the figures that show that these tracks will produce the huge financial upturn for NZ racing that is required to secure the future . 

Why else would the industry (clubs) invest upwards of $20million . A large proportion borrowed . And NZTR underwrite the investment . Surely nobody would do these things without a sound fiscal position that shows that they will be a complete winner for the industry . 

The last time someone gambled with industry funds , the glitzy TAB site , we were all but bankrupted .

No Govt will bail us out again .

Nothing else matters , it's all about the money .

So please show me the figures , someone , anyone .

[Joe Bloggs]

2 minutes ago, nomates said:

All i want to see is the figures that show that these tracks will produce the huge financial upturn for NZ racing that is required to secure the future . 

Why else would the industry (clubs) invest upwards of $20million . A large proportion borrowed . And NZTR underwrite the investment . Surely nobody would do these things without a sound fiscal position that shows that they will be a complete winner for the industry . 

The last time someone gambled with industry funds , the glitzy TAB site , we were all but bankrupted .

No Govt will bail us out again .

Nothing else matters , it's all about the money .

So please show me the figures , someone , anyone .

By the time you find out nomates, Saundry will be gone, the industry broke again, and industry unemployment sky high, all it took was a phone call to the club and trainers in Oz that uprooted their track and punted it to the shithouse.....but that takes common sense, and Mills and his glove puppet are leading the race to the cliff........Geelong surface was a joke for years, the size of the fields there will tell you that, mugs will bet on anything, plus, you offer 22k for a maiden purse you'll get the needy and the greedy, and R58 horses will take whatever's offered to them.......I'm done with this, you can't argue with some, you can with most and get a consensus in the wash up.......what worries me though, is the mentality, why wouldn't you call people that admitted they made a mistake and corrected it? to find out why they did what they did?

[Chief Stipe]

Isn't it a bit like the guy who wins Lotto?  $10m suddenly in the bank account.  What does he do?  Buys some "assets."  A brand new $2m boat and mooring.  A brand new V8 motorcar.  $3m house.  $1m "bach".  A few racehorses.  Leaves the $60k a year job.

The first two years after purchase are all fun.  No repairs on the boat - didn't even need any maintenance.  Paid for all fuel, rates, house maintenance and horse fees out of the capital that he has left.  Easy peasy - didn't really take much notice.

The boat needs taking out of the water for its bi-annual maintenance - anti-fouling, prop-speed.  A few items need replacing - the parties were a bit hard on wear and tear.  He finds out that every item on the boat has a minimum cost of $5k to repair or replace.  Works out that you need to budget about 5-10% of the capital cost each year to keep it well maintained.  He finds a few things wrong with the house and so needs to do some repairs.  The rates have gone up on the bach because land values have gone through the roof (some with the family home).

The racehorse bills are starting to flood in now that they are being educated and trained.  Still hasn't made it to the races with any of them.

His capital is diminishing rapidly and he starts to notice how much it costs to fill the boat with fuel and how many miles to gallon he gets out of the V8.  Does a quick on the back of an envelope what his "operating costs" are per year and works out that he needs $250k a year in revenue to keep things going.  The "assets" aren't actually assets but liabilities now.  

Isn't the best definition of an asset the one where it makes a return on capital invested?  The house and bach have increased in value by about the same amount as the boat, car and horses have depreciated.  He starts borrowing on the house and bach to keep his lifestyle going.

Now an All Weather Track.....

An AWT doesn't actually improve the value of the land it sits on so it isn't like the house and bach.  I mean who wants to buy a used AWT?  It is only an asset if it returns enough profit to keep up the operational costs, maintenance and return on capital.  Surely someone has done those numbers?

That $10m "gift" is a bit like winning Lotto isn't it?

[Freda]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Isn't it a bit like the guy who wins Lotto?  $10m suddenly in the bank account.  What does he do?  Buys some "assets."  A brand new $2m boat and mooring.  A brand new V8 motorcar.  $3m house.  $1m "bach".  A few racehorses.  Leaves the $60k a year job.

The first two years after purchase are all fun.  No repairs on the boat - didn't even need any maintenance.  Paid for all fuel, rates, house maintenance and horse fees out of the capital that he has left.  Easy peasy - didn't really take much notice.

The boat needs taking out of the water for its bi-annual maintenance - anti-fouling, prop-speed.  A few items need replacing - the parties were a bit hard on wear and tear.  He finds out that every item on the boat has a minimum cost of $5k to repair or replace.  Works out that you need to budget about 5-10% of the capital cost each year to keep it well maintained.  He finds a few things wrong with the house and so needs to do some repairs.  The rates have gone up on the bach because land values have gone through the roof (some with the family home).

The racehorse bills are starting to flood in now that they are being educated and trained.  Still hasn't made it to the races with any of them.

His capital is diminishing rapidly and he starts to notice how much it costs to fill the boat with fuel and how many miles to gallon he gets out of the V8.  Does a quick on the back of an envelope what his "operating costs" are per year and works out that he needs $250k a year in revenue to keep things going.  The "assets" aren't actually assets but liabilities now.  

Isn't the best definition of an asset the one where it makes a return on capital invested?  The house and bach have increased in value by about the same amount as the boat, car and horses have depreciated.  He starts borrowing on the house and bach to keep his lifestyle going.

Now an All Weather Track.....

An AWT doesn't actually improve the value of the land it sits on so it isn't like the house and bach.  I mean who wants to buy a used AWT?  It is only an asset if it returns enough profit to keep up the operational costs, maintenance and return on capital.  Surely someone has done those numbers?

