3rd Telfer horse dies

[the galah]

Seasider,a first starter for the telfer barn became the 3rd telfer horse to die in the last 4 months at the racetrack.This follows on from the lightly raced Cya doit at auckland and another first starter in Alta Debonair at addington.

All just collapsed and died after racing. Why is that happening?

Edited September 8, 2022 by the galah

[paleface adios]

14 hours ago, the galah said:

Seasider,a first starter for the telfer barn became the 3rd telfer horse to die in the last 4 months at the racetrack.This follows on from the lightly raced Cya doit at auckland and another first starter in Alta Debonair at addington.

All just collapsed and died after racing. Why is that happening?

you kiwis don't have snakes tho........

[Chief Stipe]

On 9/09/2022 at 7:59 AM, the galah said:

All just collapsed and died after racing. Why is that happening?

Trained too hard?

[Gammalite]

On 9/9/2022 at 5:59 AM, the galah said:

All just collapsed

Horses must of Been watching the NZ cricket team matches this week? 😉

playing in Cairns a three match one day series. Black Caps All out for 82 collapse in 33 overs Thursday. 🏆

[the galah]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Trained too hard?

Can't see it being anything to do with how they are trained myself.

An over trained horse gets tired and goes slower. The 3 telfer horses have all done the same thing. They all of a sudden go from travelling ok,to stopping to a walk,struggle a few hundred more metres,then collapse and die.

I realise it is unfair of me or anyone,to say someone can't form their own opinions,but it irks me that on trackside,media coverage and then some comments on here,people just focus on the results on the track and ignore something which in my view is of significance.

There is a significant pattern to say the Telfer stable is sending horses to the races which are suffering unintended and unexpected consequences as a result of actions being taken at the Telfer stable.

3 unrelated horses dropping dead at the end of their races in identical circumstances in 4 months is an obvious pattern. It is not a one off medical event. Its a pattern.

There is cause and effect here.

Its a stain on harness racing that people can be so causal about it in my opinion.

[Gammalite]

18 minutes ago, the galah said:

3 unrelated horses dropping dead at the end of their races in identical circumstances in 4 months is an obvious pattern. It is not a one off medical event. Its a pattern.

There is cause and effect here.

Its a stain on harness racing that people can be so causal about it in my opinion.

You are being very tough here . I would be 100% sure that Amanda and Steve Telfer are Leaving No Stone Unturned to solve this mystery. Horses live >> horses die . happens every day in various ways. Waller lost 3 horses in a month recently. (but he does have a fair few)

No one is being 'casual'. Tens of thousands $$ are spent on these great equine animals , and care and professionilism is paramount in getting the best out of their racetrack performance. Amanda and Steve Telfer are doing an Amazing job, A 'PATTERN of Winning' a Galah might say !!  well done to them. 

 

[the galah]

37 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

You are being very tough here . I would be 100% sure that Amanda and Steve Telfer are Leaving No Stone Unturned to solve this mystery. Horses live >> horses die . happens every day in various ways. Waller lost 3 horses in a month recently. (but he does have a fair few)

No one is being 'casual'. Tens of thousands $$ are spent on these great equine animals , and care and professionilism is paramount in getting the best out of their racetrack performance. Amanda and Steve Telfer are doing an Amazing job, A 'PATTERN of Winning' a Galah might say !!  well done to them. 

 

You say ..Horses live,horses die.Happens every day in various ways. 

This didn't happen in various ways. It happened in the same exact way each time.

Waller lost 3 horses in a month?How,because  you have to compare apples with apples..I await your reply on that one.

How many individual runners would the telfer barn have had in the last 4 months. My guess would be around 50-60. Now 3 less.

Of course the Telfers will have a very good idea of what has been the cause. 

You say no one is being casual. Well ,my opinion is i interpret your reply as being casual.And of course  many will treat it the same way.

The telfer barn is the biggest operation in nz. The main buyers at the sales. That is why industry  leadership should be ensuring  a proper investigation of the cause.

It will be the opposite,as judging from recent comments,industry leaders will put as main priority how their actions may be perceived by industry participants.Thats no leadership at all in other words.There is an element of possible animal cruelty,irrespective of whether it be unintentional,to this.

Just ask yourself this. If it was a less successful trainer who had the same thing happen then what would people be saying?Double standards exist within this industry from those who should not have them.. And i'm not referring to the enforcement arm when i say that.

