joint injections

[the galah]

On jewels day an interesting riu tweet,also repeated on trackside,was that the hope stable had advised muscle mountain,midnight dash and the 2 year old mr love had their joints injected.

These notifications are nothing new,certain stables seem to do it quite often. I'm not suggesting anything dodgy,but i think it reasonable to ask why?.

Mr love was a 2 year old with only 4 starts,and muscle mountain certainly hasn't been over raced. If beach training is supposed to help,then why are beach trained horses needing joint injections when so young. Is this an indication that soreness will impact the longevity of their racing careers?

Edited June 14, 2021 by the galah

[Brodie]

22 hours ago, the galah said:

On jewels day an interesting riu tweet,also repeated on trackside,was that the hope stable had advised muscle mountain,midnight dash and the 2 year old mr love had their joints injected.

These notifications are nothing new,certain stables seem to do it quite often. I'm not suggesting anything dodgy,but i think it reasonable to ask why?.

Mr love was a 2 year old with only 4 starts,and muscle mountain certainly hasn't been over raced. If beach training is supposed to help,then why are beach trained horses needing joint injections when so young. Is this an indication that soreness will impact the longevity of their racing careers?

Having the horses hocks injected does seem to make a huge improvement in horses!

No damn use telling the punters this as the horses are up behind the mobile, as far too late.

Why is it not disclosed far earlier?

Why are other things not disclosed like acupunture or muscle treatment?

Why, because they do not have to!

[the galah]

36 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Having the horses hocks injected does seem to make a huge improvement in horses!

No damn use telling the punters this as the horses are up behind the mobile, as far too late.

Why is it not disclosed far earlier?

Why are other things not disclosed like acupunture or muscle treatment?

Why, because they do not have to!

your obviously right that having hock injections may improve performance if the horse has some soreness. That would be the only reason you would give that type of injection would it not? I have done a little reading on it,and that seems to be the case.Your not going to inject a sound horse surely.

So your left with the assumption that all 3 of Hopes horses must have some degree of soreness.They already are beach trained,and one was a 2yo with only 4 starts.

Edited June 15, 2021 by the galah

[Gammalite]

22 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Having the horses hocks injected does seem to make a huge improvement in horses!

No damn use telling the punters this as the horses are up behind the mobile, as far too late.

Why is it not disclosed far earlier?

Why are other things not disclosed like acupunture or muscle treatment?

Why, because they do not have to!

You can't exactly go around 'listing the treatments' for every horse for the punter's sake. (however In USA they have to list them for the swabbing stewards sake)

Many drenches, feed 'supplements, liniments on tendons etc etc are just as potent (or help the 'Huge Improvement you spoke of in horse)  as much as a bit of 'dex' or 'pred' anti-inflammatories in joints.

as far as acupuncture goes, that's just an extra I would liken to swimming. which we did frequently with horses. Does the Punter need to know if the horse he has been betting on, is going for a swim??? some things help some horses more than others. there is physical and mental training.

The TRAINING PROGRAM is the extra Super Important Aspect of a horses racing performance. The way they have their day to day track training. (resulting in the fine mental training of the racehorse). something desparately needed to get multiple wins.

Hock injections can also be a local (like football players) to numb the area a little for the shock impact of a fast race. Corticosteroids (the Dex or Pred anti-inflammatories ) have a with-holding period. 

[Brodie]

How do we actually know what horses have had the Golden Injection?

It could be going on all the time and not advised for a variety of reasons?

Punting, stake money and looking at selling the horse?

Wouldnt be surprised if most horses have some slight soreness in the legs somewhere, due to the amount of speed work they do?

Most human athletes that run mega miles will have minor aches and pains dont they?

[Chief Stipe]

23 minutes ago, the galah said:

So your left with the assumption that all 3 of Hopes horses must have some degree of soreness.They already are beach trained,and one was a 2yo with only 4 starts.

No you have left out probably the most likely reason and that is the injections are preventative rather than therapeutic.  That's what top stables do.  They know that the training regimes needed to keep a horse at the top will result in wear and tear so they take preventative measures to forestall the onset of wear and tear.

[the galah]

10 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

No you have left out probably the most likely reason and that is the injections are preventative rather than therapeutic.  That's what top stables do.  They know that the training regimes needed to keep a horse at the top will result in wear and tear so they take preventative measures to forestall the onset of wear and tear.

So your saying some stables inject horses joints that have no soreness,but as a way of preventing their horses getting sore in the future.  i'm not saying your wrong,but vets must love trainers like that if that were the case. I don't have an endless supply of money,so doing that makes no sense to me.

