INCA Case Finally Dropped Against X, Y and Z

[Freda]

14 hours ago, Spatchcock said:

We well see who is right and who is telling half-truths. At least 10 people were represented in Court on Friday and the next key date, of three, is July 29. Then August 26, then September 9. 

This is similar to what I have heard;  and I'm not taking sides or expressing an opinion either way.  But the process I find confusing.  If the charges are thrown out - as has been implied - why, then, the court dates?

And, if the RIB are continuing with their actions, the court stuff wouldn't have any bearing, would it ?

[Chief Stipe]

6 years since the investigation began and wire taps, bugging and the dawn raids were executed. 

I've seen photos of the RIB staff dressed in police vests, with walkie-talkies and with grins in their faces like they were going on a corporate bonding exercise. 

So far no direct prosecution related to Harness Racing activity arising from the INCA investigation.

Over $15 million spent by the authorities, police and RIB - yet zip, nada, nothing!

If the RIB do have a strong case within their gambit of responsibility why haven't they proceeded with charges?

Meanwhile those with egg on their faces keep feeding the journalists and continue with their ex failed cop routine of hounding their targets until they break.

What's the agenda?

To bring Harness Racing to its knees?  Who benefits from that?

[Nowornever]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

6 years since the investigation began and wire taps, bugging and the dawn raids were executed. 

I've seen photos of the RIB staff dressed in police vests, with walkie-talkies and with grins in their faces like they were going on a corporate bonding exercise. 

So far no direct prosecution related to Harness Racing activity arising from the INCA investigation.

Over $15 million spent by the authorities, police and RIB - yet zip, nada, nothing!

If the RIB do have a strong case within their gambit of responsibility why haven't they proceeded with charges?

Meanwhile those with egg on their faces keep feeding the journalists and continue with their ex failed cop routine of hounding their targets until they break.

What's the agenda?

To bring Harness Racing to its knees?  Who benefits from that?

I think the RIB went in to this half cocked with no factual evidence of race fixing just a few assumptions, just like I posted in here suggesting that might be the case the day this became public knowledge 6 years ago.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Nowornever

[With A Dream]

On 7/06/2022 at 5:27 AM, Freda said:

If the charges are thrown out - as has been implied - why, then, the court dates?

I believe all the charges against X,Y & Z,  both Court charges and RIU charges have been dropped as there was never any evidence against them. I believe the court charges were dropped last year because they were allegations with no evidence to support them. The RIU seem to have finally accepted there was no wrong doing on the part of these people.

The court dates Spatchcock refer to (if correct) must apply to other licensee's.  From what I  can gather the evidence against them is virtually non existent although admittedly it is hard to get accurate information.  

We shall see.   What is very clear now  and cannot be in dispute, is that there was no widespread collusion to fix races.   If anyone still believes there was,  they are delusional conspiracy theorists.

[LongOwner]

Is this the quality of NZ Police - another shameful act of altering evidence and they had known for years and done nothing about it.

There is a member of the RIU staff who has a similar approach to policing - obtaining a confession from a mentally impaired person who didn’t commit the crime - who received a nice cheque for wrongly spending a long period in prison .

 

 “ It is incontestable that Mr Turner’s visual description of the man he saw on 13 October 1985 was intentionally altered by the prosecution.”

He said both the jury and Hall were deceived.

Chisnall said what befell Hall at trial and afterward, brought into question the integrity of the justice system, when the problems were known in 1988 but nothing had been done until 2022.

Crown lawyer Madeleine Laracy said there was no substantive opposition to the arguments raised by Hall’s legal team.

Laracy said Chisnall’s characterisation of the case as a "trial gone wrong" was lamentably correct. 

“The Crown acknowledges that significant parts of the criminal justice process have failed Mr Hall, and serious hara/harm has been caused. The first step in relation to each, and redressing the legal wrong, is the public acknowledgement by the Crown in this Court that Mr Hall should be acquitted.” 

Chief Justice Dame Helen Winkelmann acknowledged the serious harm done to Hall and his family.

[With A Dream]

Just like Bruce Hutton who planted evidence in the Crew murder case, the problem is these crooked cops are never held to account so it keeps on happening

Some cops are more interested in getting a conviction than finding the truth.  Bruce Hutton did enormous damage to the reputation of the police and opened peoples  eyes to their sometimes  corrupt investigations. 

