Melody Belle's 2.6M...

[Huey]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

OK so I'm not allowed to have an opinion on my own site?

Should I take on a persona of obsequious sycophancy and write syrupy posts congratulating or offering condolences for people I don't even know?

Then sign off any post that may have a hint of controversy with the acronym "JMHO"?

No wonder this industry is in the state it is in.

You got a point there.

[Rangatira]

On 28/05/2021 at 8:19 AM, Chief Stipe said:

FFS Pitty - how many horses have you successfully campaigned in Australia? 

pretty sure dunedin guineas winner just tommy won in sydney

[Chief Stipe]

27 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

pretty sure dunedin guineas winner just tommy won in sydney

I don't think it was trained by Pitman when in OZ.

I probably was a bit harsh in my comeback but I've been getting more and more annoyed with the ambivalence that he shows towards the state of the track at Riccarton.

Plus I wasn’t sure if him mentioning Princess Coup out of left field wasn't the start of going down another rabbit hole.

I'm also tired of the unsubstantiated crap spewing forth from @Horace whose posts the majority of the time are having a dig at one particular stable.

[Newmarket]

Gee Chief, relax dude. You need to keep posters, not get rid of them. Especially Pitty, we need trainers input

[Rangatira]

9 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

I don't think it was trained by Pitman when in OZ.

ah maybe the late tony prendergast then

[Chief Stipe]

11 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

ah maybe the late tony prendergast then

Yep that's who.  Owned by Snow Thomas.  Out of a mare named Palvet which Snow and a close friend/relative of mine raced.

[Freda]

I think you'll find Pitty trained Just Tommy regardless. 

Anyway, the topic was about costs to travel horses,  not to nitpick about specific horses.

I can recall both Michael and Diane taking horses over, not every year, but over a fair period of time.  Most recently,  Savvy Coup.  Sensei went over, that cranky Elusive City mare whose name escapes me;  many years ago, they took a team including  Noble Task, a stayer, to take advantage of the 2600 races in Melbourne in the off-season...Coup Align went more recently. 

So I think he has better information than most of us regarding travelling horses.  And it's not easy to organise either .

A few years ago, a friend of mine asked Jim Gibbs when he might take his classy sprinter over.  I can't think of his name either, but he was by Volksraad. 

He replied that he would not consider compromising his horse's chances as a result of his own inexperience with Australian conditions.   If the horse went, he said, he would place him with a local trainer,  with all the infrastructure intact.  Riders, feed merchants,  health practitioners,  all the paraphernalia involved in maintaining a stable already up and going.  I'd go as a strapper for him, he added, if allowed! 

Edited May 29, 2021 by Freda

[JJ Flash]

On 28/05/2021 at 10:34 PM, Chief Stipe said:

Who's arguing.

You- again and again. As you say , its your site but Sandpiper makes a very good point which others, apart from me obviously agree with. 

Edited May 29, 2021 by JJ Flash

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Freda said:

So I think he has better information than most of us regarding travelling horses.  And it's not easy to organise either .

Probably do but the discussion at that point was about estimating the annual cost of training Melody Belle.  I put a finger in the air estimate of $45k.  

No one else has put up an estimate yet but of course that doesn't stop some from critiquing the $45k.

Now if I'm out of touch with costs and the actual is way North of $45k then it only highlights to me that NZ Owners are carrying racing in NZ disproportionately to any other stakeholder and it has got worse.

Look at it this way the owner who pays all the bills would have to win at least $45k a year to break even.  I'm other words races totally $100k in stakes.

[Freda]

15 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

 

Look at it this way the owner who pays all the bills would have to win at least $45k a year to break even.  I'm other words races totally $100k in stakes.

Yep.

Several years ago I estimated  $30k to race a horse for a year.   Costs have increased significantly since then, and relative returns, reduced. I was criticised, in some quarters, for not taking into account the times a horse may be out spelling.  But, those same critics didn't consider the 'swings and roundabouts' of expense when extra, not budgeted-for, costs rear their head [ and neither did it occur to them that agistment still has to be paid for, which some, astoundingly, didn't think of ].  And my rough estimate didn't, of course, take into account significant travel costs - like Australia, for example.  

I have seen T.A accounts.     Not cheap, but, with the enormous, and very successful, operation to fund, certainly not unreasonable for the level of service supplied.

I should think $45k wouldn't be out of the way locally, and more if travelling is involved.

And, why such a successful operation doesn't look at setting up in Australia,  I don't know.   They do have plenty of average horses, as well as the better ones...as does every stable.  The rewards against costs, for those lesser horses still capable of winning races, are far in excess of what they can earn here.  That doesn't make sense to me.    The setting up of the Singapore option was, at the time, giving those horses below Grp status better earning chances.  But,  Australia is now so superior in every aspect, surely it is only a matter of time before a satellite operation is considered?

[Chief Stipe]

15 minutes ago, Freda said:

And, why such a successful operation doesn't look at setting up in Australia,  I don't know.   They do have plenty of average horses, as well as the better ones...as does every stable.  The rewards against costs, for those lesser horses still capable of winning races, are far in excess of what they can earn here.  That doesn't make sense to me.

Australia is a different competitive ball game altogether.  I don't think many of us realise how competitive it is all throughout OZ racing from the Metrop right through the provincial, country and out to the bush.  Many of our horses running around that do OK here would really struggle at provincial meetings.

