Tim Williams has a great new Gig!

[Chief Stipe]

 It is now public knowledge that Tim Williams is joining Steve & Amanda Telfer at Stonewall Stud when they set up in CHCH. Tim starts in September, they have brought JW Smolenski's Weedons stable as well as a number of neighbouring properties. They plan to have 40 or 50 horses in the South Island. Initially they will train out of the Dancingonmoonlight stables until the new stables are built in Weedons.

[Chief Stipe]

Huge surge in numbers for Telfers

22 July 2021 , News

by Dave Di Somma, Harness News Desk

The Telfer tsunami is coming, with Stonewall Stud and Stables having just put an additional 36 horses into training.

One of the country's biggest and most successful operations expects to have around 80 horses in work, spanning both islands.

Stonewall’s brother-sister partnership of Steve and Amanda Telfer are currently third on the national training premiership with 63 wins, behind Robert Dunn on 122 and Michael House on 77.

Among the stand-out performers have been B D Joe, Enjoy Me, Darling Me and Dance Time.

And reinforcements are on their way big time.

Of the 36 new horses, “about a third we bought at the weanling sales, a third at this year’s yearling sales and a third we have bred ourselves,” says Steve Telfer.

“There are a lot of babies.”

Among them is Delightful Reality who Stonewall Stud bought at this year’s NZB Yearling Sale at Karaka for $300,000. She’s a Bettors Delight filly from Western Australian Oaks winner Major Reality.

“We’re just starting with her,” says Telfer, ”she’s broken in nicely and has great manners.”

But like a lot of young stock it’s now wait and see - “a lot of the horses will be going to the trials in mid August – September.”

While they're based at Ardmore in South Auckland, expansion to the South Island is well advanced, with work currently underway to re-build Jack Smolenski’s old barn in Canterbury.

It will be the permanent base for Amanda Telfer, along with stable foreman David White and top driver Tim Williams.

“There are so many opportunities down south.”

In the meantime the team will operate out of the Dancingonmoonlight stables in North Canterbury. The upmarket property also has retired New Zealand Cup champions Christian Cullen, Monkey King and Baileys Dream on site.

“We should kick off September 1 with 12 horses there,” says Steve Telfer.

Of his dozens of juveniles two have Telfer particularly enthused, Mitch and Obsession.

Mitch is a two-year-old colt, by Art Major out of Cheer The Lady, who was second at Alexandra Park on March 6 to Arden’s Horizon.

“He’s only had the one start and was narrowly beaten and is 3-4 weeks away from the trials.”

Obsession (Captain Treacherous – Pure Magic) is a two-year-old filly with one win in two starts, downing Montana Glory in the NZB Standardbred 2YO Pace at Alexandra Park on March 12.

“I’m excited to see what they can do.”

[Chief Stipe]

If the Christchurch stables are anything like their Clevedon ones then they are sure not sparing any expense!

From the Coresteel Facebook page:

[Gammalite]

There you go ! some serious opposition for Cullen's and Dunn's then.

and BD JOE with a jewels Win over Krug

and ENJOY ME won the 3 year old Sires Group 1 win over Bettor Twist on New Years eve , as well. 

That Sure shows they know what they're doing in preparing horses.!!! Best of luck to Telfer's and Williams. 

 

[Brodie]

Will be good to have another professional stable in Chch area.

Great opportunity for Tim Williams and I am sure he will be a huge asset for Stonewall Chch as they will have plenty of horses.

[the galah]

I read the article on the telfers and thought this is what nz harness racing is becoming. The bigger stables like the all stars,dunns and telfers continue to have increasing numbers on their books,while overall participation drops.Anyone who thinks that is a good thing for the future of the sport is mistaken and oblivious to the difference  between what is good and bad.Its no fault of the aforementioned,but it is definitely a bad trend and not a good indication as regards the future of harness racing.

Edited July 24, 2021 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

10 minutes ago, the galah said:

The bigger stables like the all stars,dunns and telfers continue to have increasing numbers on their books,while overall participation drops.

How do you know that "overall participation drops"?