 

[Chief Stipe]

Just now, the galah said:

So your saying some stables inject horses joints that have no soreness,but as a way of preventing their horses getting sore in the future.  i'm not saying your wrong,but vets must love trainers like that if that were the case. I don't have an endless supply of money,so doing that makes no sense to me.

Well Galah that's the difference between you and an All Star's trainer.  I've been privy to some of the detail on what preventative measures some trainers take and to be frank I'm impressed.  Wear and tear is inevitable and preventing onset is important.

It has been published widely that Chris Waller often gives Lasix to his horses prior to fast workouts.  This is to minimise the inevitable EIPH which occurs in 90% of horses at high performance.

Some trainers give their horses proton inhibitors to counter the high acidic nature of high energy feeds.  They have no evidence of the horses having stomach ulcers but they know that 90% of the time they will develop.

Compare it to you and your hypertension medication - the hypertension is a symptom of your lifestyle and maybe some genetic predisposition but the medication is taken to prevent major heart disease or stroke.

 

[Gammalite]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

So your saying some stables inject horses joints that have no soreness,but as a way of preventing their horses getting sore in the future.  i'm not saying your wrong,but vets must love trainers like that if that were the case. I don't have an endless supply of money,so doing that makes no sense to me.

 

$200-$300 per injection, but vet probably give 'bulk discount' for multiple joints. some owners would pay it without a blink , as horse comfort and winning go 'Hand in Hand " lol........

Large breed dogs get them quite often , (corticosteroid injection in stifle) as often have joint pain/issues whether degenerative or surgical (cruciate rupture/tear)

[Davis]

2 hours ago, the galah said:

your obviously right that having hock injections may improve performance if the horse has some soreness. That would be the only reason you would give that type of injection would it not? I have done a little reading on it,and that seems to be the case.Your not going to inject a sound horse surely.

So your left with the assumption that all 3 of Hopes horses must have some degree of soreness.They already are beach trained,and one was a 2yo with only 4 starts.

The Hopes get them going early Galah. Perhaps that is the reason for the unsoundness issues, or it could be the breed or confirmation too?

[the galah]

4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Well Galah that's the difference between you and an All Star's trainer.  I've been privy to some of the detail on what preventative measures some trainers take and to be frank I'm impressed.  Wear and tear is inevitable and preventing onset is important.

It has been published widely that Chris Waller often gives Lasix to his horses prior to fast workouts.  This is to minimise the inevitable EIPH which occurs in 90% of horses at high performance.

Some trainers give their horses proton inhibitors to counter the high acidic nature of high energy feeds.  They have no evidence of the horses having stomach ulcers but they know that 90% of the time they will develop.

Compare it to you and your hypertension medication - the hypertension is a symptom of your lifestyle and maybe some genetic predisposition but the medication is taken to prevent major heart disease or stroke.

 

I get what your saying,but from what i've read there seems to be some debate amongst vets as to whether regularly injecting horses joints is the right thing to do or not. Is it not a case of treating the sympton,while often not addressing the cause?

From what you say it seems part of the reason for many trainers success is the fact that their owners are happy to pay big vet bills. That puts 95% of owners at a disadvantage to those with the big cheque books,even if they did see it that way.

And its not as if taking the preventative action you describe prevents injuries.If it was such a successful strategy,how come the All stars had so many of their high profile horses have injuries in the last couple of years. You could draw the conclusion that preventative action simply delays the inevitable injury,sometimes the end result is far worse for the horse. 

 

 

[Chief Stipe]

2 minutes ago, the galah said:

Is it not a case of treating the sympton,while often not addressing the cause?

The "cause" dare I say it out loud is that your average horse is not built to withstand performing at a high level over an extended period of time.

Gammalite would probably argue that the breed although faster and with greater stamina than yesteryear is not as tough.

5 minutes ago, the galah said:

From what you say it seems part of the reason for many trainers success is the fact that their owners are happy to pay big vet bills. That puts 95% of owners at a disadvantage to those with the big cheque books,even if they did see it that way.

It has been like that for a very long time.

6 minutes ago, the galah said:

And its not as if taking the preventative action you describe prevents injuries.If it was such a successful strategy,how come the All stars had so many of their high profile horses have injuries in the last couple of years.

It is due to the intensity at which they are trained and raced for long periods of time.  It only takes a 1 or 2% difference for a horse to go from being good to very good or champion class.

So every preventative measure is taken to minimise wear and tear but the horses are still worked and raced harder because of it.

