AWT

[Reefton]

12 minutes ago, Reefton said:

I don't think there is so much a lack of interest in those areas in particular just a lack of interest in the South Island in general

We would like another raceday sure but the Westland situation clearly rankles with them still so we will not get that I wouldn't think.

The issue is no thought into the pattern of racing in the South.  No logical two year old series especially south of Christchurch nor much for three year olds.  Ten weeks with not one feature meeting within 5 hours of Christchurch and then series of probably ten feature meetings within eleven weeks.  As stated seven weeks with not one grass track meeting in Canterbury.  From our perspective too short a timeframe for our meetings(but we are a minor issue in the bigger scheme of things to be fair.

I think there is a pretty fair distribution of feature meetings (maybe the CJC has got a one of two too many - but clearly Mills has sway at NZTR(having plenty of time to be in their ear).  Timaru definitely deserves one or two given the shit days they put up with in winter.   There just needs to be a better pattern of racing that's all and it needs some innovators in regards the type of racing(claiming races, going back to the old 'for horses that have not won a race in the past year' or 'horses that have not won more than $10k in the last year'. That type of thing.  Just some thinking re

 

It is just that the

FFS!   That shouldn't have posted pushed save in error obviously - tried to edit it but it wouldn't let me

It should be:

I don't think there is so much a lack of interest in those areas in particular just a lack of interest in the South Island in general.

We would like another raceday sure but the Westland situation clearly rankles with them still so we will not get that I wouldn't think(won't stop us asking but I am a lone voice really and they - quite understandably - ignore me).

The issue is no thought into the pattern of racing in the South.  No logical two year old series especially south of Christchurch nor much for three year olds.  Ten weeks with not one feature meeting within 5 hours of Christchurch and then series of probably ten feature meetings within eleven weeks.  As stated currently seven weeks with not one grass track meeting in Canterbury.  From our perspective too short a timeframe for our meetings(but we are a minor issue in the bigger scheme of things to be fair).

I think there is a pretty fair distribution of feature meetings (maybe the CJC has got a one or two too many - but clearly Mills has sway at NZTR(having plenty of time to be in their ear)).  Timaru definitely deserves one or two given the shit days they put up with in winter.   There just needs to be a better pattern of racing that's all and it needs some innovators in regards the type of racing(claiming races, going back to the old 'for horses that have not won a race in the past year' or 'horses that have not won more than $10k in the last year'. That type of thing).  Just some thinking required to try to keep old geldings in particular in work.

Your would still have your pinnacles(GN Meeting, Cup Meeting, Dunedin in Feb and Riccarton in the Autumn) and they would still be at the same time just a better pattern through the year.  As I said I even offered to do it for them if they aren't up to it but I bloody shouldn't have to.  Have they got nobody up there capable of a bit of actual innovative thinking?  If they haven't then God help the NZ industry but from where I sit all they are interested in doing is pandering to the big Clubs and vested interests in the North.

[billy connolly]

On 6/05/2022 at 3:10 PM, Doomed said:

It would be good to hear what the trainers and jockeys thought of the track.

Polytrack seems reasonable racing thus far, can't see why punters view it with trepidation.

A decent (cambered) surface in Winter makes for better racing for mine.

Maintenance through Canterbury's Summer months may be an issue.

[mikeynz]

Very interesting numbers for Avondale,big numbers on a heavy 10 only a week after Cambridge had fuck all, why that love racing site dont follow the harness site for reading fields and results is beyond me, just a add on that comment.

[Doomed]

21 minutes ago, mikeynz said:

Very interesting numbers for Avondale,big numbers on a heavy 10 only a week after Cambridge had fuck all, why that love racing site dont follow the harness site for reading fields and results is beyond me, just a add on that comment.

Good point there. I don't think I have ever seen so many horses eliminated in the North as at this Avondale meeting. They could very easily have run 15 races. And as you say, only a week or so after Cambridge could only manage 7 races and three of the maidens had only 5 and 7 starters from memory. It certainly does show the trainers preferences.

