Just a thought..

[Doomed]

I have just been wondering whether the race pattern and allocation of precious stake money in the CD, and NZ in general really, might be faulty.

Can the CD sustain 3 feature meetings in 8 days, especially with an industry meeting the day before as well? Awapuni last weekend two $30,000 races with 6 starters, a $40,000 race with 5 starters, another $40,000 race with 8 starters that was supposed to be open class, but became a rating 74 because nothing higher rated was interested. Ironically an open class stayer raced for $14,000 the day before.

Today at Otaki a $40,000 race with 6 starters, a $30,000 race with 6 as well. A $65,000 race with 8 going around and an $80,000 race with just 7.

A bit early to assess Wanganui as there will be more scratchings, but already a $30,000 race with only 7 acceptors.

Meanwhile in Canterbury horses have to travel over five hours just to get a start for any sort of money at all. And 3yos in the South have no opportunities at all, whereas in the NI they have a race at every meeting, even if only 6 of them turn up. 

I certainly don't have the skills and experience, let alone the pay-packet, of the experts at NZTR, but I do wonder whether either today's Otaki meeting or Saturday's meeting should have been just an industry meeting. The money saved could have been used to boost the stakes on Timaru Cup Day or perhaps to hold a meeting at Timaru next week in place of the AWT meeting at Riccarton, which will surely have to be abandoned if trainers aren't interested.

Just on that subject, I wonder if NZTR has contingency plans in place if trainers don't want to race on the AWT? Surely they have sounded out Timaru or Ashburton to see if they are keen, just in case trainers say they won't race on the AWT but would race on a grass track in the district.

[Joe Bloggs]

You know Doomed, in a brave new world the SI should say ''Fuck Petone'' and start their own breakaway racing association and compliance org.......

Petone will say OK, you are sanctioned, so what? there are enough jocks to say ''fuck Petone too'........the publicity would be enough to actually ''fuck Petone''..........but there has to be a will........a strong will...........surely there is strong parochialism down there? the Government whoever it would be would need to step up then and you just might end up with a level playing field, however it would take strong militant action to achieve that.

What's happened to SI racing is a travesty, sadly apathy has had a lot to do with that, once, in it's heyday it was as strong as the NI......

The kowtowing to Petone is gut wrenching and defeatist, if they went it alone would the Gov disqualify the TAB from betting on SI racing? Maybe, but that itself brings probable legal action, restriction of trade mainly, would Trackside drop coverage?  That could be overcome with closed circuit Youtube and associated outlets.......

Lets face it, Kerry Packer told ACB to fuck off and started World Series Cricket, it went gangbusters, Rupert Murdoch started Super League after telling the NRL to fuck off, it worked, well it brought the NRL to the table and now look how strong the NRL is.....anything is possible, don't tell me it's not, you are only limited by your budget and your imagination, I'll keep saying that over and over.......but curling up like a mongrel dog copping a kicking is not working is it? 

How many more youngsters from the SI will walk away, how long until there is no-one left to care? ..........bring it on, would love to see a breakaway racing league in the South, bring back the will, go on...I dare you?

[Doomed]

1 hour ago, Joe Bloggs said:

You know Doomed, in a brave new world the SI should say ''Fuck Petone'' and start their own breakaway racing association and compliance org.......

Petone will say OK, you are sanctioned, so what? there are enough jocks to say ''fuck Petone too'........the publicity would be enough to actually ''fuck Petone''..........but there has to be a will........a strong will...........surely there is strong parochialism down there? the Government whoever it would be would need to step up then and you just might end up with a level playing field, however it would take strong militant action to achieve that.

What's happened to SI racing is a travesty, sadly apathy has had a lot to do with that, once, in it's heyday it was as strong as the NI......

The kowtowing to Petone is gut wrenching and defeatist, if they went it alone would the Gov disqualify the TAB from betting on SI racing? Maybe, but that itself brings probable legal action, restriction of trade mainly, would Trackside drop coverage?  That could be overcome with closed circuit Youtube and associated outlets.......

Lets face it, Kerry Packer told ACB to fuck off and started World Series Cricket, it went gangbusters, Rupert Murdoch started Super League after telling the NRL to fuck off, it worked, well it brought the NRL to the table and now look how strong the NRL is.....anything is possible, don't tell me it's not, you are only limited by your budget and your imagination, I'll keep saying that over and over.......but curling up like a mongrel dog copping a kicking is not working is it? 

How many more youngsters from the SI will walk away, how long until there is no-one left to care? ..........bring it on, would love to see a breakaway racing league in the South, bring back the will, go on...I dare you?