[Gammalite]

17 minutes ago, the galah said:

The bigger stables like the all stars,dunns and telfers continue to have increasing numbers on their books,

All stars have none now, Cullen had 1 horse past 2 weeks racing so no increase there , Dunn's do they still have a Pukekohe Barn? they seem to have the same number of wins year to year so must be same number of horses in training.?? 

Telfer's look the only one with a significant increase you describe, and that's because of the re-structure.

Doubt any of the Canterbury folk will be scared off. and as Brodster says , will be good to have a big professional stable in the Chch area that can cope with a fair numbers of horses. 

[the galah]

31 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

How do you know that "overall participation drops"?

So thats your take from my post. Not that i am wrong,just ask me how do i know overall participation is dropping? 

 

18 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

All stars have none now, Cullen had 1 horse past 2 weeks racing so no increase there , Dunn's do they still have a Pukekohe Barn? they seem to have the same number of wins year to year so must be same number of horses in training.?? 

Telfer's look the only one with a significant increase you describe, and that's because of the re-structure.

Doubt any of the Canterbury folk will be scared off. and as Brodster says , will be good to have a big professional stable in the Chch area that can cope with a fair numbers of horses. 

Whats any different from the all stars runners end of season participation numbers to any previous season. Are you aware of how many all star horses are pre trained elsewhere,and of the numbers waiting to get into that barn.Likewise the dunns.What does that tell you of how many owners view and don't want to support  the small time trainers. 

What do you think of tasmania harness racing and the domination of the big stables.From memory you've posted more than once about its negative impacts on that states harness racing. Hows the breeding industry going,with its ever dwindling number of studs and domination by a handful of studs. Do you actually think its a good thing that the bigger studs have got bigger,while the smaller players are no longer financially viable.

Harness racing is no different to any sport. Without a strong base things become too top heavy.Thats reality.

I've commented on what the telfer stable reflects the future holds.

Edited July 24, 2021 by the galah

[Gammalite]

8 minutes ago, the galah said:

So thats your take from my post. Not that i am wrong,just ask me how do i know overall participation is dropping? 

 

Whats any different from the all stars runners end of season participation numbers to any previous season. Are you aware of how many all star horses are pre trained elsewhere,and of the numbers waiting to get into that barn.Likewise the dunns.What does that tell you of how many owners view and don't want to support  the small time trainers. 

What do you think of tasmania harness racing and the domination of the big stables.From memory you've posted more than once about its negative impacts on that states harness racing. Hows the breeding industry going,with its ever dwindling number of studs and domination by a handful of studs. Do you actually think its a good thing that the bigger studs have got bigger,while the smaller players are no longer financially viable.

Harness racing is no different to any sport. Without a strong base things become too top heavy.Thats reality.

I've commented on what the telfer stable reflects the future holds.

Definitely NOT a fan of multiple runners in a race, but it happens. Telfer often with a few in the north, (and Bernie Hackett in the trots) and sometimes the things happen we don't like . e.g Temporale , Dance Time , even Beyond Words v Amazing Dream lol.....

YOLE in Tasmania , is cheap. Good for cheap owners. Terrible for punters. wouldn't bet a Tassie race with your money !! lol. (wouldn't want to lose it on you)

Dixon has 80 in training going roughly at the most. so generally close to lead like YOLE in premiership. Hard to win though . last Sat and then Tuesday , just 2 x 3rds from 18 runners. and Brodster thinks it's easy in Oz ??? lol .............

Telfer's ran ad's on the WEB-site for $55 a day training for many months !! you advertise, you DESERVE results !!!!!!!!!! good on em !!! If the smaller trainers want more horses THEY NEED to WOO owners like Telfers have ? and get some yearling sale purchases , etc.

Which stables are short of horses you are thinking of ?

[Chief Stipe]

30 minutes ago, the galah said:

So thats your take from my post. Not that i am wrong,just ask me how do i know overall participation is dropping?

Well is it dropping in your opinion?  If so where is the evidence?  Or are you predicting the future?

 

[Rangatira]

26 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Or are you predicting the future?

TAB would love to get hold of the brodsters ball.

I hear they would be prepared to gradually lift his restrictions once it was safely in their possession. 

[the galah]

57 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Well is it dropping in your opinion?  If so where is the evidence?  Or are you predicting the future?