As the late and well respected QC Peter Williams once said, Bruce Hutton should have gone to prison for obstructing justice. Unfortunately it is evident it wasn't to be  an isolated case.  

[the galah]

This inca thing has generated the "remaining charges dropped" topic on social media over and over again.For some that is taken literally and immediately is interpreted to mean everything has been dropped.Yet there always seems to be another day to come when the same headline for a topic is dragged out again.Each time it is,its a contradiction of the previous topic.It must come to an end one day,hopefully soon,but in reality it doesn't appear to have yet..

Also every time  charges do not proceed, we are told on social media that there was never any evidence of wrong doing, and the norm is we see the ones claiming vindication, are those who said it was all a manipulation of evidence designed to bring down certain targeted individuals.

On top of that each time operation inca creates discussion, we are also told that the allegations had involved widespread collusion to fix races,this despite in reality the allegations apparently only involving a very small number of people,and only a limited number of races. The "widespread" claim seemed  in an effort to generate more sympathy for those charged,by making that the perception. Ironically all while  those charged never claimed anything of the sort.

Also,rightly or wrongly,those who support those charged, view of minimal consequence the use of recreational drugs,and believe whether anyone should care or not should be based on who used and who supplied them, and what standing the person had within the industry,either way.The approach being that because said activity is commonplace in society,harness racing is only reflecting that and besides the drug use came to light as an incidental of the investigation,which somehow is a reason to minimise it.

And no one seems to have answered yet whether the evidence gathered by the police can be made available to the RIB to use in their prosections.Is that matter still with the high court for a ruling?

Isn't it fair to ask,why would you spend a small fortune trying to stop evidence gathered by another investigative authority,unless you thought it was in your best interests to prevent such evidence being available. 

This topic refers to cran dalgety as no longer having any charges. Thats the first time personally i had heard his name mentioned in relation to operation inca.

All the above are perplexing and a little confusing.

I still go back to the point i made when this all started. Matt andersons drive on johnny white at nelson and the evidence gathered at the time which was in the relatively early stages of the investigation, in hindsight seems to have been a factor in giving impetus to the investigation.

I still believe anyone with any sense  must recognise how that contributed to the investigation of others. Why didn't he just try??Was it all worth it?It would have made life so much less complicated.... 

Edited June 8, 2022 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

44 minutes ago, the galah said:

Also,rightly or wrongly,those who support those charged, view of minimal consequence the use of recreational drugs,and believe whether anyone should care or not should be based on who used and who supplied them, and what standing the person had within the industry,either way.The approach being that because said activity is commonplace in society,harness racing is only reflecting that and besides the drug use came to light as an incidental of the investigation,which somehow is a reason to minimise it.

There is minimisation but it concerns the minimising of behaviour and actions of the RIB and the Police.

The RIB engaged the Police on the basis that significant criminal fraud was occurring.  It wasn't to identify who was using or supplying recreational drugs.

Wire tapping, bugging and clandestine surveillance was undertaken to uncover the supposed fraud.  The only points scored so far have been for activities other than the original objective.

Should the entire industry or the entire community be subjected to the same kind of surveillance?  

[Chief Stipe]

27 minutes ago, the galah said:

Isn't it fair to ask,why would you spend a small fortune trying to stop evidence gathered by another investigative authority,unless you thought it was in your best interests to prevent such evidence being available. 

It is fair to ask why but it isn't fair to infer that the reason those charged are allegedly seeking to suppress evidence is because they are guilty.  There is an issue of justice, fairness and I'd say basic human rights.

If the Police don't have sufficient evidence to prosecute and or succeed in Court then that should be the end of the matter.  The RIB should not be allowed a second go through their own judicial process.  Arguably they forgoed that opportunity when they engaged the Police.

However if they do charge under the racing rules and process where they are Judge and Jury and penalise those involved then it will likely end up back in the High Court.  Vis a vis the Sheryl Wigg case.

That would be manifestly unfair and a waste of resources.

 

[Chief Stipe]

29 minutes ago, the galah said:

still go back to the point i made when this all started. Matt andersons drive on johnny white at nelson and the evidence gathered at the time which was in the relatively early stages of the investigation, in hindsight seems to have been a factor in giving impetus to the investigation.

I still believe anyone with any sense  must recognise how that contributed to the investigation of others. Why didn't he just try??Was it all worth it?It would have made life so much less complicated.... 