[Newmarket]

On 16/06/2021 at 10:15 AM, Chief Stipe said:

No you have left out probably the most likely reason and that is the injections are preventative rather than therapeutic.  That's what top stables do.  They know that the training regimes needed to keep a horse at the top will result in wear and tear so they take preventative measures to forestall the onset of wear and tear.

So if it was preventative rather than what you call, therapeutic😆, why would they give it to all horses, just before big races? Come on, you are joking

[Jones]

Thought that joint injections e.g. hock, had rule had changed to now a stand-down time of 7 days ish? Same as blood spinning 7 days ish. Could be wrong re injections but certain of it re blood spinning. 

Did note on RIU twitter that a couple of others were notified since their last race got injected. But noted it was after their last race. Read that as meaning be 7 days prior the next race. (Again could be wrong, so please anyone feel free to update on the correct timeframe if inaccurate - joint injections).

Edited June 19, 2021 by Jones

[Chief Stipe]

5 hours ago, Newmarket said:

So if it was preventative rather than what you call, therapeutic😆, why would they give it to all horses, just before big races? Come on, you are joking

Your and Galah's alternative scenario is?

[the galah]

16 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Your and Galah's alternative scenario is?

well you asked,so i will reply.

Newmarkets pointed out that the injections given by the vet to the 3 Hope horses,  were given just prior to the jewels. The jewels are big races. Your saying that such injections can be  for preventative reasons. We are saying given the timing of the injections,they were most likely not given for preventative reasons,but given to reduce some possible inflammation which they may have believed was there,and had become apparent in some form when the horses were being trained.

Given the likely reason. Some of the conclusions could be.1)Does it not highlight what some stables use to get horses to continue to race.(i'm just pointing that out,not having a go at anyone in particular).2) the cost. 3)does it not highlight that its either a breed issue,or highlights many young horses struggle to cope with the training required to get them to race when so young. 4)that there is a price to pay,and that will be the longevity of their racing careers will be shortened because their bodies were asked to do more than they were able to cope with when they were young. As i've said,you argue that the likes of the all star stables are ahead of the game as far as taking such steps. I argue that the reason so many of their top horses have injuries is because of that very strategy. 

Just making an observation that i think should be debated more.You have to look at both the positive and negatives surrounding this type of thing.

[Chief Stipe]

20 minutes ago, the galah said:

Newmarkets pointed out that the injections given by the vet to the 3 Hope horses,  were given just prior to the jewels. The jewels are big races. Your saying that such injections can be  for preventative reasons. We are saying given the timing of the injections,they were most likely not given for preventative reasons,but given to reduce some possible inflammation which they may have believed was there,and had become apparent in some form when the horses were being trained.

Were the horses floated to Auckland?  When?

Being the harness training experts @the galah and @Newmarket then you would know that the stresses of long float trips are quite different.

22 minutes ago, the galah said:

Given the likely reason.

Alleged and assumed "likely reason".

22 minutes ago, the galah said:

Some of the conclusions could be.1)Does it not highlight what some stables use to get horses to continue to race.(i'm just pointing that out,not having a go at anyone in particular)

You are either naive or have been hiding under a mushroom if you think that the top trainers in all codes are not applying preventative medications to keep their charges at the top of the game.

24 minutes ago, the galah said:

2) the cost.

Racing at the elite level competitively costs.  Don't get into the game unless you can afford the best feeds, the best supplements, the best treatments and vets. 

26 minutes ago, the galah said:

3)does it not highlight that its either a breed issue,or highlights many young horses struggle to cope with the training required to get them to race when so young.

It has always been the case - the fact is that treatments both preventative and therapeutic have got better over the years.  You can go back through many decades of racing and find horses that have had carried issues that today can be alleviated or cured.  Lord Module and Noodlum are two that come to mind.

28 minutes ago, the galah said:

4)that there is a price to pay,and that will be the longevity of their racing careers will be shortened because their bodies were asked to do more than they were able to cope with when they were young.

Yes some don't continue their early age form through to later years but many do.  However often that is because they don't step up to the next level.  Always has been the case where precocious youngsters have picked up big races early in their careers but others that have taken more time have eventually surpassed them in ability.

30 minutes ago, the galah said:

As i've said,you argue that the likes of the all star stables are ahead of the game as far as taking such steps. I argue that the reason so many of their top horses have injuries is because of that very strategy. 

That's a fact of racing and in my opinion is the smoking issue that when the anti-racing groups get their heads around it will hammer racing more than any "use of whips" issue.  The industry is also shooting itself in the foot on this issue when it comes to zero thresholds.  The authorities have already made an ass of themselves around Cobalt levels - the Peter Moody case being the classic example.

