What are the biggest issues facing racing right now?

[phdStudent]

Hi there,

I'm Lena. I'm working towards a (DSocSci) Doctor of Social Science and one of the topics I touch on in my thesis is horse racing, the social impacts it has in NZ and the moral/ethical decisions that are present due to the humane (or lack of) treatment of animals.

I'd love to hear from all of you, what are the biggest issues threatening the future of horse racing in NZ right now. Is it lack of funding, or lack of integrity, for example? Or simply people aren't that interested in this sport any more.

I really appreciate any thoughts you have. No personal details will be included in my work.

All the best,

Lena x

[Gammalite]

Horse racing has been around a long time Lena.

Most of the hands on participants have been working in the industry all their lives. the treatment of the animals is first class, as if these horses were part of the family , like a cat or dog , as they are relied on for income for those workers. I worked with horses many years and only saw an industry of compassionate horse-caring people.

When racing clubs close in some districts , the number declines as the workers and next generation of racing families, go and do 'something else' and leave the family farms etc. a world wide phenomenom. racing or farming. A critical 'loss' to those industries. that is the main threat you wanted to know.

Like-wise the 'regular ' race-goers decline at the same rate. People are more comfortable watching from home , these days, weather conditions, world-wide health concerns, reduced incomes , gambling dollar spread across other gambling sources is a loss for racing. Your 'social Impact' is way more with 'Pokies addiction' , a lot of sports clubs/RSL ,etc, making a fortune from machines rigged to win for them? where's their ethics ?  and have massive family 'social Impact' a lot more than the trusty beautiful racing horse ever did. 

[Huey]

Grammalite has made some excellent points.

But if you really want to know whats wrong with thoroughbred racing in this country look no further than our governing body NZTR. 

[nomates]

14 hours ago, phdStudent said:

Hi there,

I'm Lena. I'm working towards a (DSocSci) Doctor of Social Science and one of the topics I touch on in my thesis is horse racing, the social impacts it has in NZ and the moral/ethical decisions that are present due to the humane (or lack of) treatment of animals.

I'd love to hear from all of you, what are the biggest issues threatening the future of horse racing in NZ right now. Is it lack of funding, or lack of integrity, for example? Or simply people aren't that interested in this sport any more.

I really appreciate any thoughts you have. No personal details will be included in my work.

All the best,

Lena x

Hi Lena , if you really want an in depth and frank opinion you are best to go spend time at the training tracks in the mornings and talk to the struggling trainers and owners , then go to some lesser race days and talk to owners and participants there . But  just don't let the governing body know what your up to , they wouldn't be happy about it .

[Delta Bro]

Your third point is the correct one, "People aren't that interested in this sport any more." Even people who go to the races on the big days are not interested. They go to drink and socialise. The betting windows are deserted and the queues at the bar reach to wall on the other side of the room. Clubs bring in rows of port-a-loos because selling grog drives up the demand for toilets. 

At the other end of the spectrum racing is all about money: big money at the yearling sales; big money for a few races; and big money from selling a promising horse to an overseas buyer.

New Zealanders thought they were smart. They only wanted business people running things and they brought in overseas people who they thought had all the answers. In comparison with overseas countries New Zealand racing is now a basket case. The day will come when there is nothing left of it. 

[Freda]

Hi Lena

You've picked a fascinating topic to include in your thesis.  How much depth do you want, or need, to go in to?   because, once you've scratched the surface, you will find such a range of topics and/or opinions that you will wish you never started!

All the points made above are absolutely right.  But, from the point of a doctorate, you probably need to have valid comparisons with jurisdictions where racing works well.

To that end, Australia - and particularly NSW/Victoria - and the UK/Ireland, are systems you can realistically compare.    Both those regions mentioned are culturally and ethnically similar to NZ.....and before anyone leaps to take offence,   I didn't say 'the same'.     There are differences of course.

[Reefton]

On 2/07/2021 at 8:13 PM, phdStudent said:

Hi there,

I'm Lena. I'm working towards a (DSocSci) Doctor of Social Science and one of the topics I touch on in my thesis is horse racing, the social impacts it has in NZ and the moral/ethical decisions that are present due to the humane (or lack of) treatment of animals.

I'd love to hear from all of you, what are the biggest issues threatening the future of horse racing in NZ right now. Is it lack of funding, or lack of integrity, for example? Or simply people aren't that interested in this sport any more.