Isn't the bigger question why didn't the RIB use their industry powers and the process available to them if they thought the drive was deliberately a bad one?  THAT would have been the end of the matter.

[the galah]

I believe you make some reasonable points there with both those posts chief.

[Chief Stipe]

3 minutes ago, the galah said:

I believe you make some reasonable points there with both those posts chief.

As do you @the galah.

I've read much of the social media commentary and the writings of many masquerading as journalists.  What has become apparent to me is that there is a coordinated group within the industry that are targeting certain stables and licensed participants. 

For example it is clearly apparent that the same group that hides behind private social media is feeding the likes of @Archie Butterfly.

The RIB and to a degree HRNZ through their incompetence have enabled this group.  For example the wild and outlandish accusation of the use of PED'S could be dealt with very easily.

Yet we hear nothing from the RIB or HRNZ.  With the former it is in their best interests to maintain the perception that there are drugs in use that they cannot yet detect.  Which quite frankly is utter bollocks.

[Gammalite]

22 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Wire tapping, bugging and clandestine surveillance was undertaken to uncover the supposed fraud.  The only points scored so far have been for activities other than the original objective.

Should the entire industry or the entire community be subjected to the same kind of surveillance?

Possibly Chief. ANy evidence gathered is good for getting that what is needed to get rid of the cheats. Usually a betting sting or a race fixing sting would involve 'Phone communication' Convictions were made in QLD from the evidence texts of a disqualified person who 'currupted ' a trainer and driver(s) to get his 3k bet on . A very sad situation , but the folk did their time and are back in action. (apart from the MORON who texted them . And they are once again getting some good winners at Albion. Wish these DQ gambling F'Heads would piss off and leave the active participants alone IMO. ...

[Chief Stipe]

1 minute ago, Gammalite said:

Possibly Chief. ANy evidence gathered is good for getting that what is needed to get rid of the cheats. Usually a betting sting or a race fixing sting would involve 'Phone communication' Convictions were made in QLD from the evidence texts of a disqualified person who 'currupted ' a trainer and driver(s) to get his 3k bet on . A very sad situation , but the folk did their time and are back in action. (apart from the MORON who texted them . And they are once again getting some good winners at Albion. Wish these DQ gambling F'Heads would piss off and leave the active participants alone IMO. ...

But the point is @Gammalite if the evidence isnt sufficient to prosecute successfully in the Criminal Court then it shouldn't be sufficient elsewhere.

As for betting "stings" I hope you don't mean the good old fashioned setting up of a horse to win at a good price?

Been party to a number of those.

[Gammalite]

2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

But the point is @Gammalite if the evidence isnt sufficient to prosecute successfully in the Criminal Court then it shouldn't be sufficient elsewhere.

As for betting "stings" I hope you don't mean the good old fashioned setting up of a horse to win at a good price?

Been party to a number of those.

Agreed Chief, they do seem 'unwilling to prosecute ' in NZ . you almost need a confession lol..... In Aus they DID prosecute with the phone text and especially BETTING evidence which 'high-lighted' the fraud going on.

Race-fixing in Aus is now called Match -fixing and is a criminal offence. You are arrested by police, It isn't an in-house penalty anymore controlled by stipes or anything . 

YES !! betting stings still happen. We had many in my day too.  Usually just involved a good horse going to the front . No other drivers/ trainers were paid (as far as I know) .....  Race fixing involves 2 (or more) runners being driven in a manner to favour the 'Plunge' horse. as you know . these are the ones INCA and Aus authorities are interested in. 

To Galah , myself and others that have driven races  we can spot those, compared to a plunge runner backed from 4's to even money because we know it is a good fast horse.

[the galah]

Just now, Chief Stipe said:

Isn't the bigger question why didn't the RIB use their industry powers and the process available to them if they thought the drive was deliberately a bad one?  THAT would have been the end of the matter.

And i  agree with that.

That must be one of the lessons learnt.

If the RIU think a drive is dodgy,they must be seen to have the confidence to be investigating it themselves,whatever the outcome.Appropriate action from them must be a factor in acting as a major deterrent. Go back a few years and the previous approach of the RIU was that of not wishing to rock the boat because of the fear of criticism from within the industry,and simply because it was easier.

But importantly there also needs to be a recognition from factions within the industry that if your going to show no respect to those who's job it is to police the rules,then that attitude will have destructive results for themselves and the whole industry.