Unfortunately, it is almost too late for any of that. NZTR's basic approach is divide and conquer, which to give them credit they are doing quite well. Eventually they will have picked off all the low hanging fruit and the likes of the CJC will say "well, that went well", only for NZTR to say "not so fast, you're next."

All of the major racing jurisdictions have a strong, dominant and inspirational major club which the smaller clubs support and benefit from: look at any state in Australia. The problem in the SI is that the CJC could never be called inspirational. Their mantra has always been to shaft the smaller clubs rather than encourage them.

[Reefton]

1 hour ago, Joe Bloggs said:

You know Doomed, in a brave new world the SI should say ''Fuck Petone'' and start their own breakaway racing association and compliance org.......

Petone will say OK, you are sanctioned, so what? there are enough jocks to say ''fuck Petone too'........the publicity would be enough to actually ''fuck Petone''..........but there has to be a will........a strong will...........surely there is strong parochialism down there? the Government whoever it would be would need to step up then and you just might end up with a level playing field, however it would take strong militant action to achieve that.

What's happened to SI racing is a travesty, sadly apathy has had a lot to do with that, once, in it's heyday it was as strong as the NI......

The kowtowing to Petone is gut wrenching and defeatist, if they went it alone would the Gov disqualify the TAB from betting on SI racing? Maybe, but that itself brings probable legal action, restriction of trade mainly, would Trackside drop coverage?  That could be overcome with closed circuit Youtube and associated outlets.......

Lets face it, Kerry Packer told ACB to fuck off and started World Series Cricket, it went gangbusters, Rupert Murdoch started Super League after telling the NRL to fuck off, it worked, well it brought the NRL to the table and now look how strong the NRL is.....anything is possible, don't tell me it's not, you are only limited by your budget and your imagination, I'll keep saying that over and over.......but curling up like a mongrel dog copping a kicking is not working is it? 

How many more youngsters from the SI will walk away, how long until there is no-one left to care? ..........bring it on, would love to see a breakaway racing league in the South, bring back the will, go on...I dare you?

Bit of an issue with the appeal (to the wider punting public) of South Island Racing.  Packer grabbed a red hot spectator sport and ran with it just like the LIV golf concept.  Is SI racing in any position to go it alone?  In an ideal world nobody would be more in favour of a breakaway but being realistic it isn't going to happen.

And as far as the CJC meeting next week on the AWT well there are a lot of horses in the District and if a trainer thinks there is an opportunity to pick up some easy money they will be there.  Clearly Michael Pitman for instance has virtually ignored Cromwell, will not go to Invercargill in a couple of weeks and did not trial anything at Ashburton this week so it is a fair bet there will be a ton of his team entered for a start. 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Reefton

[Huey]

They'll get enough runners for races, perhaps something like you describe In CD vicinity for numbers. It of course doesn’t really matter what they get as it's xmas at the races with the emphasize on xmas , so long as the booze is flowing & a few races can go on in the background  it'll be described as a success. 

Im of the view the problem is the trainers who support it take a short term view & in fact hasten their demise by doing so. No good will come of supporting these AWT surfaces , they are a ticking time bomb for the industry. 

[Freda]

2 hours ago, Huey said:

They'll get enough runners for races, perhaps something like you describe In CD vicinity for numbers. It of course doesn’t really matter what they get as it's xmas at the races with the emphasize on xmas , so long as the booze is flowing & a few races can go on in the background  it'll be described as a success. 

Im of the view the problem is the trainers who support it take a short term view & in fact hasten their demise by doing so. No good will come of supporting these AWT surfaces , they are a ticking time bomb for the industry. 

Trainers may also hasten their own demise by refusing to race there, and thereby condemning their horses/owners to weeks without racing at all, or else facing significant costs travelling all over the blasted Sth Island to find starts.

That is compounded by awful programmes, so finding suitable placement can be harder than ever.

The whole situation is a disgrace, and NZTR has, despite asserting that AWT racing is not for the summer months, done a U-turn.

[Freda]

11 minutes ago, Freda said:

Trainers may also hasten their own demise by refusing to race there, and thereby condemning their horses/owners to weeks without racing at all, or else facing significant costs travelling all over the blasted Sth Island to find starts.

That is compounded by awful programmes, so finding suitable placement can be harder than ever.

The whole situation is a disgrace, and NZTR has, despite asserting that AWT racing is not for the summer months, done a U-turn.

Sending horses over the ditch looks ever more appealing.

