Meeting Tomorrow

[Rangatira]

[Gammalite]

Why is he stunned I wonder ?  was a tried and proven formula for a century in some of those races.

I don't mind if they have them mobile FFA 3200m in those 4 races (so they all get away safely) and random barrier.

but if running as a STANDING START (as they are now) might as well give all the runners a chance ?  by putting the Previous winners of those races 10m and 20 m behind ? shirly?

Sundee's Son and Self Assured just keep on winning them one after another otherwise. (having said that Self Assured did get beat in the last NZ Cup into 2nd place , and Sundee did get 'bolted' the other day by Tony and BFB in the Rowe Cup. Go figure lol...😅)

[Michael]

13 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Why is he stunned I wonder ?  was a tried and proven formula for a century in some of those races.

I don't mind if they have them mobile FFA 3200m in those 4 races (so they all get away safely) and random barrier.

but if running as a STANDING START (as they are now) might as well give all the runners a chance ?  by putting the Previous winners of those races 10m and 20 m behind ? shirly?

Sundee's Son and Self Assured just keep on winning them one after another otherwise. (having said that Self Assured did get beat in the last NZ Cup into 2nd place , and Sundee did get 'bolted' the other day by Tony and BFB in the Rowe Cup. Go figure lol...😅)

So just to clarify it Gammalite

You don’t think that the best horse should be allowed to win the New Zealand Cup from even marks?

As you have been asked before, should Usain Bolt start 3 metres behind in the Olympic 100 metre Final if he won it 4 years earlier?

Should Tyson Fury start 5 points behind in boxing matches?

 

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Michael

[the galah]

Seems just a matter of common sense to me.

As gammalite has pointed out,putting the best horses on handicaps won't stop them winning. History clearly shows that.

What having handicaps used to do is make the race much more of a spectacle. Seeing horses clearly superior step to the front early in the race,has been making the recent editions of the big races races just a procession, not an actual competitive affair fit for the showcasing of the best of nz harness horses.

Only the likes of M Guerin or A Hamilton think its fantastic that a horse like sundees son kicks the heads in of the rest of the field  in record time.Also when a stable has the best 3 or 4 pacers,they just dominate through team tactics from the front,and everyone knows who they are going to give the best runs.

Also an obvious observation is that hot favorites discourage punters.

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by the galah

[Gammalite]

5 hours ago, Michael said:

You don’t think that the best horse should be allowed to win the New Zealand Cup from even marks?

Correct !! that is clarified then.

Good enough for Verry Eleegant and Makybe Diva to be attempted to be handicapped out of the race in Caulfield and Melbourne Cups ?????  but still win/won . Handicaps are done in COMPARISON to their rivals . 

Usain Bolt and Tyson are human athletes , so nothing to do with horses. you can argue with yourself about them. 

Now WHY shouldn't the Time-honoured Nz Cup, Auckland Cup (still both surely handicaps at the gallops over there?) be treated differently to the galloping version . ? Also Rowe Cup and Dominion for trotters . Tougher than gallopers some of those horses..... they can handle it Michael. (Sundees Son near best trotter ever possibly) 

3200m is Loooong enough to make up handicaps .

good enough for the gallops , good enough for the pacers and trotters I say , in those 2 mile races. Why should Sundee and Self Assured being gifted the races (when bucket-loads of champions weren't by being adequately handicapped ???// ?) 

[Unhinged]

Stunned is possibly the fact the markets for this race have been open for quite some time both here and Australia,  obviously the TAB will be refunding all bets. I'm not saying it shouldn't be a handicap but holding this over till next year makes alot more sense surly, maybe even handicap the Mares into the cup like The Race.

[the galah]

4 hours ago, Unhinged said:

Stunned is possibly the fact the markets for this race have been open for quite some time both here and Australia,  obviously the TAB will be refunding all bets. I'm not saying it shouldn't be a handicap but holding this over till next year makes alot more sense surly, maybe even handicap the Mares into the cup like The Race.

If it is to be the case, then refunding any bets already taken makes sense,as you suggest..

It makes no sense to not make a decision simply because markets have already been open,as the amount of money already bet must be next to nothing you would think.

The mares handicap suggestion is interesting.i'm not sure how that would work though given the horses who they would be giving handicaps,would have already won one of the big races which would have been run as free for alls. So any handicap would have been earned,whether they be a mare or not.

Edited July 26, 2022 by the galah

[Michael]

5 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Correct !! that is clarified then.