There can only really be three reasons for this situation:

1. Some horses racing in the winter months are doing so because they need wet tracks.

2. Some horses don't handle the AWT.

3. Perhaps connections feel that the sale value of an AWT winner isn't as good as a grass track winner, even a wet grass track. There might even be more demand for wet track performers in NSW in years to come. Zed could become the go to stallion for NSW.

[Chief Stipe]

Of course we still have not seen the business plan or the business model that these AWT's are being measured by.

If you invest substantial new capital into a greenfield's (excuse the pun) operation then surely the business plan would be, at the very least to return revenue proportional to the relative cost when compared to other tracks e.g. if the operation of most tracks in NZ return revenue to cover say 70% of costs then that same metric should apply to the AWT's.  I really doubt that the AWT's will do that particularly the Awapuni and Riccarton one's where the horses in training is substantially smaller than Cambridge.

It is also misleading to suggest that Pokies are subsidising the tracks and clubs as I understand it the majority of that revenue goes directly to the new RIB behemoth.

So the top up comes from Sports and Imported races assuming that no NZ race track pays its way.  Both sources of income have downward pressures and can't be relied on to meet the top up requirements.  So arguably any new capital investment in tracks should have as a business model foundation an objective of paying its way!  

The AWT's are a high cost model of operation meanwhile perfectly good tracks with capital already sunk (invested) and low maintenance costs are being mothballed and/or underutilised.  Contrary to popular opinion some (most) clubs actually do make profits sufficient to cover their maintenance costs.  I read a number of Club annual reports during lockdown (I hate that word!) and many had activities that supplement the racing.  I can't recall exactly but I think Riverton was one such club where livestock farming was an adjunct source of income.  So the brains trust says close these courses down and reinvest the money in a bigger better track that runs on a higher cost model further up the road....somewhere....  With the dream that hospitality will do better than sheep or crops!

[mikeynz]

36 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Of course we still have not seen the business plan or the business model that these AWT's are being measured by.

If you invest substantial new capital into a greenfield's (excuse the pun) operation then surely the business plan would be, at the very least to return revenue proportional to the relative cost when compared to other tracks e.g. if the operation of most tracks in NZ return revenue to cover say 70% of costs then that same metric should apply to the AWT's.  I really doubt that the AWT's will do that particularly the Awapuni and Riccarton one's where the horses in training is substantially smaller than Cambridge.

It is also misleading to suggest that Pokies are subsidising the tracks and clubs as I understand it the majority of that revenue goes directly to the new RIB behemoth.

So the top up comes from Sports and Imported races assuming that no NZ race track pays its way.  Both sources of income have downward pressures and can't be relied on to meet the top up requirements.  So arguably any new capital investment in tracks should have as a business model foundation an objective of paying its way!  

The AWT's are a high cost model of operation meanwhile perfectly good tracks with capital already sunk (invested) and low maintenance costs are being mothballed and/or underutilised.  Contrary to popular opinion some (most) clubs actually do make profits sufficient to cover their maintenance costs.  I read a number of Club annual reports during lockdown (I hate that word!) and many had activities that supplement the racing.  I can't recall exactly but I think Riverton was one such club where livestock farming was an adjunct source of income.  So the brains trust says close these courses down and reinvest the money in a bigger better track that runs on a higher cost model further up the road....somewhere....  With the dream that hospitality will do better than sheep or crops!

Interesting that on feature days like Wingatui the $40000 races are now 35 and the $35000 0nes are 30, seems the stakes levels have reached their level.

As for sports betting funding  be interesting to know how much goes back to sport and how much elsewhere as in stakes etc etc.

Good noms for Wingatui too by the way.

Edited May 24, 2022 by mikeynz

[Doomed]

37 minutes ago, mikeynz said:

Interesting that on feature days like Wingatui the $40000 races are now 35 and the $35000 0nes are 30, seems the stakes levels have reached their level.

As for sports betting funding  be interesting to know how much goes back to sport and how much elsewhere as in stakes etc etc.

Good noms for Wingatui too by the way.

It is just the $40,000 races that have come back to $35,000. Probably a good idea too as many of the fields for that class are quite small.