I really appreciate any thoughts you have. No personal details will be included in my work.

All the best,

Lena x

Dislocation between the people who have control and the people at the grassroots(stakeholders as they are known).

Nomates is right you need to go to a few of the deepest winter midweek days and talk to people there but equally you cannot ignore the big days either(Karaka Million, Kumara, NZ Cup day or whatever)

But Nomates is equally right to be wary of NZTR because they will become your 'best friend' and want to feed you all manner of data that says all is well and that the solution to the problem is exactly the sort of thing they are espousing.  And because they and their 'friends' are on the industry payroll they have an awful lot of time to spend making sure you see it their way.

I do not want to push you my way either - at the end of the day you are (clearly) a highly intelligent person but they(NZTR) would love nothing more than to have a thesis delivered that they have had massive influence over and which supports the tripe they spout on how to fix the game.

Just research the history of the NZTR principals before you give them too much credence - not too many successful enterprises built up by that lot

Best of luck

 

[nomates]

Another thing which would help you Lena is do some research on the history of NZ racing and how it was such a successful industry , this will give you some idea how far the industry has fallen in the last 20 years especially . My opinion is much of this decline is due to poor governance and as Reefton above has said the massive disconnect between the decision makers and the grass root participants .

Good luck , you will need it , there is huge issues in this industry and getting all the details you will require will be no small task .

[Delta Bro]

Someone using the non-de-plume Finga Bell Auckland wrote this account in a letter to The Informant (I think). It was photo-copied and given to me so I can't be sure where it appeared. For some reason I saved it in a ring binder. It is sort of relevant to this discussion.

I remember when: You went to the races and you were surrounded by people who were genuinely there for the racing, to see good jockeys, horses and have a bet. Having a drink and feed was something you ducked in to do between races. Now you are surrounded by young ladies tottering around on heels so high they can barely stay upright and that’s before they empty those flutes stuck to their hands and young guys in suits that look like they shrunk in the wash or they belong to their younger brothers.

I remember when: You were a racing person or you weren’t. If you were you had the Best Bets, Turf Digest or Sportweek in your drawer if you worked in an office or rolled up and stuck where your rulers should go if you were on the tools.

I remember when: Before each race it was eyes down and writing in your race card. Jockeys with initials like RJ, WD, GF, GR, DJ, JP, NBH, BS, DA and RW. If you added up all their wins it would have come to thousands, nowadays add up all their rides and it wouldn’t add up to thousands. In fact in some races today total career rides by jockeys wouldn’t add up to hundreds.

I remember when: Before marriage to mortgage you could afford to race a horse with a few mates, not 50 strangers, and you then could enjoy the win not watch some manager carry on like he owns it.

I remember when: The five bob double reigned supreme and you all had you favourite horses that you always took. Midnight Kiss, Craddock, Roganne, Corbassiere, etc or in the second leg Pell Mell, Gene, Whittle, Bijail, Alkaid.

I remember when: You all had racing stories of some got and some got away. The apprentice at work got the Rochdale-Geyserland double – legend! Dad just missed the Jovic-Poet’s Pride double. Mum and I backed Pan when he paid £50 a place at Avondale – Family Folklore.

I remember when: Everybody at the TAB or races knew if it rained get on the Indian Orders, Headhunters, etc or when it rained at Avondale and Clem Fabish was in town pile it on his Defence horses.

I know things aren’t always going to stay the same, but has everything got better?

[barryb]

Racing is like all sports in NZ, the choice has got far wider for the dollar & for viewing.

People in racing are narrow in there thinking if they dont understand that most others are grapling with reduced patronage & participation.

Have a look at Golf memberships (in freefall), Rugby Union is in massive decline for school age up to senior club level, even the old humble beach surfcaster guy has dropped away to now Xmas holidays if hes lucky.

Weekend shops open has created another dimension, people work far more at weekends & are busy in 2 income families running errands everywhere.

The days you talk about above was Dad working 8-5 mon-fri, with Mum at home or part time, those days are long gone for everyone.

[Delta Bro]

2 hours ago, barryb said:

Racing is like all sports in NZ, the choice has got far wider for the dollar & for viewing.

People in racing are narrow in there thinking if they dont understand that most others are grapling with reduced patronage & participation.

Have a look at Golf memberships (in freefall), Rugby Union is in massive decline for school age up to senior club level, even the old humble beach surfcaster guy has dropped away to now Xmas holidays if hes lucky.

