NZ Metro Nominations very poor for Sunday 18 July.

[Chief Stipe]

 

 

[paleface adios]

it is winter time that's why nominations are small plus to many meetings Addington . junior drivers champ noms very disappointing for them . should there series been run say 6 weeks ago ? before a lot of horses have gone out for a winter spell . I guess hrnz and woodham know what they are doing in the programming of race meeting

[Brodie]

Doesnt make sense not to nominate when it would be a penalty free win!

Maybe Canterbury trainers dont want to get a North Island junior on?

[Davis]

50 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Doesnt make sense not to nominate when it would be a penalty free win!

Maybe Canterbury trainers dont want to get a North Island junior on?

Yes, I agree mate. It doesn't make sense that trainers are not supporting the junior races that are penalty free. It is not surprising though and nothing new. I don't understand the mindset of many trainers. Horses nominated for the junior races are in many cases going to have a better driver than they usually do. Let's see... we could have a great young driver on our horse, Sarah O'Reilly, Tomlinson sisters, J. Morrison, B Hope.... no, let's stick with our usual driver that has won three races in the past five seasons. Crazy! No wonder harness racing is going down the gurgler. 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Davis
spelling errors

[Brodie]

What was the criteria in the North to qualify for the N.I. Team?

One of the drivers qualified for the N.I. has not won a race in 2 seasons of driving and over 80 drives!

Not trying to be smart and I am sure the young fellah can drive a bit, but does seem odd doesnt it?

 

[Taku Umanga]

1 hour ago, Brodie said:

What was the criteria in the North to qualify for the N.I. Team?

One of the drivers qualified for the N.I. has not won a race in 2 seasons of driving and over 80 drives!

Not trying to be smart and I am sure the young fellah can drive a bit, but does seem odd doesnt it?

 

Same as for the South ... https://infohorse.hrnz.co.nz/dochr/hrnz/Guidelines-2021-Junior-Champs.pdf

[Brodie]

Taku, does show then just how dire the situation is in the North Island for harness racing unfortunately.

There is very little future in the industry for many of participants once they are out of the junior ranks!

You have to be very dedicated nowadays and prepared to battle financially if you want to stay in the business!

How can the North be prosperous when there are next to no one coming into the training and junior driving ranks?

 

[Davis]

10 hours ago, Brodie said:

Taku, does show then just how dire the situation is in the North Island for harness racing unfortunately.

There is very little future in the industry for many of participants once they are out of the junior ranks!

You have to be very dedicated nowadays and prepared to battle financially if you want to stay in the business!

How can the North be prosperous when there are next to no one coming into the training and junior driving ranks?

 

Alicia Harrison with 18 wins and Luke Whittaker 16 wins are the top NI juniors. Harrison seems to be a good driver given the few opportunities she gets. But both Harrison and Whittaker are a long way behind the top South Island  juniors John Morrison, 57 wins and Sarah O'Reilly 51 wins. 

Worrying times up North mate!

Edited July 13, 2021 by Davis

[Brodie]

13 minutes ago, Davis said:

Alicia Harrison with 18 wins and Luke Whittaker 16 wins are the top NI juniors. Harrison seems to be a good driver given the few opportunities she gets. But both Harrison and Whittaker are a long way behind the top South Island  juniors John Morrison, 57 wins and Sarah O'Reilly 51 wins. 

Worrying times up North mate!

You are correct!

How do we get the industry out of the doldrums in the North?

Not an easy one, there has to be a path for young ones to be enticed into a career in racing!

There is not one so unsure how it can be turned around?

[the galah]

17 hours ago, Brodie said:

What was the criteria in the North to qualify for the N.I. Team?

One of the drivers qualified for the N.I. has not won a race in 2 seasons of driving and over 80 drives!

Not trying to be smart and I am sure the young fellah can drive a bit, but does seem odd doesnt it?