[nomates]

1 hour ago, Freda said:

The whole situation is a disgrace, and NZTR has, despite asserting that AWT racing is not for the summer months, done a U-turn.

No , never .

[curious]

1 hour ago, Freda said:

The whole situation is a disgrace, and NZTR has, despite asserting that AWT racing is not for the summer months, done a U-turn.

I don't agree with Huey that the AWTs are a time bomb per se. My big worry is they won't be managed and maintained properly and the likes of the CJC have shown they can't follow advice and do that for their grass course anymore so the likelihood of them doing so and following Martin Collins' advice for the poly seems pretty slim. Otherwise, the AWT's have their place and could build numbers of horses in work and racing with decent thoughtful programming. That possibly includes (despite the NZTR aversion) scheduling an extra spring synthetic meeting so the necessary refurbishment of the course proper can be effected after the likes of the National meeting to have the course in pristine condition for Riccarton's jewel in the crown of cup week (if they can bother to do it).

That does not include suddenly reverting a programmed and planned grass meeting to synthetic. There was a comment on the other channel that a presumably NI trainer had never found it so difficult to place horses. They should try in the SI. The programming is abysmal as has been pointed out by Doomed and others. As Freda suggested, the time and costs of traipsing all over the SI to place horses are no longer viable for horses or their connections.

It breaks my heart to see the CJC continue to self-destruct, though as a long time SI racing supporter said to me yesterday, it's been going on for years, decades in fact, and essentially comes down to an inept and inactive board, which itself reflects on the membership that has sustained that. I admit to have been personally affected by the cup week debacle so am maybe biased but to see an institution that has been a part of my family for generations in such a state of decay is extremely sad and seems to have come to a head this year with what was probably the last National meeting and now the Cup meeting under serious threat, solely because of incompetence and inaction.

Edited November 24, 2022 by curious

[Chief Stipe]

5 hours ago, Huey said:

Im of the view the problem is the trainers who support it take a short term view & in fact hasten their demise by doing so. No good will come of supporting these AWT surfaces , they are a ticking time bomb for the industry. 

Yep and I bet the South's leading trainers pitch up with a full teams.

[Joe Bloggs]

1 hour ago, curious said:

I don't agree with Huey that the AWTs are a time bomb per se. My big worry is they won't be managed and maintained properly and the likes of the CJC have shown they can't follow advice and do that for their grass course anymore so the likelihood of them doing so and following Martin Collins' advice for the poly seems pretty slim. Otherwise, the AWT's have their place and could build numbers of horses in work and racing with decent thoughtful programming. That possibly includes (despite the NZTR aversion) scheduling an extra spring synthetic meeting so the necessary refurbishment of the course proper can be effected after the likes of the National meeting to have the course in pristine condition for Riccarton's jewel in the crown of cup week (if they can bother to do it).

That does not include suddenly reverting a programmed and planned grass meeting to synthetic. There was a comment on the other channel that a presumably NI trainer had never found it so difficult to place horses. They should try in the SI. The programming is abysmal as has been pointed out by Doomed and others. As Freda suggested, the time and costs of traipsing all over the SI to place horses are no longer viable for horses or their connections.

It breaks my heart to see the CJC continue to self-destruct, though as a long time SI racing supporter said to me yesterday, it's been going on for years, decades in fact, and essentially comes down to an inept and inactive board, which itself reflects on the membership that has sustained that. I admit to have been personally affected by the cup week debacle so am maybe biased but to see an institution that has been a part of my family for generations in such a state of decay is extremely sad and seems to have come to a head this year with what was probably the last National meeting and now the Cup meeting under serious threat, solely because of incompetence and inaction.

And yet Mills is still there? That beggars the question .....why?..........don't like the Government? then just wait until the next election and exercise the democratic right, it's as plain as the nose on your face, he should not be there, if he had any cred he should resign, it must carry some real hutzpah being boss of CJC, ......#romefiddlenero 

[Doomed]

1 hour ago, curious said:

I don't agree with Huey that the AWTs are a time bomb per se. My big worry is they won't be managed and maintained properly and the likes of the CJC have shown they can't follow advice and do that for their grass course anymore so the likelihood of them doing so and following Martin Collins' advice for the poly seems pretty slim. Otherwise, the AWT's have their place and could build numbers of horses in work and racing with decent thoughtful programming. That possibly includes (despite the NZTR aversion) scheduling an extra spring synthetic meeting so the necessary refurbishment of the course proper can be effected after the likes of the National meeting to have the course in pristine condition for Riccarton's jewel in the crown of cup week (if they can bother to do it).

