NZ cup carnival in the future

[Joe Bloggs]

Many years ago I went to Caulfield to back my fav horse of the time, he was named Bit Of A Skite, he was ridden by the now trainer Gerald Ryan, he won, he held the Caulfield track record for 1000m and 2000m, he was no champion but a super good horse, Winx couldn't do that Chief, times can be very misleading, but Winx raced on Regumate also, I bet Showgate didn't get that help, plus she went over seas.....Winx was cuddled, cleverly as she was so superior to all the locals, but I'll finish by saying IMO Sunline would have smacked her arse, and Showgate wasn't far behind Sunline, again IMO......it's good to be able to say we saw them all, these young 30 something know-all journos didn't see those grand horses of the past, that's how you can rank them....from what you have witnessed, and the two best horses I saw in my life...so far are Frankel and Kingston Town, with an American horse called Skip Away just behind them,,,,,,,he was freak, won about 15 mil and could run the first half mile of a mile and a quarter in 44sec, Winx could never do that, but he was a dirt track horse so everything is relevant.....IMO.

[Reefton]

6 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

No recreational drugs Joe.

Show Gate wouldn't have got within cooee of Winx.

I might have given Show Gate some points for versatility but Verry Elleegant now holds that mantle by a country mile or two.

Shows what an ignoramus you really are boy.  Neither Winx nor Very Ellegant would ever have been asked to do a quarter(in terms of extremes) of what Show Gate was(nor were they asked to do anything like Kingston Town was either).  Like Black Caviar they were and are beautifully and carefully managed but they comes from a much more cossetted world than the stars/champions of yesteryear were.

[Reefton]

7 hours ago, Freda said:

Not possible to rate great horses from different eras and regimes...IMO...suffice to say that Winx would NEVER have been treated like Show Gate was.

La Mer was racing around the same time, on occasion they were compared as well, unfairly.  La Mer also was treated like a princess, and would never have been subjected to the handling that Show Gate experienced.

Dunedin Gold Cup [ mile and a half ] then, the next day, the Timaru Cup [ one mile ].    Her incredible feats at NZ  Cup meeting on that short prep, as outlined above.

We have all seen horses, unused to stable life, melt down when removed from their familiar paddocks.  The only time Show Gate went to Aus, she just didn't cope at all. It wasn't lack of class that felled her, it was just an environment that she was completely unsuited to, and given no chance to adapt.

We had a useful two year old, way back, called Zebak.   Won the Champagne stakes, and then lined up and won the 1400m two year old race later in the meeting.

His owners were sitting at the stables on the Sunday after, having a half-G and reminiscing, as was the habit, when a truck pulled in over in the visitors' area.   It had come from Lyttelton and was carrying Show Gate, among others.

One of the guys went over and stuck his head around the corner, came back and said, you wouldn't believe it, that mare is standing in the pissing rain and cold wind, with a cotton sheet on, shivering, and trying to pick at some chaff in a feedbin on the ground before the wind blew it away.  It took a bit of persuasion to stop him taking a warmer rug over to put on her.

Mouse [McCann] was at Trentham  and witnessed Show Gate taken into the birdcage, covered in shit and dirt.  Gordy was told to take her away and tidy her up.  He put the saddle on the weigh-in stalls, took her away and hosed her all over,  brought her back in and saddled her again.  Gospel.  Think she won the Trentham Stakes.

 

 

It was when she won the first Telegraph I think Pam as I remember from the old racing annuals

When she won the Trentham Stakes she broke the track record and had broken down 800m out.  Broke her sesamoid for the second time!  That was after being beaten a head in Wellington Cup the week before by Good Lord(dual Sydney Cup winner) when Ramage said she would have won but was so wide she didn't see Good Lord on the fence.   And all that of course a coupe of weeks after the Dunedin Gold Cup/Timaru Cup wins in two days

Utterly remarkable horse given the way she was treated.

 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Reefton

[Chief Stipe]

57 minutes ago, Reefton said:

Shows what an ignoramus you really are boy.  Neither Winx nor Very Ellegant would ever have been asked to do a quarter(in terms of extremes) of what Show Gate was(nor were they asked to do anything like Kingston Town was either).  Like Black Caviar they were and are beautifully and carefully managed but they comes from a much more cossetted world than the stars/champions of yesteryear were.

Sadly Reefton you are succumbing to the tactic of ad hominem attacks rather than facts and analysis.