 

Thats an amazing stat isn't it. I never realised K bublitz stats were so bad. 82 drives and not one win. Then you have N delany. Doesn't he work for B purdon? Hes only had 2 wins in 88 drives this season. Either these fellas are getting some awful drives,or they aren't going too good.Perhaps thats part of the reason why the current series struggled for entries.Like i've said previously. There are horses being discarded because they are no longer competitive at the rating 40 level. There needs to be a handicapping system where uncompetitive 1  or 2 win horses on r 40 can drop back further and run against non win horses. Those races would have the junior driver conditioned concession  attached to them for those that had already won a race..You only need another 15 or so of those horses to have enough to add another race per week,and give the less successful drivers more opportunities. Its common sense to me. Just run them for lower stakes.

Edited July 13, 2021 by the galah

[Dougie]

On 13/07/2021 at 8:16 AM, paleface adios said:

it is winter time that's why nominations are small plus to many meetings Addington . junior drivers champ noms very disappointing for them . should there series been run say 6 weeks ago ? before a lot of horses have gone out for a winter spell . I guess hrnz and woodham know what they are doing in the programming of race meeting

Great point re the juniors scheduling, I know the south has a winter break but no racing in the South Island south of CHCH for 4 weeks after Forbury last week, as others have mentioned what do owners do?? pay $2000 or so to keep their horse in work or give it a spell for an xmas return. 

Just look at the exported horses list for the last month or so and I see Phil W has just lost the best 3 trotters from his stable to Australia, a huge amount of horses leaving the country lately and absolutely zero chance of horse numbers getting any better when they're still racing for $7000-$9000 on a consistent basis.

[Brodie]

33 minutes ago, Dougie said:

Great point re the juniors scheduling, I know the south has a winter break but no racing in the South Island south of CHCH for 4 weeks after Forbury last week, as others have mentioned what do owners do?? pay $2000 or so to keep their horse in work or give it a spell for an xmas return. 

Just look at the exported horses list for the last month or so and I see Phil W has just lost the best 3 trotters from his stable to Australia, a huge amount of horses leaving the country lately and absolutely zero chance of horse numbers getting any better when they're still racing for $7000-$9000 on a consistent basis.

Ozzie harness racing is full of ex Kiwi horses in most states!

Horses met their mark over here go to Oz and next minute they have won 5 or 6 in a row and are rated very good horses.

NZ owners tend to have bred to far better stallions over the years than the Ozzies have, as Ozzies tend to have bred to substandard stallions.

[the galah]

6 hours ago, Dougie said:

Great point re the juniors scheduling, I know the south has a winter break but no racing in the South Island south of CHCH for 4 weeks after Forbury last week, as others have mentioned what do owners do?? pay $2000 or so to keep their horse in work or give it a spell for an xmas return. 

Just look at the exported horses list for the last month or so and I see Phil W has just lost the best 3 trotters from his stable to Australia, a huge amount of horses leaving the country lately and absolutely zero chance of horse numbers getting any better when they're still racing for $7000-$9000 on a consistent basis.

Does it really cost $2000 a month to have a horse trained nowdays.Thats about $70 a day. If thats the case then its easy to see why there are less owners out there. Sounds way too much. O.k. the all stars owners may be happy to pay a lot more given their deep pockets and acceptance of all the extras that go with having a horse trained there,but i can't see most owners being likely to continue with the lesser successful trainers if the figure you have quoted is right. Also why don't hrnz have a website where owners can go to get the approximate training fees of any trainer who wishes to disclose what they charge. Shouldn't there be not be more transparency around this subject.

You mention stakes of $7000-$9000 being off putting. Obviously it is a factor,but how important really is an extra say $1000 a race. Take queensland for example. You can't help but notice the  fields those $2600 races at marburg on sundays,or those $4000 races at albion park during the week get. They seem to be doing ok.Is that not because they have a better handicapping system that retains horse participation at each level.

And how much is the current lack of horse population a result of hrnz operating a handicapping system a few years back that drove the average participant away. Remember the races where the 6 and 7 win 3 year olds would get a penalty free win ,whereas the 4year and older 1 win horses in the same race were given a penalty for the very same race.Hrnz failure to recognise that pandering to the elite at the expense of the bulk of participants,was always going to have long term negative consequences.You can't undo the consequences that previous dumb policy had on current participation.