Trentham this weekend is a good example of the need to optimise stakes money. Five noms for a $60,000 race, four of whom would have been eligible for a rating 74. I'm sure the same five would have turned up for a $35,000 race. So $25,000 wasted really. 

[Freda]

17 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Of course we still have not seen the business plan or the business model that these AWT's are being measured by.

If you invest substantial new capital into a greenfield's (excuse the pun) operation then surely the business plan would be, at the very least to return revenue proportional to the relative cost when compared to other tracks e.g. if the operation of most tracks in NZ return revenue to cover say 70% of costs then that same metric should apply to the AWT's.  I really doubt that the AWT's will do that particularly the Awapuni and Riccarton one's where the horses in training is substantially smaller than Cambridge.

It is also misleading to suggest that Pokies are subsidising the tracks and clubs as I understand it the majority of that revenue goes directly to the new RIB behemoth.

So the top up comes from Sports and Imported races assuming that no NZ race track pays its way.  Both sources of income have downward pressures and can't be relied on to meet the top up requirements.  So arguably any new capital investment in tracks should have as a business model foundation an objective of paying its way!  

The AWT's are a high cost model of operation meanwhile perfectly good tracks with capital already sunk (invested) and low maintenance costs are being mothballed and/or underutilised.  Contrary to popular opinion some (most) clubs actually do make profits sufficient to cover their maintenance costs.  I read a number of Club annual reports during lockdown (I hate that word!) and many had activities that supplement the racing.  I can't recall exactly but I think Riverton was one such club where livestock farming was an adjunct source of income.  So the brains trust says close these courses down and reinvest the money in a bigger better track that runs on a higher cost model further up the road....somewhere....  With the dream that hospitality will do better than sheep or crops!

Indirectly, pokies have to be subsiding tracks/clubs/stakes...because the 14 mill that is swallowed up by the RIB would otherwise be going in their direction.

Edited May 24, 2022 by Freda

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Freda said:

Indirectly, pokies have to be subsiding tracks/clubs/stakes...because the 14 mill that is swallowed up by the RIB would otherwise be going in their direction.

If they are subsidising anything it is Stakes.  Why shouldn't the RIB be able to fund itself by charging for its services?  

Some tracks/clubs make a profit on their activities without getting handouts and are able to keep up with their maintenance costs.

Would a Corporation close down profitable business production sub-units and invest in new non-profitable production activities?  Then spend realised capital to sustain operating costs?  Yeah na!

 

[mikeynz]

Interesting, all heavy tracks around the country yet Wingatui has a good 4, I reckon that's a misprint.

[nomates]

On 24/05/2022 at 11:33 AM, Doomed said:

Good point there. I don't think I have ever seen so many horses eliminated in the North as at this Avondale meeting. They could very easily have run 15 races. And as you say, only a week or so after Cambridge could only manage 7 races and three of the maidens had only 5 and 7 starters from memory. It certainly does show the trainers preferences.

There can only really be three reasons for this situation:

1. Some horses racing in the winter months are doing so because they need wet tracks.

2. Some horses don't handle the AWT.

3. Perhaps connections feel that the sale value of an AWT winner isn't as good as a grass track winner, even a wet grass track. There might even be more demand for wet track performers in NSW in years to come. Zed could become the go to stallion for NSW.

The numbers that showed up at the first Cambridge meeting was an embarrassment , and shows what a pointless exercise these tracks are from a racing point of view . Going to be interesting to see how numbers at Riccarton hold up as we move thru winter .

The numbers that have shown up at Avondale and Matamata the week before might help them going forward in the shorter term as those horses that couldn't handle the wet grass tracks might give the A/W track a go .

To answer your other points regarding why low numbers at Cambridge ,

1. Most horses that race in winter and like rain affected tracks do so most of the time because they aren't quick enough on good tracks and so need races that are run at a slower pace . Some need slower tracks because of confirmation faults , which can be generational , which means they can't run on good surfaces . Read the article on the NZTR home page about Spring Tide , has conformational issues that prevent him racing on good surfaces .

