Te Akau's Poppy seed problem

[Chief Stipe]

9 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Does the earlier comment ''pre race testing' resonate Chief? The only first world????? racing jurisdiction that doesn't pre-race, or mostly doesn't.....hang their bloody heads in shame.......what's the reason for that?....too expensive? no money in the bank? either, either. I'm not singling out Te Akau, but IF there was pre-race testing it would cut out the innuendo and supposition........you'd think.

Perhaps but which jurisdiction pre-tests every race?  

[Joe Bloggs]

2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Perhaps but which jurisdiction pre-tests every race?  

HK for one, NSW and QLD metro, and a lot of other states and boundaries Chief, in NZ surely you must pre-race all black type races for obvious reasons.....if this horse in question was pre-raced it would never have happened.......withdrawn yes, but it now loses the race and the stink that goes with it......

[Gammalite]

17 minutes ago, jess said:

I do not begrudge Te Akau their success.  However  I find myself pondering the position if a sport/industry has a player in the game who is considered "too big to fail".  What then?

Well that's an easy answer, you have Te Akau , AllStars, Waller Inc, Weir, Godolphin 

Huge racing groups, outstanding results, Horses everywhere, Lots of staff , entertainment for everyone. !!

BUT WAIT , they can fail , IF the Charge is serious enough . Goodbye Mr WEIR.

PLENTY of small things go on and are dealt with in these organisations .SURELY no-one wants them to fail ??

Just investigate and sort it out like they did with Wallers, Purdons , etc (small players can appeal decisions too)

[Joe Bloggs]

Ahh, Gamma, there are a lot of protected souls in OZ, Weir only went as the Feds were involved and criminal charges, but there is so much happening in the land of Oz, not all good.......just look at the thriving Harvey Norman sale, sorry I mean Magic Gaziilions.......#followthemoney

[Chief Stipe]

7 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

HK for one, NSW and QLD metro, and a lot of other states and boundaries Chief

So only one jurisdiction?  Hong Kong which operates a "closed system."

8 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

in NZ surely you must pre-race all black type races for obvious reasons.....if this horse in question was pre-raced it would never have happened.......withdrawn yes, but it now loses the race and the stink that goes with it......

I assume you mean "pre-race test" - at what stage do you "pre-race test" before a race?  One hour, one day, two days, three days, a week?  It takes time to process the tests particularly to a degree that would be evidential. 

The "event" that caused the positive in this latest case may have occurred any time after the "pre-race test".  

[Chief Stipe]

9 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Just investigate and sort it out like they did with Wallers, Purdons , etc (small players can appeal decisions too)

That's what worries me with the new "Super RIU" being formed.  The Police and the Judiciary will be in the same tent.  That will may lead to the only way to get justice is to go through the Court system.  That will favour the big stables and hurt the small ones.

[Joe Bloggs]

Tony Fung, huge buyer here, now buying in partnership with Phoenix, and we all know the accusations against Phoenix. Several leading International thoroughbred identities have distanced themselves from Phoenix, however our esteemed industry leaders have welcomed them with open arms......  their credibility is now on the watch list.

France has banned Phoenix, plaudits to the French!!!

[Joe Bloggs]

5 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

So only one jurisdiction?  Hong Kong which operates a "closed system."

I assume you mean "pre-race test" - at what stage do you "pre-race test" before a race?  One hour, one day, two days, three days, a week?  It takes time to process the tests particularly to a degree that would be evidential. 

The "event" that caused the positive in this latest case may have occurred any time after the "pre-race test".  

Chief, I can't talk for NZ as I know its a racing backwater, here we must be on course 3hours before the off if you're in a gr race....that's when the pre race test is done, blood and urine.......they have the capabilities to detect countless drugs in that preceding 3 hour time frame, other races 2 hours and provincials an hour and a half.....QLD until recently were guilty of lax or no existent procedures also, they have lifted their game to come into line with other states. NZ will continue to be a backwater with the highest salaried backwater executives who oversee the entire shambles. Shamefully as NZ was once up there with the best.....

[Gammalite]

4 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Ahh, Gamma, there are a lot of protected souls in OZ, Weir only went as the Feds were involved and criminal charges, but there is so much happening in the land of Oz, not all good.......just look at the thriving Harvey Norman sale, sorry I mean Magic Gaziilions.......#followthemoney

The disqualified lists are Long and Extensive too. So you will be OUT if Charges serious enough. 

Yeah that WEIR thing was truly awful for the racing Industry.

BOWMAN seemed protected on the track, near killed a jockey (did kill the horse) at Rosehill in winter. Got 6 weeks. I'd i've given him 2 years , ...... little bit protected perhaps.

Everyone looking for an Edge, Waller got off, after investigations, so many horses ! , so much can go 'Wrong"  seems impossible he could keep 'Tabs' on it all. 