And of course respect must work both ways.

If the riu or its investigators are investigating someone or something they need to recognise that many harness racing industry participants have attitudes that have been engrained in their mindset from decades of behaviors of previous generations.Things that at one time was deemed ok and the norm,which are no longer viewed that way. Its complicated,and the RIU investigators need to wrap their heads around that is what they are dealing with, and need to factor that in when they deal with anyone.Somehow do there job but be more aware of how they are effecting peoples lives.In no way should they ever back down from policing integrity,but do it with respect and compassion.

[LongOwner]

15 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Agreed Chief, they do seem 'unwilling to prosecute ' in NZ . you almost need a confession lol..... In Aus they DID prosecute with the phone text and especially BETTING evidence which 'high-lighted' the fraud going on.

Race-fixing in Aus is now called Match -fixing and is a criminal offence. You are arrested by police, It isn't an in-house penalty anymore controlled by stipes or anything . 

YES !! betting stings still happen. We had many in my day too.  Usually just involved a good horse going to the front . No other drivers/ trainers were paid (as far as I know) .....  Race fixing involves 2 (or more) runners being driven in a manner to favour the 'Plunge' horse. as you know . these are the ones INCA and Aus authorities are interested in. 

To Galah , myself and others that have driven races  we can spot those, compared to a plunge runner backed from 4's to even money because we know it is a good fast horse.

The Inca case(s) had/has no foundation as there is no money trail , no fixing and no proof of fixing .

It started by a public complaint that should of/could of been dealt with by the RIU.

Instead they went on a jealous crusade and called in the Serious Crime Unit who could not find the evidence to conclude match fixing . 
 

Everything else is outside the narrow warrant - race fixing.

As Chief  said to chase some for a few party pills - we will be talking about it in 3 years time as it will get clogged down in the courts.

[LongOwner]

10 minutes ago, the galah said:

And i  agree with that.

That must be one of the lessons learnt.

If the RIU think a drive is dodgy,they must be seen to have the confidence to be investigating it themselves,whatever the outcome.Appropriate action from them must be a factor in acting as a major deterrent. Go back a few years and the previous approach of the RIU was that of not wishing to rock the boat because of the fear of criticism from within the industry,and simply because it was easier.

But importantly there also needs to be a recognition from factions within the industry that if your going to show no respect to those who's job it is to police the rules,then that attitude will have destructive results for themselves and the whole industry.

And of course respect must work both ways.

If the riu or its investigators are investigating someone or something they need to recognise that many harness racing industry participants have attitudes that have been engrained in their mindset from decades of behaviors of previous generations.Things that at one time was deemed ok and the norm,which are no longer viewed that way. Its complicated,and the RIU investigators need to wrap their heads around that is what they are dealing with, and need to factor that in when they deal with anyone.Somehow do there job but be more aware of how they are effecting peoples lives.In no way should they ever back down from policing integrity,but do it with respect and compassion.

The problem NZ Harness have is the RIU have, under the present and past leadership and present staff/stipes, created a bad cop program with arrogance - ex starter come stipe is an example .

RIU have to have respect and behave with integrity and so do trainer & drivers - it is a two way thing .
 

The RIU drove a wedge between the groups and encouraged division in the trainer ranks and if there are no changes in RIU personnel it will never change.

[Brodie]

1 hour ago, With A Dream said:

Just like Bruce Hutton who planted evidence in the Crew murder case, the problem is these crooked cops are never held to account so it keeps on happening

Some cops are more interested in getting a conviction than finding the truth.  Bruce Hutton did enormous damage to the reputation of the police and opened peoples  eyes to their sometimes  corrupt investigations. 

As the late and well respected QC Peter Williams once said, Bruce Hutton should have gone to prison for obstructing justice. Unfortunately it is evident it wasn't to be  an isolated case.  

I think you better confirm to all of us that the Bruce Hutton you are talking about is not the harness trainer Bruce Hutton?

[Brodie]

The Justice system in NZ is broken.

The BS it takes to get a murderer, rapist etc. to trial and convicted is years.

The court is clogged up with with the same dickheads continually offending and they are as guilty as sin and the Judges remand them  for future hearings just like the BS that has happened in this INCA crap!!

The Police are no longer respected in NZ for their dastardly actions  of planting evidence etc.

Their behaviour in Wellington earlier in the year of beating up law abiding protestors was abhorrent and a very black day in NZ history.