Weekend shops open has created another dimension, people work far more at weekends & are busy in 2 income families running errands everywhere.

The days you talk about above was Dad working 8-5 mon-fri, with Mum at home or part time, those days are long gone for everyone.

Yesterday (Sunday) I went to the shopping mall. There were cars everywhere and finding a parking space was proving difficult for many. Luckily the mobility permit worked for us and we got a space right in front of the self-opening doors. Mum, who's ninety-two, said to me, "Look at all the people coming out of the mall. Most have only bought one item and many have bought nothing at all." I replied that people have got nothing to do, and because they don't want to sit around at home, they have all come to the shopping mall. 

People such as the late Campbell Moncur, got rid of domestic weekend racing so that weekend betting would be on Australian racing. Weekend racing was shifted to mid-week racing and under Greg Purcell much of that was on a Monday, because that is the worst day of week for racing anywhere and he thought Australian betting on New Zealand racing would be a bonanza. These guys set out to maximise revenue and thought the New Zealand public were so addicted to betting on racing, the downside would be minimal. Now virtually no one goes to the races except on heavily promoted days. They severely damaged the public's interest in New Zealand racing through their greed. Their successors haven't grasped the idea that Te Aroha is not the enemy of Te Rapa. If racing is going well at Te Aroha then racing will be going well at Te Rapa. Their latest move to close down as many racecourses as possible will kill more interest in racing. New Zealand racing will end up in Australia. Many of our trainers and riders are there already. 

Edited July 4, 2021 by Delta Bro

[barryb]

Some of what you say is right, however the decline was happening long before this period.

The issue is far too many fuddy duddies were running racing clubs, reluctant to embrace any change to their priviledged positions, today we are reaping the result of this.

Here's an example of what is at play and how little interest there is.

Warnambool v Te Rapa, have similar racing day numbers.

Warnambool has a pop of 35,000 v Hamilton pop of around 170,000,  Warnambool has a membership of over 2000 at $280 a year, Te Rapa would be struggling to have 150 at $125 a year.

Many of the Warnambool members are from Melbourne which is 3 hours away, how many of the Te Rapa members do you think are from Auckland which is 1.5hrs away?.

[mumbles]

 I recall my interest in racing dwindling substantially because of Saturday school sport.Had 3 boys in various sports,Summer and Winter, which mean't Saturdays attending Racing was over.Although all thats over i find my level of interest in Racing has never returned.

[mikeynz]

12 minutes ago, mumbles said:

 I recall my interest in racing dwindling substantially because of Saturday school sport.Had 3 boys in various sports,Summer and Winter, which mean't Saturdays attending Racing was over.Although all thats over i find my level of interest in Racing has never returned.

Like it or not the lack of easy access to radio coverage has probably turned off interest as well,since radio has gone I couldn't tell you what races are on in oz on any given day,I do know what's happening in NZ,we have all our flash devices bits it's not always convieniant,after a year or so now I dont really miss it now but it must have tainted a lot of interest.

On another note I do think some of the scheduling can be made better,always tinkering from season to season and still not getting it right.

Edited July 5, 2021 by mikeynz

[Huey]

1 minute ago, mikeynz said:

Like it or not the lack of easy access to radio coverage has probably turned off interest as well,since radio has gone I couldn't tell you what races are on in oz on any given day,I do know what's happening in NZ,we have all our flash devices bits it's not always convieniant,after a year or so now I dont really miss it now but it must have tainted a lot of interest.

Could not agree more Mikey, I know of many who just don't bother with it without the radio. The disconnection that has occurred without it has been enormously detrimental.

But apparently according to some it was a good idea, when in fact it will prove to be one of the worst decisions ever made in nzracing = and that is saying something!

[nomates]

41 minutes ago, Huey said:

Could not agree more Mikey, I know of many who just don't bother with it without the radio. The disconnection that has occurred without it has been enormously detrimental.

But apparently according to some it was a good idea, when in fact it will prove to be one of the worst decisions ever made in nzracing = and that is saying something!

The loss of radio coverage was the last in a long line of ill thought out ideas by people who thought the majority of punters were addicted and would do anything to get a bet on , how little they knew . I have met very few stupid or addicted punters in my near 50 years of going to TAB's or race courses .

I have met many very ignorant and stupid people who are paid to manage NZ racing and it's infrastructure .

I know who's company i prefer to keep .

[Reefton]

4 hours ago, barryb said:

Some of what you say is right, however the decline was happening long before this period.