You only have to look at Melody Belle as an example.  NZ's top horse for the last 3 seasons didn't quite match up to the elite in OZ.  Partly some of that in my opinion was to do with her racing style and the way some Jockey's rode her in OZ.  If you can't consistently run on or close to the speed than a very good horse isn't going to win that often.  The champions like Verry Elleegant get away with it but there not many.

We also need to look at the number of horses that those big stables train and churn through to remain competitive.  That is another whole level in investment.

So for TA to venture to OZ it would involve considerable upfront investment, the establishment of good supply chains including food, transport, agistment and vets, good staff which are hard to find, an increase in the number of horses purchased at various sales, Jockey partnerships and more.  No small task.  

Two approaches to it - one all in big investment or softly softly creating a base in one State and feeding into the other States from OZ and NZ.  The bit investment approach would put at risk the successful NZ operation.

Also it would involve a step up for Jamie Richards as a trainer and a modification of his approach.  You can get away with a few soft runs in NZ and still be competitive.  In OZ you have to have your horse a small percentage points around its peak fitness from the get go and sustain that for 6 or 7 runs.

It might be just a perception rather than fact but it seems to me that horses based in NZ doing successful raids across the Tasman are getting fewer and fewer.  That is probably a reflection of the fact that our top racing has fallen to OZ provincial or even country level.

[Freda]

You're not wrong there...but yes, I was really referring to provincial/country level involvement.  Still need decent horses though.

[Horace]

On 26/05/2021 at 6:06 PM, Horace said:

According to NZTR she won $4,220,000 odd. Thats $422,000 to Te Akau at 10%. Plus you can guarantee that the syndicate got charged plenty of expenses etc along the way.

If it was me I'm not sure if I'd be interested in paying Te Akau anything from the $2.6m, although I bet they send Fortuna an 'account'. Ellis/TeAkau tried that one on a well known stud in NZ a few years ago after the stud sold a mare Te akau trained. The stud owner told them to get stuffed. Needless to say Ellis hasn't bought any of their yearlings at Karaka since.🤑

 

In respect of the above comment I retract this and unreservedly apologise to TeAkau/D Ellis for the comment.

Horace (A Godsalve)

 

[SLB2.0]

Why did you retract it Horace?

Were you asked to? Or just a change of heart?

[The Centaur]

On 30/05/2021 at 6:06 AM, Freda said:

I think you'll find Pitty trained Just Tommy regardless. 

Anyway, the topic was about costs to travel horses,  not to nitpick about specific horses.

I can recall both Michael and Diane taking horses over, not every year, but over a fair period of time.  Most recently,  Savvy Coup.  Sensei went over, that cranky Elusive City mare whose name escapes me;  many years ago, they took a team including  Noble Task, a stayer, to take advantage of the 2600 races in Melbourne in the off-season...Coup Align went more recently. 

So I think he has better information than most of us regarding travelling horses.  And it's not easy to organise either .

 

Didn't MP base himself in Victoria and train from there for a season or two.

I distinctly remember a quote in the press when he got back that even after training many hundreds of winners in NZ it wasn't until training in OZ he learnt all about feeding.

[Reefton]

I had a 10% share in one with Te Akau that I brought just over ten years ago.  It won a hundred thousand all up and I paid out over three years and five months $15,076.37 so the overall cost for three and a half years was (say) $250,000.    From deduct the purchase cost and cost of a Singapore transfer and it comes back to  $182k or $52000 a year.  Melody Belle went to Aussie several times so I would be extremely surprised (given inflation, Te Akau's charges increases and Fortuna being in the middle) if it cost her owners less than $100,000 a year to keep her.

For example they used to charge $5 to use the colours(be it a trial or raceday).  Now I think it is $25

I could tell some stories about it but I won't.  All I can say is it is expensive owning good horses(not that he was particularly good) and when they start traipsing to Aussie regularly it gets effing dear

 

 

 

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Reefton said:

I had a 10% share in one with Te Akau that I brought just over ten years ago.  It won a hundred thousand all up and I paid out over three years and five months $15,076.37 so the overall cost for three and a half years was (say) $250,000.    From deduct the purchase cost and cost of a Singapore transfer and it comes back to  $182k or $52000 a year.  Melody Belle went to Aussie several times so I would be extremely surprised (given inflation, Te Akau's charges increases and Fortuna being in the middle) if it cost her owners less than $100,000 a year to keep her.

For example they used to charge $5 to use the colours(be it a trial or raceday).  Now I think it is $25

I could tell some stories about it but I won't.  All I can say is it is expensive owning good horses(not that he was particularly good) and when they start traipsing to Aussie regularly it gets effing dear.

They cleared what then on Melody Belle?  I'd be happy.

Although Fortuna slap a premium on the purchase price which Te Akau don't.

[Gospel of Judas]

Can remember back in days of Racechat someone do a cost and returns one on Te Akau and two other leading buyers. Te Akau returned 28% of all costs back. However that analysis did not include some went on to had good stud careers, return figure would been better more around 70% mark. Even since then return figure be abit better. But whatever way look at it, even if got good one, going cost you abit and even a slow one some more money. So be prepared, for wild ride and going be opening you're wallet. Whatever way look at it.

[Chief Stipe]

41 minutes ago, Gospel of Judas said:

Can remember back in days of Racechat someone do a cost and returns one on Te Akau and two other leading buyers. Te Akau returned 28% of all costs back. However that analysis did not include some went on to had good stud careers, return figure would been better more around 70% mark. Even since then return figure be abit better. But whatever way look at it, even if got good one, going cost you abit and even a slow one some more money. So be prepared, for wild ride and going be opening you're wallet. Whatever way look at it.

What was the return on Melody Belle?