Racing integrity Unit have acted very poorly and need to remove the INTEGRITY from their name!

This has affected too many innocent people involved in harness racing!

Edited June 8, 2022 by Brodie

[Gammalite]

45 minutes ago, LongOwner said:

The Inca case(s) had/has no foundation as there is no money trail , no fixing and no proof of fixing .

It started by a public complaint that should of/could of been dealt with by the RIU.

Instead they went on a jealous crusade and called in the Serious Crime Unit who could not find the evidence to conclude match fixing . 

Fair enough. No money Trail through betting at corporates almost certainly means " why would it be a race-fix?" so why perservere chasing it as such . a No Win situation for sure.......

You do need to investigate things that a complaint is lodged about to a degree. Many sexual assault cases are impossible to adjudicate as evidence is very sketchy , but the investigation still needs to happen , even though a No Win situation seems the imminent result on a lot of occasion. 

Personally I think the social media cry of 'planted' evidence by 'corrupt'  officials in (INCA) etc is a bit much. How the hell would any of these social media experts know what was planted where ? etc.... seems rubbish to me.

Agreed though , If NO evidence to proceed to trial . DROP IT , and 'Next Case please'.. bound to be more Alfords ? lol...

[LongOwner]

3 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Fair enough. No money Trail through betting at corporates almost certainly means " why would it be a race-fix?" so why perservere chasing it as such . a No Win situation for sure.......

You do need to investigate things that a complaint is lodged about to a degree. Many sexual assault cases are impossible to adjudicate as evidence is very sketchy , but the investigation still needs to happen , even though a No Win situation seems the imminent result on a lot of occasion. 

Personally I think the social media cry of 'planted' evidence by 'corrupt'  officials in (INCA) etc is a bit much. How the hell would any of these social media experts know what was planted where ? etc.... seems rubbish to me.

Agreed though , If NO evidence to proceed to trial . DROP IT , and 'Next Case please'.. bound to be more Alfords ? lol...

I cannot recall anyone saying there was planted evidence - I don’t know how you plant evidence for a fixing betting case.

Nor drugs planted .

The only thing I have noticed - people like myself who strongly consider the whole thing has  no wheels as no evidence of fixing plus some stipes were/are on a crusade proven by emails they have written to the police.

Then there are those who are feeding The Press and believe all charged are all guilty as the NZ Police can do no wrong and so keep feeding the RIU and the fire with falsehoods .

Those feeding the fire have not worked out there are good trainers and useless trainers -  some don’t have it. The coach of a third division team in Auckland is not the same standard/professionalism as Steve Hansen.
 

Study history and the cream / skill of a trainer and driver comes to the top but the jealous group will not recognise it.

[Chief Stipe]

16 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Personally I think the social media cry of 'planted' evidence by 'corrupt'  officials in (INCA) etc is a bit much.

I think you have slightly misunderstood.  The RIB investigator leading the charge on INCA was involved in a major case of wrongful prosecution.  That prosecution has been overturned by the courts.

As for INCA there is evidence that a similar misalignment in joining the dots has occurred.

[Chief Stipe]

5 minutes ago, LongOwner said:

Those feeding the fire have not worked out there are good trainers and useless trainers -  some don’t have it. The coach of a third division team in Auckland is not the same standard/professionalism as Steve Hansen.

Exactly and the same group are yelling "Sundees Son must be on PED'S to break the world record by so many seconds"!  Yet they neglect to mention that the first three were within less than half a second of each other.  Or that a couple of weeks later Sundees Son gets run down and beaten!

[the galah]

 

2 hours ago, LongOwner said:

 

Study history and the cream / skill of a trainer and driver comes to the top but the jealous group will not recognise it.

you've come to your conclusions based no doubt on your own observations and experiences.I don't doubt you have grounds for having the strong held views that you express.

But as to the jealous argument you put forward as being the basis for an opposing view, as you have done here,i believe its not always an accurate explanation. 

My own personal experience from about 25 years ago of having a horse i trained,who was a red hot favorite, pulled by a high profile,stoned driver was an experience i won't forget. At the time it was a waste of time referring the matter to officialdom as i didn't have a good opinion of them, besides thats not how i would do things anyway.

But the point is being a highly skilled/successful trainer or driver doesn't automatically mean you possess total honesty.That comment doesn't relate to anyone current.