[Dougie]

3 minutes ago, the galah said:

Does it really cost $2000 a month to have a horse trained nowdays.Thats about $70 a day. If thats the case then its easy to see why there are less owners out there. Sounds way too much. O.k. the all stars owners may be happy to pay a lot more given their deep pockets and acceptance of all the extras that go with having a horse trained there,but i can't see most owners being likely to continue with the lesser successful trainers if the figure you have quoted is right. Also why don't hrnz have a website where owners can go to get the approximate training fees of any trainer who wishes to disclose what they charge. Shouldn't there be not be more transparency around this subject.

You mention stakes of $7000-$9000 being off putting. Obviously it is a factor,but how important really is an extra say $1000 a race. Take queensland for example. You can't help but notice the  fields those $2600 races at marburg on sundays,or those $4000 races at albion park during the week get. They seem to be doing ok.Is that not because they have a better handicapping system that retains horse participation at each level.

And how much is the current lack of horse population a result of hrnz operating a handicapping system a few years back that drove the average participant away. Remember the races where the 6 and 7 win 3 year olds would get a penalty free win ,whereas the 4year and older 1 win horses in the same race were given a penalty for the very same race.Hrnz failure to recognise that pandering to the elite at the expense of the bulk of participants,was always going to have long term negative consequences.You can't undo the consequences that previous dumb policy had on current participation.

Handicapping and scheduling, not sure how much different it is now compared to 2/3 years ago but how often was a 1 win horse in Canterbury already up against a far superior Purdon horse with no chance of winning and then within weeks was sold on to Aussie... not Purdons fault his horses were far superior but what's an owner to do battle for a chance. of a small return when the horse races/go to southland for a start and better chance of winning/sell overseas.

Trotters in NZ are slow to mature and most of our trot racing is done around the 2600m starts but how often to you see 1980 mobile at Addington for 1/2 win horses get a small field after most of them have battled out of 2600m maiden races and lack genuine zip but the club constantly program's this type of race.

You look at Friday night race 4 at Addington, Sheeza Artist only 1 start for 1 win v Aveross Rustler 210 starts for 16 wins, I'm buggered if I know if that's good or bad but it is a handicap race 40-55 rating but only 1 horse is off 10 meters .

QLD good example of mile and shorter races with a large horse population able to race twice a week if they so desire and in reality they run pretty average times so horses aren't flogged so to speak.

 

[Gammalite]

36 minutes ago, the galah said:

7 hours ago, Dougie said:

 

Does it really cost $2000 a month to have a horse trained nowdays.Thats about $70 a day.

On your NZ harness racing website it shows Steve Telfer ( a fairly handy trainer) advertising at $55 + GST so that's like $60/day

so fairly close to your 2k per month. and as Dougie is saying the short course racing in QLD means you can race once a week all year round without 'flattening' your horse like 2400-2700 m races do , where they work hard in the run sometimes. Just sit and sprint much kinder on the horses ( even though Brodster not liking it) The really 'Slow horses' can still pay their way , which is important obviously for the owners. You end up with 50 starts per year a lot more than NZ. but roughly 50k average earnings from that many starts v the 22k ($60 per day) training fees. so a small profit from persistency ? lol... hopefully some fun had too.

[the galah]

Your right. You can't blame purdon or some others for advocating for a handicapping system that had favored their horses and connections. Its what he should have been doing. Its just the consequences of taking so long to change an unfair handicapping system can't be changed.Many gave up in frustration,which of course ultimately lead to less horses being bred.

And you may have noticed a few moths ago they changed it back to the help the young horses again.Ask yourself this. Why should a horse like dashtothebeach be rated 55. Its had 5 wins from 21 starts. Then you have skiddale who running on friday who has had only 2 wins from 15 starts rated the same. How is that fair? Its not.When will they ever learn that just because a group is vocal,does not make them right. 

[Gammalite]

5 minutes ago, the galah said:

Your right. You can't blame purdon or some others for advocating for a handicapping system that had favored their horses and connections. Its what he should have been doing. Its just the consequences of taking so long to change an unfair handicapping system can't be changed.Many gave up in frustration,which of course ultimately lead to less horses being bred.