Edited September 9, 2022 by the galah

[Gammalite]

35 minutes ago, the galah said:

If it was a less successful trainer who had the same thing happen then what would people be saying?Double standards exist within this industry

Well Cam Jones was watched very closely after the Alford affair. they were not successful trainers. The authorities did what they could to take action (for horses welfare)

37 minutes ago, the galah said:

Of course the Telfers will have a very good idea of what has been the cause.

Of Course ???? how would you know this ??? speculation. and inuendo . 

 

38 minutes ago, the galah said:

The telfer barn is the biggest operation in nz. The main buyers at the sales. That is why industry  leadership should be ensuring  a proper investigation of the cause

Proper Investigation ?? what does that involve Mt Galah. The stable gets Many many winners and the BEST WAY to show any 'Indescretions from the Rules of racing ' are swabs and blood tests from the stable runners. What other way is there ??? I would imagine a Blood Sample was taken from the deceased horses for the 'Peace of Mind' of Stewards (and also the Trainers and Owners) to see if something nasty is going on. 

Are you suspecting nobbling by someone?? It is up to the trainer to have 'Good' trustworthy staff and security to match.

If nobbled or drugged the horses urine and blood tests would show such Mr Galah , 

BTW if unlucky you can get 3 tyre punctures in a 4 month period as well. (or none) I like apples too. 

[the galah]

3 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Well Cam Jones was watched very closely after the Alford affair. they were not successful trainers. The authorities did what they could to take action (for horses welfare)

Of Course ???? how would you know this ??? speculation. and inuendo . 

 

Proper Investigation ?? what does that involve Mt Galah. The stable gets Many many winners and the BEST WAY to show any 'Indescretions from the Rules of racing ' are swabs and blood tests from the stable runners. What other way is there ??? I would imagine a Blood Sample was taken from the deceased horses for the 'Peace of Mind' of Stewards (and also the Trainers and Owners) to see if something nasty is going on. 

Are you suspecting nobbling by someone?? It is up to the trainer to have 'Good' trustworthy staff and security to match.

If nobbled or drugged the horses urine and blood tests would show such Mr Galah , 

BTW if unlucky you can get 3 tyre punctures in a 4 month period as well. (or none) I like apples too. 

I find it surprising that someone with a such a knowledge of horse racing and horse welfare would say that its reasonable to argue that these deaths are unrelated,part of racing and just coincidental.

No i am not suspecting nobbling. For that to happen someone would have to travel to both the north and south island training establishments. Its not a plausible argument.

Swabs and blood tests from the horses concerned no doubt have been taken,but your kidding yourself if you think that will guarantee to discover the reason.It may well give indications of the cause,or it may not.You should read what the USA investigative branches on the integrity side say as far as that subject goes.

So what is the likely cause here.

Well,a more plausible explanation than yours would be it is most likely that the administration of a treatment given with the intention of increasing performance,has not been effectively monitored by the stable concerned.The reason for that would be there is a significant cost involved in overseeing particular "treatments". For example some treatments given,are strongly recommended to have blood tests taken regularly immediately after work while the treatment is given over a month or so. That is to avoid too drastic a changes in the horse,which could result in the type of thing we have seen.

The double standards i refer to are HRNZ making a point of ensuring proper record keeping and proper oversight of the life of each horse,beyond their years on the racetrack,so as to try ensure they are properly and humanely cared for after racing. Yet,we have the type of thing i have referred to happening in plain sight.

One of the ways of drawing attention to things like this is through websites like this. 

Edited September 10, 2022 by the galah

[Taku Umanga]

Were autopsies ever carried out - stipes reports said they would be?

[Robalan]

I am sure if there is anything untoward occuring it will be discovered. I think it is difficult to regard the death of three horses in similar circumstance and over a short period of time as mere coincidence

[Honestjohn]

Over trained?.   although I've never experienced it with my nags.  Barns squeaky clean as far as I know.  I've been to the Auckland setup and found them very professional.  Although it was some years ago when a friend had  a horse there. I've had horses die of colic and a foal drop dead at 8 weeks. 

hj

[Chief Stipe]

On 10/09/2022 at 3:34 PM, the galah said:

Well,a more plausible explanation than yours would be it is most likely that the administration of a treatment given with the intention of increasing performance,has not been effectively monitored by the stable concerned.

Bullshit.

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Honestjohn said:

Over trained?.   although I've never experienced it with my nags.  Barns squeaky clean as far as I know.  I've been to the Auckland setup and found them very professional.  Although it was some years ago when a friend had  a horse there. I've had horses die of colic and a foal drop dead at 8 weeks. 

hj

So your suggesting a plausible explanation for in the last 4 months, the Telfer stable having a ratio of about 1 in every 20 horses they have taken to the races die,is because they are overtraining them.   