The way Show Gate was treated is irrelevant.  On the basis of individual performances over individual distances against higher quality fields she wouldnt have beaten either Winx or Verry Elleegant.

Was Show Gate more durable?  Perhaps a case could be argued for that however what you forget is that for Winx and Verry Elleegant to win at the level they have they are also trained hard.  To compete in Sydney or Melbourne you need to be at 95%+ every start.

[Joe Bloggs]

11 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Sadly Reefton you are succumbing to the tactic of ad hominem attacks rather than facts and analysis.

The way Show Gate was treated is irrelevant.  On the basis of individual performances over individual distances against higher quality fields she wouldnt have beaten either Winx or Verry Elleegant.

Was Show Gate more durable?  Perhaps a case could be argued for that however what you forget is that for Winx and Verry Elleegant to win at the level they have they are also trained hard.  To compete in Sydney or Melbourne you need to be at 95%+ every start.

Oh Chief, if only you were a bookmaker back when I had a fair team and trained at Flemington, I reckon you would have left the joint in a tram, a trail of broken dreams and irate punters in the paddock [or Leger] waiting for settling.....ahh if only.

[Chief Stipe]

4 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Oh Chief, if only you were a bookmaker back when I had a fair team and trained at Flemington, I reckon you would have left the joint in a tram, a trail of broken dreams and irate punters in the paddock [or Leger] waiting for settling.....ahh if only.

Winx - 4 Cox Plates.  Race record knocking off Might And Power.  Equalled Kingston Towns record of three straight and then for good measure won a fourth.  Greatest winning margin of 8 lengths.

I'd have taken your money anytime Joe simply because you seem to be driven by emotion rather than analysis.

[Chief Stipe]

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Look what K Town beat, and he could win an Expressway first up, ran 2nd in a MEL cup after a brain fade by MJ, he raced on year after year, beating all those top WFA horses, not Welter horses or good handicappers like Winx did, she should have been arrested for beating up the perennial non-winner Tom Melbourne, and no-one is going to remember the horses that ran behind her, but take the time to peruse the racebooks and look at 'The Towns' victims.......as for Frankel, he would have had time to win, weigh in and serve a few maidens in the O a T bar before Winx made it into the enclosure.......

[Ludwig]

Just curious to know what this very interesting discussion has to do with the subject of the thread?

[Joe Bloggs]

It's just a few old farts shooting the breeze, [pardon the pun]......and telling porkies.......well one is.

[Reefton]

11 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Sadly Reefton you are succumbing to the tactic of ad hominem attacks rather than facts and analysis.

The way Show Gate was treated is irrelevant.  On the basis of individual performances over individual distances against higher quality fields she wouldnt have beaten either Winx or Verry Elleegant.

Was Show Gate more durable?  Perhaps a case could be argued for that however what you forget is that for Winx and Verry Elleegant to win at the level they have they are also trained hard.  To compete in Sydney or Melbourne you need to be at 95%+ every start.

What a dick.

I thought of an analogy last night after a Cardigan Bay film somehow(unsolicited by me) tuned up on my FB feed.  Using your logic you would argue that the worst horse in the Cup on Tuesday was infinitely superior to Cardigan Bay(based on times run).

Or in turn that Winx was infinitely superior to Phar Lap.

 

 

 

[Chief Stipe]

6 minutes ago, Reefton said:

What a dick.

I thought of an analogy last night after a Cardigan Bay film somehow(unsolicited by me) tuned up on my FB feed.  Using your logic you would argue that the worst horse in the Cup on Tuesday was infinitely superior to Cardigan Bay(based on times run).

Or in turn that Winx was infinitely superior to Phar Lap.

Your analogy is flawed aside from the fact you are comparing a standardbred with a thoroughbred.  The only difference between today's pacers and those of Cardigan Bay's era is that they can run fast sectionals one after the other.  The increase in top speed has been minimal.

WINX could run fast sectionals back to back as well.  However the times she broke race records are only one factor in assessing her superiority.  

Not only did she break decades long race records but also record acheivements in terms of races won in a season and weight carried.  For example she was the first horse since 1990 to win the Epsom and Doncaster in the same season carrying I think a record weight of 56.6kg for a mare in the Doncaster.  The horse to hold that record previously was Super Impose.

So your analogy is flawed simply because WINX broke records that had stood for 25 years or more - not just time records.  Records held by horses such as Might and Power, Kingston Town, Super Impose and others that were the most outstanding horses of a generation.