And you may have noticed a few moths ago they changed it back to the help the young horses again.Ask yourself this. Why should a horse like dashtothebeach be rated 55. Its had 5 wins from 21 starts. Then you have skiddale who running on friday who has had only 2 wins from 15 starts rated the same. How is that fair? Its not.When will they ever learn that just because a group is vocal,does not make them right. 

number of wins was fairly predictable in the past, C1, then C2 etc, but still led to problems like being Open Class as a three yearold on occasion. so that's not great.

The best handicapping is done on times run , and where you win. obviously Manawatu form isn't the same as an Auckland win.

I think horses with a 1.57 mile rate should be pitted against similar paced horses these days (from their last so many 'x' amount of starts, maybe 5 or something) 

This allows older horses to 'come back ' a few notches as you can't expect them to come off long handicaps from wins they had years ago as a 3 or 4 year old. 

[Unhinged]

As a syndicater we allow 2500 per month, on average over a year that figure isn't to far off the mark.  That includes everything including travel which can add up rapidly if you are chasing age group race's. Anything not used does get paid back to syndicate members. As for racing over shorter distances that's exactly what we are now breeding with our American speed sires. The average number of starts for our horses is just over ten times a year, bit of a shame we haven't got many tracks designed for mile racing.

 

 

[Brodie]

29 minutes ago, Unhinged said:

As a syndicater we allow 2500 per month, on average over a year that figure isn't to far off the mark.  That includes everything including travel which can add up rapidly if you are chasing age group race's. Anything not used does get paid back to syndicate members. As for racing over shorter distances that's exactly what we are now breeding with our American speed sires. The average number of starts for our horses is just over ten times a year, bit of a shame we haven't got many tracks designed for mile racing.

 

 

Unhinged, are you serious about mile racing??

As boring as being at a Labour Party pissup!

There is buggerall new people being attracted to harness racing now and introduce more miles  and you are going to lose more.

We need variety in our racing not boring miles like  they have in the U.S.

Thank christ the mile at Addington is where it is or we would be in trouble.

What happened to the 1390m they had at Rangiora, why arent they being continued?

Why not, because it is just blatantly stupid and unappealing!

Edited July 14, 2021 by Brodie

[paleface adios]

1 minute ago, Brodie said:

Unhinged, are you serious about mike racing??

 

what's mike racing mate ? is that something to do with sheep

[Brodie]

2 minutes ago, paleface adios said:

what's mike racing mate ? is that something to do with sheep

Lol where does it say mike racing?

[Brodie]

Just now, Brodie said:

Lol where does it say mike racing?

U on the money too quick.

I got big fingers

[paleface adios]

6 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Lol where does it say mike racing?

lol 

[the galah]

 

1 hour ago, Brodie said:

Unhinged, are you serious about mile racing??

As boring as being at a Labour Party pissup!

There is buggerall new people being attracted to harness racing now and introduce more miles  and you are going to lose more.

We need variety in our racing not boring miles like  they have in the U.S.

Thank christ the mile at Addington is where it is or we would be in trouble.

What happened to the 1390m they had at Rangiora, why arent they being continued?

Why not, because it is just blatantly stupid and unappealing!

I agree with you on the mile racing brodie.It doesn't appeal to me as a punter.

And from a spectator perspective,even worse are tracks like ashburton,whose track is not designed to encourage people to attend.Your always too far away and its inside a galloping track.  Menangle looks like its been designed to encourage the public to stay at home. The public want to get close to the action.Thats part of the appeal of grass tracks. People attend one off days like oamakau,i went there once,big crowd,but given i was there to watch the races ,i wouldn't go again as even against the rails its was impossible to get a decent look at the on track action because you weren't allowed anywhere near it. How many of those that turn up for that day get an experience that makes them want to come back to the non holiday race meetings? And if mile racing is a successful strategy,hows harness racing in the usa going?

Edited July 14, 2021 by the galah

[Brodie]

If mile racing is so great, why dont we have the NZ Cup and the Dominion run over one mile??
People that support mile racing in NZ are not thinking about what is best to attract new people or not serious 

People that are new to racing and go oncourse dont want to come out of the bar and then get a race that takes less than 2 minutes to run!!

Mile racing should be spasmodic at best  in NZ going forward as Black Print is so over rated nowadays as most horses are capable of getting it!

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Brodie