Good enough for Verry Eleegant and Makybe Diva to be attempted to be handicapped out of the race in Caulfield and Melbourne Cups ?????  but still win/won . Handicaps are done in COMPARISON to their rivals . 

Usain Bolt and Tyson are human athletes , so nothing to do with horses. you can argue with yourself about them. 

Now WHY shouldn't the Time-honoured Nz Cup, Auckland Cup (still both surely handicaps at the gallops over there?) be treated differently to the galloping version . ? Also Rowe Cup and Dominion for trotters . Tougher than gallopers some of those horses..... they can handle it Michael. (Sundees Son near best trotter ever possibly) 

3200m is Loooong enough to make up handicaps .

good enough for the gallops , good enough for the pacers and trotters I say , in those 2 mile races. Why should Sundee and Self Assured being gifted the races (when bucket-loads of champions weren't by being adequately handicapped ???// ?) 

Utter rubbish Gammalite

In respect of the Pacing races being considered Handicaps I assume that these will not be done in comparison to their rivals, but instead will be set Handicaps based on previous Cup wins

Your comparison with gallops is spurious. The best gallops benchmarks are the WFA such as the Cox Plate

Why do you deftly deflect the question about Usain Bolt? What is the difference? He was clearly the best and he had previously won the Olympic Final. Why does "being a human" make a difference other than highlighting your reluctance to answer?

Catherine MacDonald's comments tell the story, "the best horse still MAY win". It may not too because he may start off 20 meters and go round the field and be beaten a nose by a horse having a "Rondel" run.

It's pointless debating with you because you won't answer a question where you don't like your own answer

To me the Cups are for the best horses and the best horse, if he's too good, deserves the crown

The Cup shouldn't be a race where the result is artificially influenced to give every horse an equal chance which is the principle of handicapping. It should be a race to find the best

I doubt that any return from increased betting would even cover the Independent Director's fees the Industry has had foisted upon us

You even sum it up yourself (when bucket-loads of champions weren't by being adequately handicapped ???// ?)  You are saying that champions who should have won the Cup didn't because they were handicapped out of winning. 

Edited July 26, 2022 by Michael

[the galah]

26 minutes ago, Michael said:

Utter rubbish Gammalite

In respect of the Pacing races being considered Handicaps I assume that these will not be done in comparison to their rivals, but instead will be set Handicaps based on previous Cup wins

Your comparison with gallops is spurious. The best gallops benchmarks are the WFA such as the Cox Plate

Why do you deftly deflect the question about Usain Bolt? What is the difference? He was clearly the best and he had previously won the Olympic Final. Why does "being a human" make a difference other than highlighting your reluctance to answer?

Catherine MacDonald's comments tell the story, "the best horse still MAY win". It may not too because he may start off 20 meters and go round the field and be beaten a nose by a horse having a "Rondel" run

It's pointless debating with you because you won't answer a question where you don't like your own answer

To me the Cups are for the best horses and the best horse, if he's too good, deserves the crown

I doubt that any return from increased betting would even cover the Independent Director's fees the Industry has had foisted upon us

 

No doubt you recognise that potential turnover is a significant factor when it comes to harness racings viability. 

Using the example of an athlete who no one would bet against being beaten doesn't seem to have factored in turnover as being relevant.

In the last paragraph you even seem to admit turnover would increase,but i'm not sure the sigificance of"the independent directors fees"  you mention has to the current subject.

Edited July 26, 2022 by the galah

[Gammalite]

8 minutes ago, Michael said:

Your comparison with gallops is spurious. The best gallops benchmarks are the WFA such as the Cox Plate

Why do you deftly deflect the question about Usain Bolt? What is the difference? He was clearly the best and he had previously won the Olympic Final. Why does "being a human" make a difference other than highlighting your reluctance to answer?

 'utter rubbish' as you want to put it. why do i bother then ? my opinion is fine .  

Human athletics is NOTHING to DO with horse racing. Galloper's are horses (like Pacers and Trotters) mate. ?? agreed?  They have everything to do with it . They are handicapped every weekend ? agreed? To make the races more even chance for all !! agreed? 

Just because you think the Cox Plate is a better race than the Melbourne Cup .who cares. It's a big race as are the Caulfield Cup, Nz Cup and Auckland Cup ? Lol . good grief. WE ARE Talking about HANDICAPS .