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Yep, how Waller escaped is beyond me, in fact it's beyond most........

[Chief Stipe]

16 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

here we must be on course 3hours before the off if you're in a gr race....that's when the pre race test is done, blood and urine.......they have the capabilities to detect countless drugs in that preceding 3 hour time frame, other races 2 hours and provincials an hour and a half...

By "here" do you mean Queensland?  If so how come it didn't catch the Croc? How many horse's have been scratched due to "pre-race test" irregularity?  Detect "countless drugs" - which ones do you count? You can't test them all.  Some drugs if prescribed by a Vet for therapeutic reasons are OK.  So not only will the tests for a predefined list of drugs need to be processed they may also need to be compared against each stables vet list.

What about cross contamination and quality control errors?  Who calibrates the machines?  Who operates them?  NZ cannot afford a Gold Standard "pre-race testing" regime.  Sure take bloods BEFORE a race of all horses in Black Type races  because some performance enhancing drugs have short half lives i.e. by the time a race is run and a swab has been taken levels may have dropped below threshold.  TCO a case in point.

There is a limit to how far you should take "pre-race testing."  The eventual endpoint is a closed system (horses locked in security guarded stables and every movement recorded and measured) like Hong Kong with an expensive lab processing tests to an evidential level.  Be careful what you wish for.  If you have a spare 10 mins check out this video.  The question that Mullis poses at the beginning is well worth posing for racing.

 

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Chief, I hate running second to a cheat, it happened to me many times, back in the day, when EPO was the go to business. I remember the lockdown 24 hours before post time up in SING back in the early 80's.......it actually worked, mostly, save for the corrupt trainers that slung the security guards to turn the other way and lose a few minutes of security tape.....they lockdown in Japan you know, and the jocks too.....it's called transparency, that why they get K100000 people on course.

Pre race testing is needed and wanted by most here, some of QLD's leading trainers stormed the Bastille to demand QRIC lift their game, it was a joke, they have lifted their game.

The Croc, well there are many stories connected with that, I remember that day well, and the traffic hold up on the M1.......and the little detour the horse float took.....the stipes give some dispensation to horses that have suffered duress or are distressed, however, the simple excuse from NZ was ''we are broke'.......IMO of course but by gee there are so many wanting stepped up testing and security, milk shaking is now almost rubbed out entirely, and that came about due to the flying squads that staked out likely miscreants, and boy didn't they land some prizes.......Smerdon and his gang were done, one escaped as he claimed he was too pissed, a leading trainer that couldn't remember what he was doing the day before the Melbourne Cup as he was too pissed.....anyway......that's my take FWIW.

[Huey]

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

Well that's an easy answer, you have Te Akau , AllStars, Waller Inc, Weir, Godolphin 

Huge racing groups, outstanding results, Horses everywhere, Lots of staff , entertainment for everyone. !!

BUT WAIT , they can fail , IF the Charge is serious enough . Goodbye Mr WEIR.

PLENTY of small things go on and are dealt with in these organisations .SURELY no-one wants them to fail ??

Just investigate and sort it out like they did with Wallers, Purdons , etc (small players can appeal decisions too)

If they are found to have cheated , i think everyone will want them to fail.

[Chief Stipe]

40 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Pre race testing is needed and wanted by most here, some of QLD's leading trainers stormed the Bastille to demand QRIC lift their game, it was a joke, they have lifted their game.

 

Pre-race testing is limited in its application.  As I said it opens up all sorts of problematic issues and makes things more complex.  Be careful what you wish for.

[Chief Stipe]

15 minutes ago, Huey said:

If they are found to have cheated , i think everyone will want them to fail.

That would be an exaggeration!  

[Gammalite]

9 minutes ago, Huey said:

If they are found to have cheated , i think everyone will want them to fail.

I've got to say that like the Australian Cricket Team (with convicted , penalised cheats, some now back BTW)

these large groups/organisations  are unfortunately going to have Bad Eggs amongst them , who do something wrong. You have to Weed them out. .....

A good thing if like Te Akau in the news , that something is exposed.!!! IMO shows they are trying to do Weeding.

The good "DOCTOR" at Essendon a fine example as well. But collapse the whole organisation ??? nah.

You have to 'weed out" the bad eggs , pay a fine or penalty, and keep on leading your field.

e.g   Waller Empire not gunna collapse because 'Moron" staff member gave a horse Ice. (2016 event) 

[Chief Stipe]

44 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

The Croc, well there are many stories connected with that, I remember that day well, and the traffic hold up on the M1.......and the little detour the horse float took.....the stipes give some dispensation to horses that have suffered duress or are distressed, however, the simple excuse from NZ was ''we are broke'.......IMO of course but by gee there are so many wanting stepped up testing and security, milk shaking is now almost rubbed out entirely, and that came about due to the flying squads that staked out likely miscreants, and boy didn't they land some prizes.......Smerdon and his gang were done, one escaped as he claimed he was too pissed, a leading trainer that couldn't remember what he was doing the day before the Melbourne Cup as he was too pissed.....anyway......that's my take FWIW.