That does not include suddenly reverting a programmed and planned grass meeting to synthetic. There was a comment on the other channel that a presumably NI trainer had never found it so difficult to place horses. They should try in the SI. The programming is abysmal as has been pointed out by Doomed and others. As Freda suggested, the time and costs of traipsing all over the SI to place horses are no longer viable for horses or their connections.

It breaks my heart to see the CJC continue to self-destruct, though as a long time SI racing supporter said to me yesterday, it's been going on for years, decades in fact, and essentially comes down to an inept and inactive board, which itself reflects on the membership that has sustained that. I admit to have been personally affected by the cup week debacle so am maybe biased but to see an institution that has been a part of my family for generations in such a state of decay is extremely sad and seems to have come to a head this year with what was probably the last National meeting and now the Cup meeting under serious threat, solely because of incompetence and inaction.

I can't argue with any of that. Very well put. I don't know any of the people on the board so I have no idea whether they are incompetent or just out of their depth, or perhaps something else. Many years ago it used to be a prestigious thing to be on the CJC board and they didn't really have to do anything. These days they have a big job to do and perhaps they just aren't up to it. They aren't alone of course, many years ago Auckland and Wellington also used to have terrible boards.

[Doomed]

14 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

And yet Mills is still there? That beggars the question .....why?..........don't like the Government? then just wait until the next election and exercise the democratic right, it's as plain as the nose on your face, he should not be there, if he had any cred he should resign, it must carry some real hutzpah being boss of CJC, ......#romefiddlenero 

It would be a brave man who would want to take over from him these days. Perhaps they realise no one would want the job now, so better stick to the devil you know.

[Joe Bloggs]

21 minutes ago, Doomed said:

It would be a brave man who would want to take over from him these days. Perhaps they realise no one would want the job now, so better stick to the devil you know.

Ahh, but how many Prime Ministers got the job due to that mantra?........I say he needs to go and quickly, surely there is some brave soul with passion and vision?....oh that's right 'they' all moved over here.

[Freda]

42 minutes ago, Doomed said:

Many years ago it used to be a prestigious thing to be on the CJC board and they didn't really have to do anything.

And there it is in a nutshell.

[Huey]

4 hours ago, Freda said:

Trainers may also hasten their own demise by refusing to race there, and thereby condemning their horses/owners to weeks without racing at all, or else facing significant costs travelling all over the blasted Sth Island to find starts.

That is compounded by awful programmes, so finding suitable placement can be harder than ever.

The whole situation is a disgrace, and NZTR has, despite asserting that AWT racing is not for the summer months, done a U-turn.

The programming should never be an issue, it should be easily and efficiently remedied but it's the apathy, ignorance and just plain stubbornness of our leadership that will more than likely see that area as a continued issue.

However the AWT as a racing surface is always going to be an issue, you only have to look at the diminishing levels of enthusiasm for racing & trails on them. 

The real issue is they weren't what was needed in the first place, something was needed but it wasn't them.

[curious]

1 hour ago, Huey said:

The programming should never be an issue, it should be easily and efficiently remedied but it's the apathy, ignorance and just plain stubbornness of our leadership that will more than likely see that area as a continued issue.

However the AWT as a racing surface is always going to be an issue, you only have to look at the diminishing levels of enthusiasm for racing & trails on them. 

The real issue is they weren't what was needed in the first place, something was needed but it wasn't them.

I agree with that. Clearly if the industry was going to spend $30m on track infrastructure, it badly needed to go elsewhere. Nevertheless, they are there and I think they are an asset if the maintenance can be achieved. I'm not sure where you get the idea that there is diminishing interest in racing and trialing on them everything else such as stakes being equal. My sense is that the opposite may be true.

[Joe Bloggs]

It didn't work in Toowoomba, and the Geelong track was a complete joke long before they decided to sack the track, the Poly on the Sunny coast mainly has small fields and mostly locals, VIC has built-up a collective of horses that suit the track, so Ballarat will survive as will Packingthemin, cos the locals need somewhere to race their 'scrubbers'........sorry to use that adjective, but sad to say most are, it's ok as a training track unless you let their heads go, then you have your share of problems.

The Goldie is in the process of dropping in their synthetic, for training and wet weather transfers, the Goldie is becoming a big training centre with lots of new trainers, mostly 20 somethings desperate to start their careers and unable to get on E Farm and Doomben owing to the Boy's Club that QLD has alway been.......one day we might get a royal commission into RQ and the corruption, BRC have a lot to answer for also, but hey, no one likes a whistle blower and the sun shines and the surf runs most days so we make the most of it.