The question is a simple one - do you allow Trainers to administer preventative and therapeutic non-performance enhancing treatments to prevent wear and tear and improve the health of their horses?  For example why can't a trainer administer a proton-inhibitor to their horses feeds every day?  Horses chronically suffer from stomach ulcers.  I bet you are taking Losec or Omeprazole - doesn't make you run faster but sure makes you less grumpy!

[Jones]

22 hours ago, Jones said:

Thought that joint injections e.g. hock, had rule had changed to now a stand-down time of 7 days ish? Same as blood spinning 7 days ish. Could be wrong re injections but certain of it re blood spinning. 

Did note on RIU twitter that a couple of others were notified since their last race got injected. But noted it was after their last race. Read that as meaning be 7 days prior the next race. (Again could be wrong, so please anyone feel free to update on the correct timeframe if inaccurate - joint injections).

Tried searching for this, re HRNZ rules only had a quick look before googling & found this, written within this newspaper link.

All joint injections in racehorses are now banned for eight clear days prior to racing, in comparison to the previous rule which allowed it up to one clear day of racing.

https://www.odt.co.nz/star-news/star-christchurch/fridge-gas-doping-concern-horses

So unlikely it was just before the race re Jewels. Prob just notifying and was 8 days prior race as per rules. Unless this news article is incorrect re stand-down times. 

[the galah]

32 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Were the horses floated to Auckland?  When?

Being the harness training experts @the galah and @Newmarket then you would know that the stresses of long float trips are quite different.

Alleged and assumed "likely reason".

You are either naive or have been hiding under a mushroom if you think that the top trainers in all codes are not applying preventative medications to keep their charges at the top of the game.

Racing at the elite level competitively costs.  Don't get into the game unless you can afford the best feeds, the best supplements, the best treatments and vets. 

It has always been the case - the fact is that treatments both preventative and therapeutic have got better over the years.  You can go back through many decades of racing and find horses that have had carried issues that today can be alleviated or cured.  Lord Module and Noodlum are two that come to mind.

Yes some don't continue their early age form through to later years but many do.  However often that is because they don't step up to the next level.  Always has been the case where precocious youngsters have picked up big races early in their careers but others that have taken more time have eventually surpassed them in ability.

That's a fact of racing and in my opinion is the smoking issue that when the anti-racing groups get their heads around it will hammer racing more than any "use of whips" issue.  The industry is also shooting itself in the foot on this issue when it comes to zero thresholds.  The authorities have already made an ass of themselves around Cobalt levels - the Peter Moody case being the classic example.

The question is a simple one - do you allow Trainers to administer preventative and therapeutic non-performance enhancing treatments to prevent wear and tear and improve the health of their horses?  For example why can't a trainer administer a proton-inhibitor to their horses feeds every day?  Horses chronically suffer from stomach ulcers.  I bet you are taking Losec or Omeprazole - doesn't make you run faster but sure makes you less grumpy!

The more reliant trainers become on the vets and their treatments ,the more costly it is to the owners.

The more advances "legal theraputics"(not so much  referring to joint injections), have on improving horse performance,the greater the gap in results between the 5% of trainers that use them and the 95% of trainers that don't. The less competitive the 95% of trainers become....the smaller the number of owners and trainers there becomes. The smaller the number of owners and trainers participating in the sport,the greater the decline in the industry.

You are embracing and actively promoting a practice which will ultimately help the industries decline. Your painting a picture of reality,i just lament the negative side effects of such practices.

I also point out one fact you can't deny. Some trainers clearly have become reliant on vets. There was a time when trainers would adjust training routines,now the vet is the first go to person to solve the problem.Thats a negative in my book,but thats just my opinion.

[Gammalite]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

The more advances "legal theraputics"(not so much  referring to joint injections), have on improving horse performance,the greater the gap in results between the 5% of trainers that use them and the 95% of trainers that don't.

 

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Racing at the elite level competitively costs.  Don't get into the game unless you can afford the best feeds, the best supplements, the best treatments and vets. 

100% correct. You guys are all on the money in this thread. If you want to WIN a race, you do everything in your power (that is legal) to have the horse 'Feeling great' and going great for that race. 

You would fully expect a 'range' of treatments would of been administered for Jewels Day. I see no problem.

Some are arguing against the costly excercise of joint injection. fair enough. some argue against whips etc fair enough.

Personally I argue against the NASAL STRIPS, so often prodominant (and brutally ugly) on Allstars and Dunns horses that others don't have. They obviously work to a degree , judging by results. So why don't they all have them.?????