The issue is far too many fuddy duddies were running racing clubs, reluctant to embrace any change to their priviledged positions, today we are reaping the result of this.

Here's an example of what is at play and how little interest there is.

Warnambool v Te Rapa, have similar racing day numbers.

Warnambool has a pop of 35,000 v Hamilton pop of around 170,000,  Warnambool has a membership of over 2000 at $280 a year, Te Rapa would be struggling to have 150 at $125 a year.

Many of the Warnambool members are from Melbourne which is 3 hours away, how many of the Te Rapa members do you think are from Auckland which is 1.5hrs away?.

I run a racing club and I am hardly in a 'privileged position' doing so.  On the contrary from my perspective having to continue doing it is a pain in the a... but there is nobody to take over.  What I am in though is a club which was rolling along, minding it's own business, keeping it's head above water, not costing the industry one cent and providing opportunities for stakeholders and product for the punters around NZ and, to a lesser extent, the world.   Whats more we have  a faithful band of regular attenders to whom we are extremely grateful for making our day thoroughly enjoyable.

We had never taken one cent from the industry to maintain or build our infrastructure, we obtained our land ourselves well over a century ago and we spend no money on staff or consultants since it is all voluntary labour by our committee and locals.  Our course is freehold and our debt is nil but the likes of Saundry and Co have advised us we owe our very existence to the NZ Racing industry and that the NZ Racing industry is entitled to control us and take our hard earned assets.  A little ironic that neither of the two Aussie's Messara and Saundry would even know where Reefton was but they know all about the reasons it is there.

If they were running Aussie racing they would be trying to shut Warnambool not celebrating it's membership roster or racing success.

 

[Gospel of Judas]

8 hours ago, Reefton said:

I run a racing club and I am hardly in a 'privileged position' doing so.  On the contrary from my perspective having to continue doing it is a pain in the a... but there is nobody to take over.  What I am in though is a club which was rolling along, minding it's own business, keeping it's head above water, not costing the industry one cent and providing opportunities for stakeholders and product for the punters around NZ and, to a lesser extent, the world.   Whats more we have  a faithful band of regular attenders to whom we are extremely grateful for making our day thoroughly enjoyable.

We had never taken one cent from the industry to maintain or build our infrastructure, we obtained our land ourselves well over a century ago and we spend no money on staff or consultants since it is all voluntary labour by our committee and locals.  Our course is freehold and our debt is nil but the likes of Saundry and Co have advised us we owe our very existence to the NZ Racing industry and that the NZ Racing industry is entitled to control us and take our hard earned assets.  A little ironic that neither of the two Aussie's Messara and Saundry would even know where Reefton was but they know all about the reasons it is there.

If they were running Aussie racing they would be trying to shut Warnambool not celebrating it's membership roster or racing success.

 

Notice too all the well run country clubs got no debt and plenty of assets. Why Winston Peters under the direction of his donnors from leading Waikato and North Island Racing interests. Wanted all the assets of the well run and few, To fund the many and poorer. Because poorer, want more money, for we egos. All about status and what little power they have! in general scheme of things.

[Reefton]

6 hours ago, Gospel of Judas said:

Notice too all the well run country clubs got no debt and plenty of assets. Why Winston Peters under the direction of his donnors from leading Waikato and North Island Racing interests. Wanted all the assets of the well run and few, To fund the many and poorer. Because poorer, want more money, for we egos. All about status and what little power they have! in general scheme of things.

Exactly!

Those big Clubs that the Waikato faction want to prop up with the hard earned wealth of the regions.  They have had billions of industry money spent on their assets and infrastructure, never looked after their property and pissed billions up against the wall on stakes they could not afford and in any case were hugely subsidised by the money earned by the small clubs.

In that more good news post I put up last night have a look at the associated story(to the right on the link) about the foal crop this year.  Those Waikato Breeders are looking down the barrel of a grim reality.

 

 

[Huey]

7 hours ago, Gospel of Judas said:

Notice too all the well run country clubs got no debt and plenty of assets. Why Winston Peters under the direction of his donnors from leading Waikato and North Island Racing interests. Wanted all the assets of the well run and few, To fund the many and poorer. Because poorer, want more money, for we egos. All about status and what little power they have! in general scheme of things.

I'm not sure they are robbing the asset rich for the poor, I think they are robbing them for the rich. Many of those mentioned in the articles in your previous posts.