[Chief Stipe]

11 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Look what K Town beat, and he could win an Expressway first up, ran 2nd in a MEL cup after a brain fade by MJ, he raced on year after year, beating all those top WFA horses, not Welter horses or good handicappers like Winx did, she should have been arrested for beating up the perennial non-winner Tom Melbourne, and no-one is going to remember the horses that ran behind her, but take the time to peruse the racebooks and look at 'The Towns' victims.......as for Frankel, he would have had time to win, weigh in and serve a few maidens in the O a T bar before Winx made it into the enclosure.......

I disagree.  Sure later in Winx's career many horses avoided her but she won all her races with ease.

As for Frankel - happy to do a comparison but I suspect the analysis will have Winx out on top by a length at least.

[Freda]

Couldn't agree there.

But, opinions are like arseholes, we all have one.

 

[mikeynz]

3 minutes ago, Freda said:

Couldn't agree there.

But, opinions are like arseholes, we all have one.

 

Some people have two arseholes, the one they have and the one they are married too.

[Doomed]

12 hours ago, Ludwig said:

Just curious to know what this very interesting discussion has to do with the subject of the thread?

One never knows where these things might end up Ludwig, just enjoy the ride.

[Doomed]

I have no idea who might have won a race between Showgate, Sunline, Winx and Verry Ellegant at their respective peaks, but it would certainly have been some race. Every era has their champions, we are just lucky to have seen them, some more than others.

It is perhaps worth remembering that there wasn't nearly the gulf between Australian and NZ racing back in the day, in both stakes and quality of horses, so NZ performances were more significant than they are now.

[Gammalite]

Well you can talk about Champions of the 'Past' and who had the better' 'life' and more comfy 'woodchips' to lie in, for a racehorse.

Sure a 'tough racing life" for Show Gate doing whatever it did but No MC,   Phar Lap (up and down the sand-dunes), Kiwi (up and around the hills of Snowy's farm), All had a tough run/life compared to luxury pampering vets , scientist created diets , and worlds best Trainers like Mr Waller,  these days.

BUT,  it still stands the great mare VERRY ELLEEGANT has this great record below, not to mention her brilliant Cox Plate 3rd placing the other day.  Dare I say it , might of given illustrious stable-mate WINX a fright in some races. 

Those past Melbourne Cup winners wouldn't know what way she went. 

 

Major wins
Ethereal Stakes (2018) Phar Lap Stakes (2019) Vinery Stud Stakes (2019) Australian Oaks (2019) Hill Stakes (2019) Tancred Stakes (2020) Winx Stakes (2020) Turnbull Stakes (2020) Caulfield Cup (2020) Chipping Norton Stakes (2021) Ranvet Stakes (2021) George Main Stakes (2021) Melbourne Cup (2021)
Awards
Australian Racehorse of the Year (2020/21) Australian Champion Stayer (2020/21) Australian Champion Middle Distance Racehorse (2020/21)

[Joe Bloggs]

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

Well you can talk about Champions of the 'Past' and who had the better' 'life' and more comfy 'woodchips' to lie in, for a racehorse.

Sure a 'tough racing life" for Show Gate doing whatever it did but No MC,   Phar Lap (up and down the sand-dunes), Kiwi (up and around the hills of Snowy's farm), All had a tough run/life compared to luxury pampering vets , scientist created diets , and worlds best Trainers like Mr Waller,  these days.

BUT,  it still stands the great mare VERRY ELLEEGANT has this great record below, not to mention her brilliant Cox Plate 3rd placing the other day.  Dare I say it , might of given illustrious stable-mate WINX a fright in some races. 

Those past Melbourne Cup winners wouldn't know what way she went. 

 

Major wins
Ethereal Stakes (2018) Phar Lap Stakes (2019) Vinery Stud Stakes (2019) Australian Oaks (2019) Hill Stakes (2019) Tancred Stakes (2020) Winx Stakes (2020) Turnbull Stakes (2020) Caulfield Cup (2020) Chipping Norton Stakes (2021) Ranvet Stakes (2021) George Main Stakes (2021) Melbourne Cup (2021)
Awards
Australian Racehorse of the Year (2020/21) Australian Champion Stayer (2020/21) Australian Champion Middle Distance Racehorse (2020/21)

Two horse race, 2 miles, set weights,  track a dead 4, VE or MD? 