2. There will be plenty of horses that simply wont handle the A/W surface , all for varying reasons , one of the most frequent will be action , in the USA dirt racing is prevalent and horses have been bred for generations to race on dirt so will have physical traits that have allowed them to become proficient on these surfaces . Many top dirt performing stallions have been tried in Australasia and failed , i would suggest the latest is American Pharoah , JMO .

3.Very few horses used to be sold off heavy track wins but as demand for horses has grown there are many more horses being sold off wet track wins , owners desperate to buy a horse and take the risk , i have seen a few over the last 3/4 years that haven't gone on in Aus ? They are also gambling on the NZ form stacking up and a lot are going over and just not being up to city class .

As for sales off A/W's i can't say as i haven't got the connections i used to since these have come into use , but i would think the Aussies especially aren't stupid , even they know that A/W winners are such for a reason and hence might have a limited ceiling .

 

[billy connolly]

1 hour ago, nomates said:

The numbers that showed up at the first Cambridge meeting was an embarrassment, and shows what a pointless exercise these tracks are from a racing point of view . Going to be interesting to see how numbers at Riccarton hold up as we move thru winter.

As for sales off A/W's i can't say as i haven't got the connections i used to since these have come into use , but i would think the Aussies especially aren't stupid , even they know that A/W winners are such for a reason and hence might have a limited ceiling .

What is the problem with synthetic surfaces, these are modern well designed tracks?

With a few exceptions most of our current turf tracks are antiquated, poorly designed and dangerous.

IMO a horse who has won on a modern synthetic surface has won on its merits, a horse who has won at a bull ring like Reefton or a swamp like Kumara needs as much luck as ability.

[Reefton]

44 minutes ago, billy connolly said:

What is the problem with synthetic surfaces, these are modern well designed tracks?

With a few exceptions most of our current turf tracks are antiquated, poorly designed and dangerous.

IMO a horse who has won on a modern synthetic surface has won on its merits, a horse who has won at a bull ring like Reefton or a swamp like Kumara needs as much luck as ability.

Yeah that's right

Attimo broke 1.22 at Reefton.  Amazing a horse could do that around a bull ring(actually it is astonishing a horse could do it at all at Reefton given how tight it is but that's another story)

The reason it did it was because the track was presented in superb condition as it invariably is.  Unlike the track at the South Island's claimed premier venue which is so often a shithole with inside or(more likely) outside lanes caused by the way the track is laid and by inconsistent watering.  We get to practice our irrigation once a year and ALWAYS get it right - how come they are doing it virtually every week but rarely get it right?

Ans the other difference between Reefton and Kumara (especially) and Riccarton is that people actually want to go to Kumara and in general they do not want to go to Riccarton.  Oh and we pay our own way while they sponge off the NZ industry.

 

[nomates]

10 hours ago, billy connolly said:

What is the problem with synthetic surfaces, these are modern well designed tracks?

With a few exceptions most of our current turf tracks are antiquated, poorly designed and dangerous.

IMO a horse who has won on a modern synthetic surface has won on its merits, a horse who has won at a bull ring like Reefton or a swamp like Kumara needs as much luck as ability.

The best example i can give for you is to think about running on a grass park , now go and run on the beach , slightly different . But if all we did was run on beaches then over time we would become more competent on them . Runners would change their actions and the way they trained .

It's the same with wet track horses , a large proportion of them have high knee actions which are suited to going thru a heavy track but don't work on hard surfaces .

If we decided to race on nothing but A/W tracks then it would take generations of breeding to get to the stage of having a sustainable population of A/W racehorses . Countries that have been doing it for decades have those populations . 

As most people i know have said religiously if they had maintained and restructured the existing tracks we wouldn't be in this position . What they are doing at Ellerslie should have been done 20+ years ago , along with a lot of other well used tracks . Imagine if they had had the foresight to do that .

[Huey]

Some amazing stuff in this article

An extra 12 race days on AWT at Awapuni next season! What if trainers don't take to it in their droves as expected/demanded? - I'm happy to be proven wrong but I don't think they will after 5 or 6 racemeetings.

Doubling of horse numbers to over 400, what is this guy on? has he seen where the industry is heading?