Do you really think the current leading stable in NZ don't know when they are over training their horses?Signs such as poor performance,fatigue or longer time to recover after fast work would be picked up straight away. Besides,why do you relate over training to how they died?

[the galah]

38 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Bullshit.

So you have suggested the  explanation is because they were over trained as well.That our leading stable over trains them to the point they drop dead.

Is that one of the advanced training skills you have referred to previously,that is required to become leading trainer?

Well chief,i know you think no one ever uses performance enhancers that testing won't pick up. You have stated that many times.

And i know your explanation for the large number of high profile trainers being outed in the USA in the last couple of years was because they were dumb enough to be duped by a vet who sold them what they thought were  performance enhancers, over several years,but in fact weren't because testing never picked anything up.

And you have stated several times that you believe that its a sign of a top trainer,when owners get big bills which show their horses blood has regularly been analysed and given other  treatments to peak their horse for the big days. And here i am suggesting that just maybe, that may have prevented these deaths .Make up your mind.

I've never said here that the telfer barn is doing anything illegal, but infer what you want,i don't care.

And you say i talk bullshit. 

Edited September 12, 2022 by the galah

[Gammalite]

36 minutes ago, the galah said:

Well chief,i know you think no one ever uses performance enhancers that testing won't pick up. You have stated that many times

Of course people use things that Swabbing and blood tests don't pick up . Has happened since time began. If it's NOT listed as Illegal (or tested for) you can use what you want !!!  I could put the missus perfume on them if I thought it would help.

If they use something like Milkshakes or crap like that , that is tested for anyone deserves what they get.

Yes I agree with CHief. You can train them too Hard. I've seen Vinnie Knight break a few down in training. Popular Alm broke a rear pedal bone once. Allstars have had a little bit of Attrition over the years that has been commented on . And now Telfers. ........

This is true BECAUSE they have GOOD FAST horses who go a lot harder than most of the grass track scrubbers you see ,that are Less likely to break down or strain something. The better faster horses were always the ones in 6 stables i've been in more likely to have a strain.

On 9/10/2022 at 1:34 PM, the galah said:

Well,a more plausible explanation than yours would be it is most likely that the administration of a treatment given with the intention of increasing performance,has not been effectively monitored by the stable concerned.

 

44 minutes ago, the galah said:

've never said here that the telfer barn is doing anything illegal, but infer what you want,i don't care.

You are the one inferring it ??? not Chief or anyone else.  Here's some hypocrisy from your comments with these 2 quotes above. AND How is that explanation Plausible ??? you're just guessing and being speculative. Or do you know them and been in contact?  

 

[Honestjohn]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

So your suggesting a plausible explanation for in the last 4 months, the Telfer stable having a ratio of about 1 in every 20 horses they have taken to the races die,is because they are overtraining them.   

Do you really think the current leading stable in NZ don't know when they are over training their horses?Signs such as poor performance,fatigue or longer time to recover after fast work would be picked up straight away. Besides,why do you relate over training to how they died?

Hence the question mark.  I don't know why.  What are you insinuating here? 

Hj

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, the galah said:

So you have suggested the  explanation is because they were over trained as well.That our leading stable over trains them to the point they drop dead

I was being facetious however the explanation I gave is more plausible than yours.  Not that either is particularly plausible.

2 hours ago, the galah said:

Is that one of the advanced training skills you have referred to previously,that is required to become leading trainer?

The top trainers do work their horses within an inch of too much.  At the top level a 1 or 2% difference in performance can mean the difference between winning and being an also ran.  Been like that forever.  More evident in the Thoroughbred industry where the attrition rate is very high.

2 hours ago, the galah said:

Well chief,i know you think no one ever uses performance enhancers that testing won't pick up. You have stated that many times.

Correct.  There is no scientific/testing reason why PED's can't be picked up.  But in NZ the Racing testing lab is only marginally more advanced than the one in the USA.  That said if there was a hint or suspicion that a stable was using an unknown PED then there are ample labs in NZ or overseas that could identify a substance that was not "normal".  Of course then the question is if that substance was a PED.

2 hours ago, the galah said:

And i know your explanation for the large number of high profile trainers being outed in the USA in the last couple of years was because they were dumb enough to be duped by a vet who sold them what they thought were  performance enhancers, over several years,but in fact weren't because testing never picked anything up.