I'm sure most readers can see the Comparison to Weighting the Better gallopers >>>  to handicapping the Better Pacers and Trotters to have a level chance for AS MANY RUNNERS AS POSSIBLE . That's racing.

A guy running at the Olympics ???  hahahaha... Do  your orange 's look like apples  Michael . NOTHING TO DO WITH HANDICAPS in the Nz Cup, Akld Cup ,Rowe Cup or Dominion.  

Important sentence Michael , is the Highlighted one above >>>>>>>>>>>>> 

 

 

[Brodie]

Not that I bet into the group races or the bigger stakes races, but handicapping would actually make the races more fair!

Part of the reason so many owners sell their horses overseas is that it is difficult to make money racing horses in NZ.

If the top horses were handicapped in the stands it would give more horses a chance.

[the galah]

15 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Not that I bet into the group races or the bigger stakes races, but handicapping would actually make the races more fair!

Part of the reason so many owners sell their horses overseas is that it is difficult to make money racing horses in NZ.

If the top horses were handicapped in the stands it would give more horses a chance.

Spoken from the perspective of both the punter and the connections of those who may be weighing up whether to compete in a race where they previously realistically had little chance of beating the likes of sundees son or bolt for brilliance or self assured.

Bolt for brilliance won an 8 horse rowe cup where a couple of loose class horses seemed to be in there for no other reason than to make up the numbers.Those couple of horses who just were making up the numbers ran over 100m behind the others,so in reality the same horses will probably still dominate even from 10 -15m handicaps.Handicaps will be harder for a pacer than the totters.The good trotters probably need a 20m handicap to give the others any chance.

Edited July 26, 2022 by the galah

[Gammalite]

32 minutes ago, Michael said:

In respect of the Pacing races being considered Handicaps I assume that these will not be done in comparison to their rivals, but instead will be set Handicaps based on previous Cup wins

Every day somewhere Pacing races are 'Handicapped ' even if mobile starts with preferential draws , lifetime earnings , all sorts of things Juniors onboard, sex and age , you name it they handicap it .....Mikey.  ALREADY happening. Won't hurt the BIG PLAYERS in these BIG races . Put Sundee on 20m IMO lol....

They are running those FEATURE races in this discussion from a Stand. NZ Cup, AKLD Cup, Rowe Cup , and the Dominion H'cap. (sorry that's what it used to be called anyway)

Yulestar, Lordship, Highland Fling, Cardigan Bay, Il Vicolo, Luxury Liner, False Step, Johnny Globe, Harold Logan , Elsu, Christian Cullen, Chokin, Christopher Vance, Young Quinn  , Arapaho, Lyell Creek, Diamond Field, No Response, Easton Light, Single Cash ,Take A Moment , David Moss, Tussle , Scotch Notch, Scotch Tar, Stormy Morn and heaps more great horses ALL won these 4 Races off Handicaps of 10m or more . It makes these races great !!!! 

 

[Taku Umanga]

9 hours ago, Michael said:

In respect of the Pacing races being considered Handicaps I assume that these will not be done in comparison to their rivals, but instead will be set Handicaps based on previous Cup wins

Imagine if it was in comparison to rivals - last year the rating spread was between 74 and 120 ..... Self Assured would've been off 50m (at least)!

[Gammalite]

8 hours ago, Taku Umanga said:

Imagine if it was in comparison to rivals - last year the rating spread was between 74 and 120 ..... Self Assured would've been off 50m (at least)!

Well these races for be the Open class only . Rowe Cup was Very unfortunately a Very small field this year. Why take on Sundees Son and Bolt for Brilliance off the front ???  

EXAMPLE : 'Doff your Cap' connections gave up and just sent him off overseas after his very last start in NZ. (the dominion last year at Addington) which absolutely 'Fried ' a few horses with Sundee trotting 3.56 2 miles. (should of been off 20m) Bolt for Brilliance after winning the 2 mile Rowe Cup should be on 10m now. just makes sense to me. Doff your Cap now doing better with a fairer handicap in Aus. I Feel sorry for the connections losing their horse really 😪.  

Mark Purdon DIDN"T even Bother starting Oscar Bonevena , even after he Won a Group 1 trot just days before the Dominion beating Bolt For Brilliance  ??##??. ALARM BELLS should be ringing saying there is something wrong with the Dominion handicapping when a Group 1 winner gives it the Flick ? ?? terrible state of affairs. Oscar won a support race off 20m instead , on Dominion Day. 

