Happy Sunrise Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 2 minutes ago, Flagship uberalles said: I guess while they are under investigation they are basically stood down from their place of work as anyone in a teaching/police/nurse job etc would be if they were under investigation. Not always. Depends on the situation and severity. In this case, whether it will be damaging to the industry I suppose. Any precedent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flagship uberalles Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 1 minute ago, Happy Sunrise said: Not always. Depends on the situation and severity. In this case, whether it will be damaging to the industry I suppose. Any precedent? Its pretty interesting, it would be nice to know all the ins and outs, I can't think of anything precedent on such a large scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangatira Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Newmarket said: Do you get the feeling that some of those charged, may get off due to police / media actions? nope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Sunrise Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 1 minute ago, Flagship uberalles said: Your not watching "confessions of a restricted punter" again are you happy? Brodie? Up? confessions? restricted punter? The psychiatrist he is seeing is pretty hot...lol I need to lie down but Brodie is already on her couch..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangatira Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 12 minutes ago, Flagship uberalles said: I guess while they are under investigation they are basically stood down from their place of work as anyone in a teaching/police/nurse job etc would be if they were under investigation. but not on full pay and not even handedly 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brando Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 22 hours ago, Nowornever said: He was in full damage control I heard Oh pah-lease. He stood up for Freedom of the Press! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brando Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 21 hours ago, LongOwner said: They will get their own court case when it is all over ! Sure sure they will..... NOT! You base this assertation on what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brando Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Newmarket said: Do you get the feeling that some of those charged, may get off due to police / media actions? Well if you have got that feeling, then you need to see a doctor cause you are obviously are "feeling unwell" ?? The Police and Media have done ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brando Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 1 hour ago, hesi said: What I can't quite get, and I'm sure one of you very intelligent trot guys will oblige. Under the rules of racing, they have been charged and excluded as below, even though all vehemently claim they are not guilty, thus denying them the rights of an innocent person. The assumption therefore, is that the RIU have taken the action they have, based on the fact they have been charged and arrested by the police ??? Media Release Operation Inca - Wednesday 5 September 2018 posted Sep 4, 2018, 7:13 PM by Karin Attwood [ updated Sep 4, 2018, 7:13 PM ] The Police and Racing Integrity Unit are investigating Race Fixing in Harness Racing. As a result of the investigation to date the Police have arrested a number of persons and charged them with race fixing. In view of the serious nature of the charges the Police have laid the Racing Integrity Unit (RIU) has taken action under the Rules of Harness Racing to exclude, all those charged by the Police from entering a race course to attend race meetings, workouts and trials. The RIU has also charged those concerned with Serious Racing Offences, Rule 1001 (1) (v) (i) of the Rules of Harness Racing. Ok I'm not going to claim to be intelligent cause I'm not that full of myself or arroagant but..... ? Of the 11 charged, only one has pleaded NOT GUILTY. And he ain't even a harness person: Brent Wall ? The other 10 whom are Harness people, all have entered "No Plea" While one has expressed an "Intention" to strenuosly deny the charges - so strenuosly that he still won't plead "Not Guilty". So well played by his QC Eaton. The RIU have done the right thing. These are SERIOUS charges and if you aren't prepared to plead "Not Guilty" then you shouldn't expect the RIU to let you continue to be a particpant and affect the Integrity of the sport. Just remember: To plead "Not Guilty" but then to be found guilty at trial, incurs a far harsher penalty/sentence! Entering No Plea - this is classic legal manouvering. Those charged and their legal teams need time to fully evaluate the charges and the eveidence against them before pleading and also gives time for plea deals to possibly be agreed with Police. Form your own opinons based on that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 Decided not to comment much more on this topic as I know most of the people charged to different degrees. It is disappointing if the men get found guilty to the charges and are lost to the industry as well,as the damage to the harness industry when we need to be growing the sport. The pressure on these people is absolutely huge and I do feel for them and their families at this very low point in all of their lives! Clearly their misdemeanours if they are proven will weigh on their lives forever, and they will have regrets. The media and police despite what many have stated, I believe has overstepped the market and have painted a picture of guilt for them, that now has a lot of people not involved in harness talking about it to me. The judge is totally correct in what he stated yesterday in regards the police and the media. We will all have our opinions on this but by continuing to public flog our charged harness drivers is not that flash. I will not castigate these people because I believe they need to have a fair hearing, rather than stoning them!!!!! 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hesi Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 Racing: Move to challenge race meeting bans 13 Sep, 2018 5:00am 3 minutes to read Harness racing returns to Addington tomorrow night despite a crisis in the industry. Photo / Supplied NZ Herald High profile harness horsepeople banned from going to the races look set to challenge that today. All of the industry participants charged under Operation Inca last week, which saw several horsepeople arrested in Canterbury, were issued with race meeting bans. Although their notice of exclusion from race meetings is overseen by the Racing Integrity Unit, that role was actually secondary because most were banned from attending racing meetings under their bail conditions. But those conditions were lifted by the courts when many of those charged had their first hearings on Tuesday, meaning they are free to apply to the Racing Integrity Unit to have their exclusion notices withdrawn and be able to attend the feature Addington meeting tomorrow night. Herald sources suggest at least some of the lawyers acting on their behalf may seek for the RIU to allow them to work at race meetings until their cases are heard. New Zealand racing has little precedent for these cases. With most of those charged denying the allegations in court and the consensus being at least some are going to defend them, the cases are certain to drag into next year and potentially much longer. Some could be asking if it is fair the horsepeople involved can have a major source of income taken away while still presumed innocent but there will also be those suggesting they must stay banned for the good of the industry. That decision appears to lie with the RIU and they would not comment yesterday on the exact process to have the exclusions lifted. Often serious RIU matters go before a Judicial Control Authority panel but that looks unlikely here. The ban doesn't just apply to race meetings but to trials and workouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 Remember what happened to Peter Moody. The RIU could find themselves in damages territory if any one of the charged is found innocent. Now what is interesting is that if the RIU had a clear trail that a driver had technically bet on a race then they could be outed straight away. Will be interesting as the RIU will be reluctant to publicise what evidence they have. But there is a case to be argued that they should be allowed to go back to work. The Circus opens for a very long season at racetracks near you. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globederby12 Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 That previous article where it states "NZ racing has little precedent for these cases " basically underpins the circus this could turn into. Stipe is right in regard to the RIU being open to damages if they dont get it right. Some serious learning curves will be layed down here and lawyers involved will take full advantage of the confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brando Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Remember what happened to Peter Moody. The RIU could find themselves in damages territory if any one of the charged is found innocent. Now what is interesting is that if the RIU had a clear trail that a driver had technically bet on a race then they could be outed straight away. Will be interesting as the RIU will be reluctant to publicise what evidence they have. But there is a case to be argued that they should be allowed to go back to work. The Circus opens for a very long season at racetracks near you. I disagree re damages because being a Licensed person is not a right but a privelge granted by HRNZ. 324 (1) The Board may, in its discretion, at any time cancel, withdraw, suspend, or impose, amend or delete any conditions or restrictions upon any licence for such period during the currency thereof as it thinks fit, giving seven days notice of its intention to do so. As this is the first case of it's kind in New Zealand, since Match Fixing was legislated to be a Criminal Act in 2014, the RIU needs to take a firm stance on this, and not let particpants and their smarty pants lawyers, use loop holes or find ways to make a mockery of an Industry where INTEGRITY is so paramount. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangatira Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, Brando said: 324 (1) The Board may, in its discretion, at any time cancel, withdraw, suspend, or impose, amend or delete any conditions or restrictions upon any licence for such period during the currency thereof as it thinks fit, giving seven days notice of its intention to do so. pretty sure this rule in not relevant in this case so far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the galah Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 6 minutes ago, Rangatira said: pretty sure this rule in not relevant in this case so far Why not,seems pretty straight forward. The simple solution is to have all those involved in race fixing stood down from attending race meetings,but allow them to continue to compete and attend at trials and workouts where there is no betting. That is until the conclusion of these cases. As far as the drug charges. They should be allowed to continue as above if they provide drug free samples,However charges must be filed by the RIU and dealt with expediently. Their comebacks may thus be short lived but at least that part of it can be dealt with and that cloud will not have to hover over anyone for too long. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangatira Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 4 minutes ago, the galah said: Why not,seems pretty straight forward. hrnz not involved in this so far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CrossCodes Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 (edited) If someone in any industry is under serious investigation then it is only right (and standard practice) that they are stood down until the investigation comes to a conclusion. If someone was accused of fiddling with my child at school I wouldn't want them still working with them while they were being investigated. Yes, there is innocent until proven guilty, but what look is it going to give to let these people back out there almost straight away if (or when) they are found guilty of the worst thing you can do in racing (IMO) in race fixing. Edited September 13, 2018 by CrossCodes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangatira Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 What possible harm can come from allowing them on course for the time being. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongOwner Posted September 13, 2018 Author Share Posted September 13, 2018 37 minutes ago, CrossCodes said: If someone in any industry is under serious investigation then it is only right (and standard practice) that they are stood down until the investigation comes to a conclusion. If someone was accused of fiddling with my child at school I wouldn't want them still working with them while they were being investigated. Yes, there is innocent until proven guilty, but what look is it going to give to let these people back out there almost straight away if (or when) they are found guilty of the worst thing you can do in racing (IMO) in race fixing. Teacher gets paid while stood down - these people have had their income taken off them . Not justice as we expect it to be handled . Will you accept the RIU pay them while they lock them out ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsenic Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Easy answer is they shouldn’t have got involved in this fraudulent act, sorry they have to pay the price. Dosnt matter who they are or how much power they think they have they are gone. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangatira Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 6 minutes ago, Arsenic said: Easy answer is they shouldn’t have got involved in this fraudulent act, sorry they have to pay the price. Dosnt matter who they are or how much power they think they have they are gone. have you just revealed how to streamline the justice system 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongOwner Posted September 13, 2018 Author Share Posted September 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Arsenic said: Easy answer is they shouldn’t have got involved in this fraudulent act, sorry they have to pay the price. Dosnt matter who they are or how much power they think they have they are gone. I cannot believe what I read on this site - no idea about innocence until proven and justice. You comment is an insult to every New Zealander who understands our judicial system and the democracy we live in . So a fiddler school teacher, policeman , priest is stood down on full pay - “ gardening leave “ - but you say these people rot . Your comment is arsenic ! 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangatira Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 31 minutes ago, LongOwner said: I cannot believe what I read on this site - no idea about innocence until proven and justice. not forgetting little grasp of suppression orders and the misinformation by continuing to use information from last week 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the galah Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 1 hour ago, LongOwner said: I cannot believe what I read on this site - no idea about innocence until proven and justice. You comment is an insult to every New Zealander who understands our judicial system and the democracy we live in . So a fiddler school teacher, policeman , priest is stood down on full pay - “ gardening leave “ - but you say these people rot . Your comment is arsenic ! All those examples you have given are stood down to protect the integrity and reputation of their businesses and organisation. So I"m guessing, using your argument, you accept they should be stood down. I guess you are referring to drivers. So who is it you expect to fully fund the wages of some of the top 10 earners in harness racing while they await the outcome of their race fixing and drug charges?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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