But that is the process working.  As far as I'm concerned pre-race testing as you describe it with the scratching of horses pre-race would not add any more value except a lot more cost, evidential issues and the potential for injustice.  You would be putting a testing regime unnecessarily under pressure to achieve nothing more than what you achieve through the swabbing process.  

[Huey]

1 minute ago, Gammalite said:

I've got to say that like the Australian Cricket Team (with convicted , penalised cheats, some now back BTW)

these large groups/organisations  are unfortunately going to have Bad Eggs amongst them , who do something wrong. You have to Weed them out. .....

A good thing if like Te Akau in the news , that something is exposed.!!! IMO shows they are trying to do Weeding.

The good "DOCTOR" at Essendon a fine example as well. But collapse the whole organisation ??? nah.

You have to 'weed out" the bad eggs , pay a fine or penalty, and keep on leading your field.

e.g   Waller Empire not gunna collapse because 'Moron" staff member gave a horse Ice. (2016 event) 

Handy excuse that bad egg one isn't it?

In the Waller case , what organisation of that magnitude is going to let someone bad egg them to that extent i.e. the Junoob case same must go for TA if that is the case of course.

[Huey]

9 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

That would be an exaggeration!  

What an exaggeration if they have be found to have cheated, how so?

[Chief Stipe]

6 minutes ago, Huey said:

What an exaggeration if they have be found to have cheated, how so?

"Everybody would want them to fail."  Didn't happen with the O'Sullivan stable did it?  

The fact is in this case it would be impossible to prove that they had "cheated" even if they had.  The horse has recorded a positive.  That in itself isn't sufficient evidence to prove anything other than there was morphine in the horse's system.  Hardly performance enhancing is it?  Morphine isn't a "Go Fast" drug.

As I posted earlier - how many positive tests has Te Akau returned over the years?

[Gammalite]

5 minutes ago, Huey said:

Handy excuse that bad egg one isn't it?

In the Waller case , what organisation of that magnitude is going to let someone bad egg them to that extent i.e. the Junoob case same must go for TA if that is the case of course.

Definitely !!  Warner the bad egg, + 2 other Eggheads,  was weeded out for deliberate cheating ( but back unfortunately) rest of organisation carried on ............

In Waller's case , an organisation that big is going to be Bad Egged for sure. The more numbers , the more chance? of staff that is. Like on BOAY lol.....  10 posters might be good, 100 posters there will be some Rotten Eggs ........lol.

 

[nomates]

2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

"Everybody would want them to fail."  Didn't happen with the O'Sullivan stable did it?  

 

You would be surprised at the feeling toward the O'S stable when they were high flying . But that is natural human nature along with the Tall Poppy syndrome at work . Not everyone but there were plenty looking for them to fall over , lots of tales and stories done the rounds when i was in Matamata thru the 80's . Don't know of any that i heard were true tho . Didn't stop it happening .

[Chief Stipe]

1 minute ago, Gammalite said:

In Waller's case , an organisation that big is going to be Bad Egged for sure. The more numbers , the more chance? of staff that is. Like on BOAY lol.....  10 posters might be good, 100 posters there will be some Rotten Eggs ........lol.

Why does it have to be internal staff?  Just count all the individuals involved in getting a horse to the races particularly if you are a small stable or even a big stable that uses a horse transporting company.

[Chief Stipe]

1 minute ago, nomates said:

You would be surprised at the feeling toward the O'S stable when they were high flying . But that is natural human nature along with the Tall Poppy syndrome at work . Not everyone but there were plenty looking for them to fall over , lots of tales and stories done the rounds when i was in Matamata thru the 80's . Don't know of any that i heard were true tho . Didn't stop it happening .

Exactly.  Those stories are always doing the rounds particularly when one stable is doing better than others.

[Joe Bloggs]

16 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

But that is the process working.  As far as I'm concerned pre-race testing as you describe it with the scratching of horses pre-race would not add any more value except a lot more cost, evidential issues and the potential for injustice.  You would be putting a testing regime unnecessarily under pressure to achieve nothing more than what you achieve through the swabbing process.  

We are on different planets, it's the difference of picking up a horse with gear in it prior to the fact, that's integral to the very essence of our industry, I ran second once at Newcastle to a prick.....he said to me on the Monday at the track, get on the juice mate or you'll always be second.....I never forgot it........he's struggling now, his health is terrible, the Karma bus perhaps......I'll always believe, rub out cheats for life, I was no Bart Cummings, but I never resorted to being a needle trainer, there are far too many of those, blokes who use the needle to cover their inadequacies....

Te Akau may well have a very legitimate excuse, I'm after a level playing field, with your argument Chief, its a minefield.