SELF ASSURED with his 2020 Nz Cup win and 2022 Auckland Cup wins over 2 mile stands should be on 20m this year IMO. 

[greyhound]

Most of the best NZ cup and Dominion races back in the day were when horses were handicapped exciting to watch.  not like nowadays when the hot fav goes to the lead and its a procession. Best decision in a long time and will be truly good punting races

[Davis]

2 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Well these races for be the Open class only . Rowe Cup was Very unfortunately a Very small field this year. Why take on Sundees Son and Bolt for Brilliance off the front ???  

EXAMPLE : 'Doff your Cap' connections gave up and just sent him off overseas after his very last start in NZ. (the dominion last year at Addington) which absolutely 'Fried ' a few horses with Sundee trotting 3.56 2 miles. (should of been off 20m) Bolt for Brilliance after winning the 2 mile Rowe Cup should be on 10m now. just makes sense to me. Doff your Cap now doing better with a fairer handicap in Aus. I Feel sorry for the connections losing their horse really 😪.  

Mark Purdon DIDN"T even Bother starting Oscar Bonevena , even after he Won a Group 1 trot just days before the Dominion beating Bolt For Brilliance  ??##??. ALARM BELLS should be ringing saying there is something wrong with the Dominion handicapping when a Group 1 winner gives it the Flick ? ?? terrible state of affairs. Oscar won a support race off 20m instead , on Dominion Day. 

SELF ASSURED with his 2020 Nz Cup win and 2022 Auckland Cup wins over 2 mile stands should be on 20m this year IMO. 

All true  but I think Bolt For Brilliance has gone to another level. 

I am ambivalent about handicapping G1 races. It worked back in the day because then were six or seven good horses in the field that could win. Today, that's not the case with in NZ at least  C5-6 slow coaches getting a start in the NZ Trotting Cup. WTF? Back in the day when handicapping existed you had to win ten races to get to Cup class to even get a start in the race. 

Frankly, I don't think a 10m handicap would make much difference to Sundee's Son or Bolt For Brilliance. Pacers could be different with Copy That and Self Assured on 10m and Majestic Cruiser off the front. That would be interesting as Majestic Cruiser is as good as that pair.

[Michael]

20 hours ago, the galah said:

No doubt you recognise that potential turnover is a significant factor when it comes to harness racings viability. 

Using the example of an athlete who no one would bet against being beaten doesn't seem to have factored in turnover as being relevant.

In the last paragraph you even seem to admit turnover would increase,but i'm not sure the sigificance of"the independent directors fees"  you mention has to the current subject.

I will rephrase it Galah

I doubt there would be any increased T/O whatsoever

I would even think they there might be a reduction due to reduced multi's

[Michael]

20 hours ago, Gammalite said:

 'utter rubbish' as you want to put it. why do i bother then ? my opinion is fine .  

Human athletics is NOTHING to DO with horse racing. Galloper's are horses (like Pacers and Trotters) mate. ?? agreed?  They have everything to do with it . They are handicapped every weekend ? agreed? To make the races more even chance for all !! agreed? 

Just because you think the Cox Plate is a better race than the Melbourne Cup .who cares. It's a big race as are the Caulfield Cup, Nz Cup and Auckland Cup ? Lol . good grief. WE ARE Talking about HANDICAPS .

I'm sure most readers can see the Comparison to Weighting the Better gallopers >>>  to handicapping the Better Pacers and Trotters to have a level chance for AS MANY RUNNERS AS POSSIBLE . That's racing.

A guy running at the Olympics ???  hahahaha... Do  your orange 's look like apples  Michael . NOTHING TO DO WITH HANDICAPS in the Nz Cup, Akld Cup ,Rowe Cup or Dominion.  

Important sentence Michael , is the Highlighted one above >>>>>>>>>>>>> 

 

 

You seem to be missing the point Gammalite

I can see why handicapping gives the poorer horses a better chance so try to comprhend that that is not my issue

My issue is the NZ Cup should not be a race where the poorer horse's chances are boosted

It is the Cup, it is for the best, the best should win it. If the best horse is too good then great, he deserves to win

My apples look like apples Gammalite, the comparison with Usain Bolt is perfectly sane. You can bet on the Olympic 100m Final so why not the analogy?

[Michael]

12 hours ago, Taku Umanga said:

Imagine if it was in comparison to rivals - last year the rating spread was between 74 and 120 ..... Self Assured would've been off 50m (at least)!