I must say though, we had need to contact our local MP over certain issues with RQ and their horse welfare fiasco, to the credit of everyone, once the opposition racing minister got involved a huge improvement evolved.

Lets see what type of conversation we are having over the AWT down in Chch this time next year eh? might be very interesting, if a weeks a long time in racing, then a years....?????

[curious]

1 hour ago, Freda said:

And there it is in a nutshell.

Exactly. Didn't have to and haven't. Have to now and with urgency.

[Doomed]

2 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said:

It didn't work in Toowoomba, and the Geelong track was a complete joke long before they decided to sack the track, the Poly on the Sunny coast mainly has small fields and mostly locals, VIC has built-up a collective of horses that suit the track, so Ballarat will survive as will Packingthemin, cos the locals need somewhere to race their 'scrubbers'........sorry to use that adjective, but sad to say most are, it's ok as a training track unless you let their heads go, then you have your share of problems.

The Goldie is in the process of dropping in their synthetic, for training and wet weather transfers, the Goldie is becoming a big training centre with lots of new trainers, mostly 20 somethings desperate to start their careers and unable to get on E Farm and Doomben owing to the Boy's Club that QLD has alway been.......one day we might get a royal commission into RQ and the corruption, BRC have a lot to answer for also, but hey, no one likes a whistle blower and the sun shines and the surf runs most days so we make the most of it.

I must say though, we had need to contact our local MP over certain issues with RQ and their horse welfare fiasco, to the credit of everyone, once the opposition racing minister got involved a huge improvement evolved.

Lets see what type of conversation we are having over the AWT down in Chch this time next year eh? might be very interesting, if a weeks a long time in racing, then a years....?????

I'm shocked to hear corruption and Queensland mentioned in the same sentence.

[Huey]

On 25/11/2022 at 11:42 AM, curious said:

 My sense is that the opposite may be true.

That of course has everything to do with a lack of options , manipulation of the programme and little if anything to do with an enhanced level of enthusiasm for racing on them.

[Freda]

Yes, that is largely correct.   We had a meeting several years ago, to discuss the possibility of an AWT at Riccarton to 'bring us forward into the 21st century ' .

There were several attendees from other Canterbury clubs, and it was made quite clear by the Chair [ Tim Mills ] that meetings would be need to be transferred to the AWT to 'justify the investment ' into that track.   I can't understand why those same clubs now don't understand, or are surprised, that their contribution has been, and will continue to be for the foreseeable future, reduced significantly.    We can see now the 'manipulation of programmes'  referred to by Huey to incentivise the use of said track.

The only exception seems to be Ashburton, intended to be the 'back up ' for Riccarton, when the expected influx of trainers arrives.  Those who can't afford to purchase and live in ChCh, can go to Ashburton, was the idea.  I found that concept offensive, but maybe I'm just picky. 

I have never been against the provision of an alternative surface,  for racing or training.  As said before, it will suit some, not others.  But it shouldn't be the ONLY option for either.

A senior trainer and former Board member, at that meeting, said to me - oh well, there isn't the bloody money for this fairy tale, if we just hold our hands up in support, he'll shut up and we can go home.

And then along came Winston and the PGF and the rest - as they say - is history.

[Kihikihi Kid]

And then along came Winston alright !

PGF fund for a major city venture, but we won't go there....

The more you think about Winston the more he screws everything up.

Bailing out the TAB 3 days before the budget because they were flat broke and couldn't pay for the horrendous betting garbage site.

Should have let them go broke and cleaned out the deadwood then the whole Industry could have had a major reset.

What better time , Covid , no Racing .

And then $9 million for the 3 flagship races in an earlier time.

He gets his arse kicked in the last election and says nothing , doesn't front up , and now a year out from the election , he miraculously appears again.

There was the protest appearance at Parliament to be fair but just another bad judgement call.

Mind you, that is probably an indictment on the strength of Labour and National.

But that's another story, watch out for the Wolf in - an Armani suit .

 

 

[mikeynz]

Winston i think has stated he wont go with labour, dont leave many if any options, maybe he should just be a expert commentator like Hosking, all talk but no action.

[holy ravioli]

On 11/27/2022 at 12:13 PM, mikeynz said:

Winston i think has stated he wont go with labour, dont leave many if any options, maybe he should just be a expert commentator like Hosking, all talk but no action.

Winston is smarter than that-he won't go with the 'present govt'.