Correct.  Where are the positives?  The charges and sentences were focused on fraud. 

2 hours ago, the galah said:

And you have stated several times that you believe that its a sign of a top trainer,when owners get big bills which show their horses blood has regularly been analysed and given other  treatments to peak their horse for the big days. And here i am suggesting that just maybe, that may have prevented these deaths .Make up your mind.

But you didn't suggest that did you?  You inferred that there was illegal activity happening.

2 hours ago, the galah said:

I've never said here that the telfer barn is doing anything illegal, but infer what you want,i don't care.

You never do.  YOU just infer it.  But there is never any evidence!  Of course we then come back to your conspiracy bullshit that they must be using something that is undetectable.

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Of course people use things that Swabbing and blood tests don't pick up . Has happened since time began. If it's NOT listed as Illegal (or tested for) you can use what you want !!!  I could put the missus perfume on them if I thought it would help.

Not true anymore @Gammalite.  Anything and everything is detectable nowadays.  For example I worked on a project that discovered in a very short space of time a unique identifier in Manuka Honey that had never been identified before.  It took some more lab work to determine it's chemical structure but it was done.  That chemical was subsequently called Leptosperin which is a derivative of the Latin name for the Manuka plant.  I managed the project that helped isolate this chemical.  Basically an unknown marker was found using Spectrophotometry and then further lab  work was done to isolate the actual chemical.  https://www.fera.co.uk/leptosperin-manuka-honey.html#:~:text=Leptosperin is a naturally occurring,Japanese researcher Kato in 2014.

[the galah]

 

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

Yes I agree with CHief. You can train them too Hard. I've seen Vinnie Knight break a few down in training. Popular Alm broke a rear pedal bone once. Allstars have had a little bit of Attrition over the years that has been commented on . And now Telfers. ........

 

If you or anyone honestly do believe that is a result of over training,then how could you possibly have any respect for a stable that does that.

Thats got to be worse than the cause i have suggested,as the signs of an over trained horse would be there before they took it to the races.I at least give the telfer stable credit for having the ability to recognise how to train a horse properly. 

Tell me when have the all stars ever lost 3,2 or even 1 horse in similar circumstances on the racetrack.You linking the all stars stable to what has happened with the telfer horses is unfair.

Tell me,have you even bothered to watch the videos of the said races. I can only imagine what it would have been like to watch a racehorse stagger its way back into the stables ,then drop dead,or be at auckland the night the telfer horse collapsed and dieda few metres from the winning post.

2 hours ago, Gammalite said:

 

You are the one inferring it ??? not Chief or anyone else.  Here's some hypocrisy from your comments with these 2 quotes above. AND How is that explanation Plausible ??? you're just guessing and being speculative. Or do you know them and been in contact?  

 

I have given what i think is the most likely scenario.What i have said is not hypocritical whatsoever.I accept that not all performance enhancers,and there are many,are illegal or have yet to have been deemed illegal. Comprehend?

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Honestjohn said:

Hence the question mark.  I don't know why.  What are you insinuating here? 

Hj

I gave an earlier explanation as to what i thought was the most likely scenario,given how they died. I understand you are looking at it from the point of view where no one can say for sure,not wishing to think anything too negative about the stable.

[Chief Stipe]

23 minutes ago, the galah said:

If you or anyone honestly do believe that is a result of over training,then how could you possibly have any respect for a stable that does that.

Are you really naive about the racing game?  Do you know the attrition rate of horses out of the Gai Waterhouse stable for example?

The harness horse is more durable but the top stables work their horses hard.  If they don't they are not competitive.  

[Davis]

On 9/9/2022 at 7:59 AM, the galah said:

Seasider,a first starter for the telfer barn became the 3rd telfer horse to die in the last 4 months at the racetrack.This follows on from the lightly raced Cya doit at auckland and another first starter in Alta Debonair at addington.

All just collapsed and died after racing. Why is that happening?

Looks dodgy to me Galah. Whatever, it is not a good look when the likes of SAFE are trying to shut down greyhound racing, trotting will be next after that. Mark my words.

[Chief Stipe]

26 minutes ago, the galah said:

What i have said is not hypocritical whatsoever.I accept that not all performance enhancers,and there are many,are illegal or have yet to have been deemed illegal. Comprehend?

But you have suggested that they are undetectable.  They're not.  Unless of course the testing lab is incompetent.

[Chief Stipe]

Just now, Davis said:

Looks dodgy to me Galah.

Why is it "dodgy"?

SAFE is coming after racing regardless.