EXAMPLE :  Trainer Cam Jones picked one up (a NASAL strip that marked this horse URGENT)  from somewhere and applied it to BENSONS MATE in Race 1 at Addington last Thurs 17th june. Check out that race !!!!  horse heavily backed . Leaders nose with a strip to suck in air. !  and 'Cheating' driver Newman actually KICKED the horse ! half way up the home straight , to be sure the plunge was gunna come off. NEWMAN 'panicked' for a second there, and even tried running 2nd placegetter out as well in the straight???? lol. a disgrace to 'honest' racing that race was.  

 

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

The more reliant trainers become on the vets and their treatments ,the more costly it is to the owners.

The more advances "legal theraputics"(not so much  referring to joint injections), have on improving horse performance,the greater the gap in results between the 5% of trainers that use them and the 95% of trainers that don't. The less competitive the 95% of trainers become....the smaller the number of owners and trainers there becomes. The smaller the number of owners and trainers participating in the sport,the greater the decline in the industry.

So what is your alternative?  Be a luddite in your approach to the health and welfare of an elite equine athlete?  Go back to feeding them on oats and chaff?

Play to the lowest common denominator?  Ban everything except mung beans and leather harness?

Elite human athletes are doing similar LEGAL things.  I remember when I was a fairly decent athlete in my teenage years electrolyte replacement supplements become common.  They made a huge difference.  At the same time they started to become more readily available and at a reasonable cost for horse racing.  I raised the topic with my father's horse trainer and discussed the science and very soon the addition of electrolytes post hard workouts became a normal feed additive.  They weren't cheap but owners were willing to pay it as it helped with reducing tying up, fluid replacement and recovery.  Do you ban them as well?

2 hours ago, the galah said:

You are embracing and actively promoting a practice which will ultimately help the industries decline. Your painting a picture of reality,i just lament the negative side effects of such practices.

NO I'm "embracing and actively promoting" practices that are focused on animal health and welfare.  The reality is that neither the Thoroughbred nor the Standardbred animal is designed for high performance for long periods of time WITHOUT the active prevention and treatment of wear and tear.  Arguably it is inhumane not to use these treatments.  For that reason I have a different opinion to most on the use of Lasix to forestall the inevitable development of EIPH.

2 hours ago, the galah said:

I also point out one fact you can't deny. Some trainers clearly have become reliant on vets. There was a time when trainers would adjust training routines,now the vet is the first go to person to solve the problem.Thats a negative in my book,but thats just my opinion.

Many of the top trainers DON'T need to go to Vets as often because they take preventative measures to avoid an issue occurring.  They know from experience that if they have a horse that has a tying up problem that they can adjust the feeding and supplement regime to counter it.  Some trainers will get regular comprehensive blood tests and adjust feeds accordingly in order to avoid bigger issues.  They have learnt to read these tests.  That distinguishes the elite trainer from the also ran.  

[the galah]

gammalite,i quite like k newman as a driver. I'm not entirely sure what he did half way down straight when he lifted his leg,but i assumed he may have been releasing the ear plugs. i think he always tries his best,which is important.

[Jones]

OMG hilarious, see what you mean Gamms, not sure if it is as Galahs said freeing ear plugs or as you say kicking horse, but reminds me of when I saw a video workout or trial of N Rass kicking horse think it may have been Italian Lads legs, she got pulled up about it too. Naughty, naughty.

And also reminds me of when saw B Orange literally push a horse trotter out of the way. So his horse could get space in straight & think it won.

Never knew such rules were allowed.

A push and a shove lol

[Gammalite]

43 minutes ago, the galah said:

gammalite,i quite like k newman as a driver. I'm not entirely sure what he did half way down straight when he lifted his leg,but i assumed he may have been releasing the ear plugs. i think he always tries his best,which is important.

He was kicking its tail IMO . there are many ways to tie a tail (gently to the sulky) esp. in wet conditions. did it many times. esp mares who try to 'swish' you away lol.....

The young bloke Newman gave it (tail) a bit of a whack with his boot as the 2nd horse was getting closer, and he got the reaction he wanted. I don't like those sort of things.

Try it yourself, hold your cat or dog gently by the tail with one hand, while it's mulling around your feet. then give it a little whack with your foot (between your hand and base of tail) and see what happens.  Newman looking for that reaction ?

pretty sure earplugs are pulled by hand ? many Brisbane horses have deafeners. never seen foot release of them before, but guess it's possible if you wanted to be awkward.

[Brodie]

I think quite a few pull the plugs using your foot!

Seen it many times, Dexter used to do it I am sure!