There is a lot of growth in the industry, did he mean on Gavelhouse sales?

“It’s a beautiful camber, it’s a work of art. The drainage is really good.” - I've heard this about so many tracks in the industry , the proof is always in the pudding!

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/racing/300608122/synthetic-track-at-awapuni-racecourse-nears-completion?fbclid=IwAR3gCj9UKSqqJdInJTLUSZT72WuNqlQAynbB7japq1XYj_TkNkFeMAtnx20

[nomates]

2 minutes ago, Huey said:

Doubling of horse numbers to over 400, what is this guy on

Read that and just shook my head , they must be going to close Otaki , Levin and Foxton , plus some others . Weren't they also just about to kick one of the bigger stables off the track not so long ago .

It's just more bullshit to sell the product , there is no way they will get 400 horses trained there.

The CD will be lucky if they have 400 horses trained in the whole district in 5 years . 

[Kihikihi Kid]

12 hours ago, Huey said:

Some amazing stuff in this article

An extra 12 race days on AWT at Awapuni next season! What if trainers don't take to it in their droves as expected/demanded? - I'm happy to be proven wrong but I don't think they will after 5 or 6 racemeetings.

Doubling of horse numbers to over 400, what is this guy on? has he seen where the industry is heading?

There is a lot of growth in the industry, did he mean on Gavelhouse sales?

“It’s a beautiful camber, it’s a work of art. The drainage is really good.” - I've heard this about so many tracks in the industry , the proof is always in the pudding!

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/racing/300608122/synthetic-track-at-awapuni-racecourse-nears-completion?fbclid=IwAR3gCj9UKSqqJdInJTLUSZT72WuNqlQAynbB7japq1XYj_TkNkFeMAtnx20

The camber is a work of art , fk me ....

[Kihikihi Kid]

Just now, Kihikihi Kid said:

The camber is a work of art , fk me ....

oh ,and 400 horses ffs, should be sacked on the spot this prick

[Huey]

4 hours ago, Kihikihi Kid said:

oh ,and 400 horses ffs, should be sacked on the spot this prick

Yep the comments just scream " I have no idea about the industry I'm working in"  - probably why he was hired.

[Freda]

I heard [ anecdotally ]  that the consulting company, Sapere, had recommended that Riccarton numbers be increased to at least 600 to put the training operation back in the black.

I know that HRNZ did commission a report by said company, with advice forthcoming as to which tracks to close;  but I can't find any reference to the galloping side.

Anyone have any information further to this?

[Huey]

2 hours ago, Freda said:

I heard [ anecdotally ]  that the consulting company, Sapere, had recommended that Riccarton numbers be increased to at least 600 to put the training operation back in the black.

I know that HRNZ did commission a report by said company, with advice forthcoming as to which tracks to close;  but I can't find any reference to the galloping side.

Anyone have any information further to this?

Page 14 onwards might hint towards it

https://loveracing.nz/OnHorseFiles/Phase 1_NZTR_VenuePlan FINAL.pdf

600 horses meaning trainers whose tracks are closed will just upsticks to Riccarton or the horses from that area will, so cannibalised growth is that what you mean?

[nomates]

Is there even 600 horses in work in the whole of the SI ?

[Doomed]

25 minutes ago, nomates said:

Is there even 600 horses in work in the whole of the SI ?

There will be when the new Group 1 stakes start.

[curious]

1 hour ago, Doomed said:

There will be when the new Group 1 stakes start.

That should do it. I'm curious to know whether numbers training have increased at either Cambridge or Riccarton subsequent the addition of the AWTs. Any info on that for Riccarton Freda? Or Cambridge anyone? I can see that Riccarton now probably does need 600 in work to bring their training operation into the black, especially with the additional costs of maintaining the AWT. But as noted, where the heck would the extra 400 come from?

[Chief Stipe]

13 minutes ago, curious said:

I'm curious to know whether numbers training have increased at either Cambridge

I don't think they ever expected training numbers to increase at Cambridge.  1,200 in work.  The AWT replaced one of the stuffed turf tracks.

Cambridge could have funded it themselves.