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Two horse race, 2 miles, set weights,  track a dead 4, VE or MD? 

VE.  Wouldn't matter if the track was heavy, soft or good.

[Gammalite]

50 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Two horse race, 2 miles, set weights,  track a dead 4, VE or MD? 

don't ya just love em' !! . Weight didn't scare them off either. VE with 57kg  haul And the Diva 58kg the 3rd time round.

and with track conditions VE running 3.17.5 odd and Makybe Diva 3.19 odd for the 2 miles . pretty quick too.

Too close to call? your match race...... Super performances all round. 

Maybe in honour of some of those great 2 mile mares ,(Empire Rose and Ethereal too)  the mare MOIRAS TOWN can take out the Nz Cup at 3200m this week-end ?  

[muzenza365]

On 10/11/2021 at 10:05 PM, Chief Stipe said:

Sadly Reefton you are succumbing to the tactic of ad hominem attacks rather than facts and analysis.

The way Show Gate was treated is irrelevant.  On the basis of individual performances over individual distances against higher quality fields she wouldnt have beaten either Winx or Verry Elleegant.

Was Show Gate more durable?  Perhaps a case could be argued for that however what you forget is that for Winx and Verry Elleegant to win at the level they have they are also trained hard.  To compete in Sydney or Melbourne you need to be at 95%+ every start.

Chief, I cannot agree with you when you say how Show Gate was treated is Irrelevant.

Have a look at say Winx,she would have had a blood test taken once a week,any horse vitamins/supplements, she had her own masseur to manipulate her muscle, had access to a pool, treadmill and any other aid available to a horses well being.

Now i will tell you a couple of stories regarding Show Gate,

I asked Gordon if he used Veterinary services on his Bonny mare,his reply was she saw a vet twice in her life,the day she broke down at Trentham and the day she got pregnancy tested. The Kurow president asked him if he would bring her to their meeting to show the public ,He asked if they had an open sprint,this was after having a week off, he said yes,so put her in carried top weight and won in a canter.A leading female equestrian rider who is now married to a leading owner who lived in Ashburton knew where GB kept his horses over Cup Week and seen SG and looked in her feed bin and replied that her pony would get a better feed.Dusty chaff and scoop of oats

Anyway both Winx and Show Gate in my opinion were champions, but i do wonder if the trainers were swapped, if we would be still call both them champions, I would not think so for one of them.

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, muzenza365 said:

Chief, I cannot agree with you when you say how Show Gate was treated is Irrelevant.

It is irrelevant because you have no idea whether changes in her training regime would have given different results or better performances.  Therefore we can only compare recorded performances.

1 hour ago, muzenza365 said:

Have a look at say Winx,she would have had a blood test taken once a week,any horse vitamins/supplements, she had her own masseur to manipulate her muscle, had access to a pool, treadmill and any other aid available to a horses well being.

As have thousands of other horses in the last decade or more.  However in terms of longevity and sustained high level performance Winx has left everyone of those horses well behind.  Just as she would have left Show Gate in her wake in my opinion.

Winx won her first race as a 2 yr old June 2014 and her last race as a 7 yr old in April 2019.

Apart from her 2 yr old starts every race she started in was a Grp race.

Her last 33 wins in a row were all in Grp races.  She beat her rivals by an average of 3.6 lengths often easing down or going away from them.

She could also throw in a 10.8 second 200m sectional at the end of 2000m.

[Doomed]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

It is irrelevant because you have no idea whether changes in her training regime would have given different results or better performances.  Therefore we can only compare recorded performances.

As have thousands of other horses in the last decade or more.  However in terms of longevity and sustained high level performance Winx has left everyone of those horses well behind.  Just as she would have left Show Gate in her wake in my opinion.

Winx won her first race as a 2 yr old June 2014 and her last race as a 7 yr old in April 2019.

Apart from her 2 yr old starts every race she started in was a Grp race.

Her last 33 wins in a row were all in Grp races.  She beat her rivals by an average of 3.6 lengths often easing down or going away from them.

She could also throw in a 10.8 second 200m sectional at the end of 2000m.

Ah yes, but Winx never won a Timaru Cup.

[billy connolly]

7 hours ago, Doomed said:

Ah yes, but Winx never won a Timaru Cup.

Exactly, Show Gate was a freak but didn't do half of what Winx (or Sunline) did.