 

I read a woodlands stud article,which i have just looked up again.i assume it is accurate. It said individual mares served as follows     2016/17  2584

                                                                                           2017/18  2359

                                                                                            2018/19  2333

                                                                                            2019/20  2193

                                                                                             2020/21  1969.

So its obvious there is less being bred,less being owned and therefore available to be raced and trained.   

And if the the bigger stables like telfers have increased numbers at the same time as there being less horses available,then common sense says that there is decreased participation levels of both licenceholders,owners and breeders. 

 Anyone who thinks the telfers having increased numbers is a positive sign for the future of the industry is ignoring the big picture.

Edited July 24, 2021 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

And if the the bigger stables like telfers have increased numbers at the same time as there being less horses available,then common sense says that there is decreased participation levels of both licenceholders,owners and breeders. 

 

But the cause isn't the emergence of "big stables" - correlation doesn't equal causation!

You have no idea what numbers make up the Syndication of big stable horses.  Is it not possible that there are more people with less percentage shares. This has happened in the Thoroughbred industry as it is the only way that people can afford to have an interest.

1 hour ago, the galah said:

 Anyone who thinks the telfers having increased numbers is a positive sign for the future of the industry is ignoring the big picture.

The cause in the decline are increasing costs and declining returns NOT the creation of "big" stables.  Those stables have economy of scale.  So shouldn't the focus of attention be directed towards the TAB and HRNZ?  Afterall it is they that have the greatest influence on returns to the industry.

[the galah]

4 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

But the cause isn't the emergence of "big stables" - correlation doesn't equal causation!

The cause in the decline are increasing costs and declining returns.  

i haven't said the big stables are the cause. I have said the increased numbers in stables like telfer is a symptom of the drop in numbers! 

[Chief Stipe]

10 hours ago, the galah said:

i haven't said the big stables are the cause. I have said the increased numbers in stables like telfer is a symptom of the drop in numbers! 

Then you'll agree that we should be lauding these big stables investing their own hard earned into the industry.

Any criticism for wider declining participation and revenue in the industry should be directed at the likes of: George, Castles, Mackenzie, Saundry, Woodham, Hughes?

[the galah]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Then you'll agree that we should be lauding these big stables investing their own hard earned into the industry.

Any criticism for wider declining participation and revenue in the industry should be directed at the likes of: George, Castles, Mackenzie, Saundry, Woodham, Hughes?

Your the one saying its revenue. I believe there are many other factors just as relevant to speeding up the decline in numbers participating,which are not being addressed..

Basic stuff.I'll give one obvious example.Say you want to train a horse,where can you do it? 

Racecourses are normally closed shops run by people with no interest whatsoever in accommodating new participants.I've previously pointed out that too many racecourses would rather lease ground to committee members or relations  for farming than have horses trained there.Have you ever contacted one of these clubs.I actually did the other day. Third time. Same response,i'll get back to you .Of course they never do.Also have you not seen or heard of the infighting that goes on at some of those tracks?.They talk the talk but never walk the walk.  So what next. If your in canterbury,you have to pay $650-700,000 for a 10 hectare block within 30 minutes of christchurch.Whos going to do that?   Don't say you need to get off your arse and ask around. I can tell you from an experience i had about 5 years ago that trainers,big and small,have little interest in having others train from their facilities even if they had spaces available. I don't blame them,just point out the reality.Thats in canterbury where the industry is still relatively strong.

Its happening throughout the country.Answer this. If you were from auckland or one of its outer suburbs and you wanted to train a couple of horses where are you going to do it? People go on and on about the lack of horses racing at auckland and point out how few trainers there are,yet never talk about the most obvious thing,which is if i want to train where can i do it near where i live. Well the answer is you can't,so go get another job or hobby.

What does hrnz do to help co ordinate linking those wanting to use training facilities with the rare example of someone having them available. Nothing .

It shouldn't take einstein to realise what i have just said is linked to why the big trainers are getting bigger and the small trainers are disappearing.Thats only one aspect. I could go on about others issues that need addressed to stop the decline,but i can't be bothered.

Edited July 24, 2021 by the galah

[Brodie]

Reality is that the no. of owners and trainers is declining in NZ.

Reality is that the no. Of new punters on harness is declining.