Gammalite probably thinks that would be great

[Michael]

20 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Every day somewhere Pacing races are 'Handicapped ' even if mobile starts with preferential draws , lifetime earnings , all sorts of things Juniors onboard, sex and age , you name it they handicap it .....Mikey.  ALREADY happening. Won't hurt the BIG PLAYERS in these BIG races . Put Sundee on 20m IMO lol....

They are running those FEATURE races in this discussion from a Stand. NZ Cup, AKLD Cup, Rowe Cup , and the Dominion H'cap. (sorry that's what it used to be called anyway)

Yulestar, Lordship, Highland Fling, Cardigan Bay, Il Vicolo, Luxury Liner, False Step, Johnny Globe, Harold Logan , Elsu, Christian Cullen, Chokin, Christopher Vance, Young Quinn  , Arapaho, Lyell Creek, Diamond Field, No Response, Easton Light, Single Cash ,Take A Moment , David Moss, Tussle , Scotch Notch, Scotch Tar, Stormy Morn and heaps more great horses ALL won these 4 Races off Handicaps of 10m or more . It makes these races great !!!! 

 

We can agree to disagree

You are allowed your opinion just as I am allowed to have mine

In all your posts you completely miss my point

I am not against Handicapping

I am against Handicapping in a race that is effectively the "NZ Championship"

Pointless anyway, as I don't think there are sufficient idiots faround for the change to be made

I note that HRNZ want to also change the invercargill Cup to a Handicap. Pity it already is isn't it? Sort of proves that not much homework has been done

[Gammalite]

1 hour ago, Davis said:

Frankly, I don't think a 10m handicap would make much difference to Sundee's Son or Bolt For Brilliance. Pacers could be different with Copy That and Self Assured on 10m

I always found being behind the others (10m or 20m handicap)  an advantage to be honest. You could see what everyone was doing and nobody was gunna swing sideways and sit in your gig. (they used to pack em tight off the front and there wasn't much room) 

[Gammalite]

1 hour ago, Michael said:

In all your posts you completely miss my point

I am not against Handicapping

I am against Handicapping in a race that is effectively the "NZ Championship"

No worries mate. I love handicaps so it blurs my vision . I love every runner having a chance. I love that you enjoy the great race too. sorry I couldn't get your point but these things happen. All the best.

 

1 hour ago, Michael said:

Gammalite probably thinks that would be great

I think the Nz Cup should be just for Cup class horses. The Group 1's in Aus are hard to get into. Wish it was the same for you there. If I had a good trotter (or Pacer) I certainly wouldn't Flatten it chasing Sundees Son and Self Assured over 2 miles . I'd go to Aus . as Majestic Man ultimately did . and he got 2nd in the last Interdominion Trot bless him. Flat as a pancake taking on Sundee last year in the Dominion . Didn't even bother with the Rowe Cup this year recently ???

that's A horse as good as him too. very sad really what is happening. That's the point I was trying to say anyway. 

You can have a Good horse like him (majestic Man) and still be No chance of winning the Rowe or Dominion ... why bother starting and wrecking your horse?? . Lazarus in his 2nd year at NZ Cup, Self Assured and Sundees Son All are going PHENOMINAL TIMES off the front marks. The rivals*** are NO CHANCE .   

rivals*** except (Copy That and Bolt For Brilliance obviously)  

Edited July 27, 2022 by Gammalite
add

[Michael]

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

I always found being behind the others (10m or 20m handicap)  an advantage to be honest. You could see what everyone was doing and nobody was gunna swing sideways and sit in your gig. (they used to pack em tight off the front and there wasn't much room) 

If you think it’s such an advantage Gammalite I’ll PM you Mark Purdon, Jean Feiss, Ray Green, Merv Butterwoth and Jason Grimson’s phone numbers so that you can ring them and share your knowledge because apparently if the conditions are changed to a Handicap then Self Assured, Copy That and Majestic Cruiser will all bypass the NZ Cup

Will that help turnover?

Will that be good for the profile of Cup Week?

I’d say no but that it would be great for the Inter Dominions in Australia. 
 

However no doubt you’ll have an opinion and be able to explain why the absence of those 3 horses will actually be good for the NZ Cup

 

[Michael]

3 hours ago, greyhound said:

Most of the best NZ cup and Dominion races back in the day were when horses were handicapped exciting to watch.  not like nowadays when the hot fav goes to the lead and its a procession. Best decision in a long time and will be truly good punting races

It’s not a decision and I predict it will result in an embarrassing back flip