That $10m "gift" is a bit like winning Lotto isn't it?

Well said 

[Chief Stipe]

32 minutes ago, Freda said:

Well said 

Common sense really.  But I'm just a negative bastard.  I'm not really!

[Freda]

'It is only an asset if it returns enough profit to keep up the operational costs, maintenance and return on capital.  Surely someone has done those numbers?'

 

Seems not.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Freda

[Chief Stipe]

34 minutes ago, Freda said:

'It is only an asset if it returns enough profit to keep up the operational costs, maintenance and return on capital.  Surely someone has done those numbers?'

 

Seems not.

Especially with all its advantages compared to other clubs the CJC has run at a loss for the last two seasons.

[Freda]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Especially with all its advantages compared to other clubs the CJC has run at a loss for the last two seasons.

That would be attributed to training/ stabling operations. 

[Chief Stipe]

6 minutes ago, Freda said:

That would be attributed to training/ stabling operations. 

??? Are you saying they are not covering costs in providing these services?  How will an AWT improve that situation unless they get more trainers/horses and charge more?  Considering costs will probably increase.

[Huey]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

??? Are you saying they are not covering costs in providing these services?  How will an AWT improve that situation unless they get more trainers/horses and charge more?  Considering costs will probably increase.

You'll probably find that they think, trainers owners etc will up and go from other venues and have their horses trained/in work at the new facility. A bit like what they were assuming was going to happen with the venue plan - utter nonsense!

[curious]

5 hours ago, Freda said:

'It is only an asset if it returns enough profit to keep up the operational costs, maintenance and return on capital.  Surely someone has done those numbers?'

 

Seems not.

Nope.

[Freda]

I was asked a question earlier. 

What about the jumpers?

  My own opinion is that jumping in the south is kaput [ sadly ]. But, given poor betting on those events, and the reality that - under the venue plan - Oamaru, Timaru and Riverton are to be 'dispensed with ' once the AWT is operational, there will be precious few opportunities for not just jumpers but for the genuine, winter galloper.

It is hard to make a case for jumping events at Dunedin only, when Riccarton will be [ presumably ] running the majority of winter meetings on the AW.

Or will there be a turf/AW day where jumpers go round on the turf and the rest on the AW ? possible, but I can't really see that happening, numbers wouldn't justify that at all.

[curious]

8 minutes ago, Freda said:

I was asked a question earlier. 

What about the jumpers?

  My own opinion is that jumping in the south is kaput [ sadly ]. But, given poor betting on those events, and the reality that - under the venue plan - Oamaru, Timaru and Riverton are to be 'dispensed with ' once the AWT is operational, there will be precious few opportunities for not just jumpers but for the genuine, winter galloper.

It is hard to make a case for jumping events at Dunedin only, when Riccarton will be [ presumably ] running the majority of winter meetings on the AW.

Or will there be a turf/AW day where jumpers go round on the turf and the rest on the AW ? possible, but I can't really see that happening, numbers wouldn't justify that at all.

Can they not run jumping events on the AWT?

[Joe Bloggs]

1 hour ago, curious said:

Can they not run jumping events on the AWT?

They do in Europe, but NZ being a market and industry leader may choose not to, maybe they should have done that at Toowoomba, it might have saved it!...imagine, jumpers in QLD, how novel.

[Freda]

10 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

They do in Europe, but NZ being a market and industry leader may choose not to, maybe they should have done that at Toowoomba, it might have saved it!...imagine, jumpers in QLD, how novel.

It was tried,  the big names brought their horses, Henderson,  Pipe,  but it was a failure and wasn't persevered with.

Some will run bumpers on the Aw but no racing jumping.

Schooling may take place however.

[Joe Bloggs]

They still run on the AWT in France, so that's interesting re UK, once the attraction wears off in NZ and the tracks start to crumble like Geelong and other places, they might need to try Jumps on AWT Freda, they'll be scratching for revenue so a novelty act might do the trick......for a while.

[Huey]

4 hours ago, Freda said:

I was asked a question earlier. 

What about the jumpers?

  My own opinion is that jumping in the south is kaput [ sadly ]. But, given poor betting on those events, and the reality that - under the venue plan - Oamaru, Timaru and Riverton are to be 'dispensed with ' once the AWT is operational, there will be precious few opportunities for not just jumpers but for the genuine, winter galloper.

It is hard to make a case for jumping events at Dunedin only, when Riccarton will be [ presumably ] running the majority of winter meetings on the AW.

Or will there be a turf/AW day where jumpers go round on the turf and the rest on the AW ? possible, but I can't really see that happening, numbers wouldn't justify that at all.

I wouldn't have thought it would be a good look on the AWT surely go a bit too quick for the jumps, a bit like Hastings a few weeks ago.

Maybe beach volleyball might be a goer?

[Freda]

10 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said:

They still run on the AWT in France, so that's interesting re UK, once the attraction wears off in NZ and the tracks start to crumble like Geelong and other places, they might need to try Jumps on AWT Freda, they'll be scratching for revenue so a novelty act might do the trick......for a while.

Yes, I read about AWT jumps racing in France somewhere, but can't find any reference to it at all at the moment.

The fatalities [ 13 ] and other injuries incurred in the first seven weeks of starting jump racing on AWT's in the UK caused the cancellation of the concept, and although it could be argued that technology and therefore the surfaces have improved since, there is no desire to revisit that.

 

[Freda]

As an aside, I note that Belmont, in Perth, is considering installing a Strathayr inside their main turf course.