Reality is that the opportunity to have a horse pay its way is declining!

Reality is that the TAB is not treating punters equally and that is having a detrimental effect on racing not just punting wise, also owning wise!

Reality is that harness needs to address all of these issues or things are going to continue to go south.

[Rangatira]

3 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Reality is that harness needs to address all of these issues or things are going to continue to go south.

Has your ball locked in the race of the day on the 2nd Tuesday in November 2030 as the Halfmoon Bay / Oban Trotting Cup ?

[the galah]

Look at nz racing today.One galloping meeting and one harness meeting.Oamaru  gallops starts 4 minutes late so right at this moment you have the galloping race being run at the same time as the harness race is being run.Only  two horse racing meetings and thats how they plan it. How moronic is that?Who are the people who make these decisions.

Edited July 25, 2021 by the galah

[Gammalite]

8 minutes ago, the galah said:

Look at nz racing today.One galloping meeting and one harness meeting.Oamaru  gallops starts 4 minutes late so right at this moment you have the galloping race being run at the same time as the harness race is being run.Only  two horse racing meetings and thats how they plan it. How moronic is that?Who are the people who make these decisions.

Good grief , that does seem poor indeed for the punters wanting to see both races.

The unavailability of training facilities is interesting arguement. Seems with the cost of real estate through the ceiling NZ and Oz you just have to use/re-develop current facilities , just like Telfers are doing. and Pukekohe Training in the north had many barns around the near streets, so if numbers are dropping in the North, wouldn't there be Vacant boxes/ barns for lease.? 

I can see No Problem with Telfer going big in numbers of horses trained. This means that you can train at a reduced rate , because you make a quid from the large numbers. AND as Brodie wants , New owners can come on-board with shares and some will punt as well, so Must be a GOOD thing??   I do say Yole is dominating Tassie harness with having Too Many horses ( crikey!!!, He has 50 racing today at Launceston) but if Chris Waller can have 700 gallopers on his books , it must be a proven Model to use ?

Can only mean one thing . MORE people are involved . A good thing, owners ,young horsepeople etc etc

now if only the TAB would take the bets lol..............

[the galah]

16 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Good grief , that does seem poor indeed for the punters wanting to see both races.

The unavailability of training facilities is interesting arguement. Seems with the cost of real estate through the ceiling NZ and Oz you just have to use/re-develop current facilities , just like Telfers are doing. and Pukekohe Training in the north had many barns around the near streets, so if numbers are dropping in the North, wouldn't there be Vacant boxes/ barns for lease.? 

I can see No Problem with Telfer going big in numbers of horses trained. This means that you can train at a reduced rate , because you make a quid from the large numbers. AND as Brodie wants , New owners can come on-board with shares and some will punt as well, so Must be a GOOD thing??   I do say Yole is dominating Tassie harness with having Too Many horses ( crikey!!!, He has 50 racing today at Launceston) but if Chris Waller can have 700 gallopers on his books , it must be a proven Model to use ?

Can only mean one thing . MORE people are involved . A good thing, owners ,young horsepeople etc etc

now if only the TAB would take the bets lol..............

Is pukekohe the same as franklin? Isn't the auckland club selling franklin land after having it re zoned then re leasing it back until they have purchased some land further out in the country. It said in their agm from last year it was doing that in consultation with pukekohe trainers. All so as to lessen the huge financial hole they dug for themselves. I can't imagine anyone from 30 years ago in that area who has given up, still hanging on to their training facilities to rent to trainers,when it would be worth so much if sold.

Edited July 25, 2021 by the galah

[Gammalite]

23 minutes ago, the galah said:

Is pukekohe the same as franklin? Isn't the auckland club selling franklin land after having it re zoned then re leasing it back until they have purchased some land further out in the country. It said in their agm from last year it was doing that in consultation with pukekohe trainers. All so as to lessen the huge financial hole they dug for themselves. I can't imagine anyone from 30 years ago in that area who has given up, still hanging on to their training facilities to rent to trainers,when it would be worth so much if sold.

Yes the Franklin Park training centre managed by Karen Blanchard. was always the most important North Island hub. 

It's getting sold you say ?? that will be a critical blow to North Island trotting. 70 years + that facility been there and around 40 trainers listed as users. (and a further 20-30 out of town trainers , who use it when visiting for feature meetings.)

Could be part of the Telfer Plan too !!. (shift to Canterbury) maybe they can see what's coming by the sound of it. 

A poor way to dig out of the Alexandra Park developement disaster. (wonder what happened with INSURANCE with the failed contractors on that developement?? musn't of paid up)

I started out at Takanini/Papakura (much closer to Auckland than Pukekohe) I saw all the fabulous trainers at Takanini training gallops track , McKee, Verner, Jillings etc, and THEN the Auckland racing Club SOLD OFF the training facility in early 2000's !!!. what a shock that was , and led to countless re-location disasters. .... real estate gained , horses lost forever ...awful.

very sad seeing the amazing places that so many great horses and trainers/drivers / jockeys strutted their stuff just Disappear.

 

[Davis]

On 7/24/2021 at 6:17 PM, the galah said:

I read the article on the telfers and thought this is what nz harness racing is becoming. The bigger stables like the all stars,dunns and telfers continue to have increasing numbers on their books,while overall participation drops.Anyone who thinks that is a good thing for the future of the sport is mistaken and oblivious to the difference  between what is good and bad.Its no fault of the aforementioned,but it is definitely a bad trend and not a good indication as regards the future of harness racing.

I think you make some good and valid points Galah. There have always been big stables around, the likes of G. Noble, J. Smolenski, R. Purdon and Ces Donald, so that is nothing new. 

I am interested in how the Telfers fare in the South Island. Their South Island training base, ex Jack Smolenski, has already produced many winners, including a few champions. With the upgrades it should be a model establishment to rival the All Stars training base in Levi Rd? Good luck to them for investing in harness racing in the south and believing in themselves. 

Whether it will be for the good of harness racing long term is another story?

[the galah]

On 25/07/2021 at 10:40 AM, the galah said:

Your the one saying its revenue. I believe there are many other factors just as relevant to speeding up the decline in numbers participating,which are not being addressed..

Basic stuff.I'll give one obvious example.Say you want to train a horse,where can you do it? 

Racecourses are normally closed shops run by people with no interest whatsoever in accommodating new participants.I've previously pointed out that too many racecourses would rather lease ground to committee members or relations  for farming than have horses trained there.Have you ever contacted one of these clubs.I actually did the other day. Third time. Same response,i'll get back to you .Of course they never do.Also have you not seen or heard of the infighting that goes on at some of those tracks?.They talk the talk but never walk the walk.  So what next. If your in canterbury,you have to pay $650-700,000 for a 10 hectare block within 30 minutes of christchurch.Whos going to do that?   Don't say you need to get off your arse and ask around. I can tell you from an experience i had about 5 years ago that trainers,big and small,have little interest in having others train from their facilities even if they had spaces available. I don't blame them,just point out the reality.Thats in canterbury where the industry is still relatively strong.

Its happening throughout the country.Answer this. If you were from auckland or one of its outer suburbs and you wanted to train a couple of horses where are you going to do it? People go on and on about the lack of horses racing at auckland and point out how few trainers there are,yet never talk about the most obvious thing,which is if i want to train where can i do it near where i live. Well the answer is you can't,so go get another job or hobby.

What does hrnz do to help co ordinate linking those wanting to use training facilities with the rare example of someone having them available. Nothing .

It shouldn't take einstein to realise what i have just said is linked to why the big trainers are getting bigger and the small trainers are disappearing.Thats only one aspect. I could go on about others issues that need addressed to stop the decline,but i can't be bothered.

So now even the big trainers can't find training facilities.

The latest story on hrnz is that Josh dickie is quitting NZ and heading to victoria.Why? Well it seems the main reason is because he can't find any suitable training facilities now the training establishment he was leasing is being sold.Whats that going to do to ATC field size?

I've being saying this for years. If HRNZ and clubs like the ATC can't even have a plan to address such an essential for the industry to continue,then its downhill slide will start to spiral out of control.

Why has this issue been around for so long without being addressed is beyond me. Are people are so out of touch with reality,or have they just ignored it? The same issue applies in many areas,wheres the plan to stop the decline of training facilities.Or has the horse already bolted.

Edited July 29, 2021 by the galah