mardigras

No one I've seen has suggested not having tiers. But having tiers within a single grade/quality of horse is stupid here since they all race each other. One day a horse of x grade races for $30k, next time $10k - yet you claim it is a professional sport - but clearly in NZ there is no concept of one R65 horse being different to another. The tier can easily relate to the class/rating of the horse. More money as you rise up the ranks of quality - same as in boxing, darts, tennis, golf etc.

Most horses race in the areas where they are trained and/or owned. There is nothing I have seen that suggests a Northern horse is superior to an Invercargill one (of like rating). It's just as likely a perception thing. Some horses go from the north down south and win. Many don't. Those that do may have equally won if they stayed up north. The rating system is the same - and given horses that race down south having achieved their rating often against south island horses, it's more logical to assume that the competition is somewhat level otherwise they couldn't compete when they then went north to race. Yet they do. Under what you suggest, an r90 horse from the south is inferior to an r90 horse in the north. I can't see it being the case.

I haven't used any of the products available, but BetAngel is one I've read about that is used quite a bit for trading. There are heaps of them and I expect many offer similar functionality. For those that can write software, you can develop your own version of these types of tools by requesting API keys (which you apply for), and then you can set up various capabilities that may suit your own needs and they can be integrated with other things to control your betting, whether that be a database or simple spreadsheets of things. Remembering that these products tend to be betfair focused (or BetDaq), so don't provide much integration from other 'operators' as far as I am aware of anyway. Whereas, your own product can integrate with things like TAB/bookie odds to give a fuller picture of markets and what is happening price wise elsewhere. And if understanding markets price shifts on horses you may have been interested in, you can also store the data you obtain. The tools are probably a better interface than the website or betfair app - which is quite limited in my opinion.

And surely not on NZ racing. Put 10k on something around d 8s. Multi on a place bet best of fixed tote. Put 10k on something else to place just as about to jump. Shift place price up decently. No pools here.

So no one takes fixed odds then since there is zero point. And you can take best of fixed odds and tote the day before as well?

Can you show me where can you take best of fixed and tote? You can take fixed, or best of tote. Is some mad bookie offering best of fixed and tote? Sort of makes fixed redundant. And they also do this on place markets?

As Boxie states, it wouldn't work. Apart form the impact of your bet into the tote, at which point would you have to decide what the options were. If you're suggesting they offer the 'best of' in the hybrid, then that would be impossible for them to manage. And open to manipulation of the tote.

This could be a very interesting thread over the next couple of months VC. Cheers.

Some people are paranoid. Most people that bet have had inside information at one time or another, or many times. Decent jurisdictions don't stop those other than jockeys from using that information themselves. Why would a jockey tell their agent the riding instructions. If it's for some form of gain, decent jurisdictions ban that from happening. That's where it should be stopped. Selling of inside information for some form of gain should be against the rules of racing (as it is elsewhere). Using it yourself to bet, no problem. Otherwise you will have a lot of participants to ban.

Good stuff Docker. I like that your odds varied quite a bit from the 'TAB' odds. Always give you opportunity.

What makes him think they will act 'independent'.

In the words of Tom Jones, It's not unusual.

And in the cup, Igraine and Mongolian Marshal are too short for me at $2.20 and $3.20. I have at $3.25 and $5.50. Value for me would be Maygrove who I have at 8s - $23 on NZ TAB.

At this stage, value for me is Caprikosa. I have at $11.

I would expect a jockey to do that for the same reason as a jockey agent would. To improve the price for those they are wanting to assist (whether it be themselves or part of their team). And wouldn't a trainer do exactly the same thing. Understate one of their horses or suggest one of the stablemates was a better chance. That happens all the time. They're just presenters and relying on their tips should be caveat emptor. if they are selling them, then I would expect that it would be reasonable to not allow that.

Isn't a jockey understating the chance of a ride effectively the same as tipping against? Especially if they understate due to inside info they have suggesting it was likely to go better than otherwise expected.

Punter beware from someone on TV tipping horses. Do you not feel the same way when they interview a trainer or a jockey? Do you think they are always upfront about what they actually see as the chance of their horses? The same "perception" would have to apply to them. Other people in media also get access to inside information, journalists, race commentators (Not only jockey agents). Does the same "perception" not apply to them also. We would end up with a racing channel that had no presenters, no jockeys talking and no trainers talking. Maybe no comments outside of the commentary from the commentator. Because the "perception" of them all is that the possibility exists that everything they say has an ulterior motive. The good part of that would be we'd just get pictures (with or without commentary) - would suit many perfectly

You could be right there barry. NZ greyhound demise may accelerate the demise of NZ gallops, some of it for the same reasons and some of it due to greyhounds helping support NZ gallops. What will be the stance of NZRB? Will they continue to offer betting on greyhounds or would that be considered unethical if NZ had taken a stance to ban greyhounds? Greyhound punters may simply shift to a different provider.

Perception of what? I think this is a separate point. That is leveraging their positions with NZRB and is something NZRB should stop if there is an issue. The rules could easily be as simple as not being permitted to 'sell' information not in the public domain. No paid tipping services or deals for information. Nothing wrong with using it themselves for betting, since with betting there is no way to determine if there is any material value in the information, whereas with 'selling' it, the material value is in what is received for it. The GAIN. And on that point, I agree with part of the NSW approach, although the rule to cover everyone could have been as per what I wrote above.

For NZ - yep, as far as I am aware. I don't know if we have that rule here, but it has been a rule in Oz before this change.

They are already prohibited from laying their runners - as are jockey agents for horses ridden by the jockeys they represent. The only part that makes sense is that they can't sell inside information - which should be a rule for anyone.

I'm with you Nice Option. It doesn't even resemble insider trading. It resembles having information, the value of which is questionable. Even NSW recognise the information as not necessarily having any value. It's a storm in a tea cup. (b) provides either directly or indirectly to any person for any direct or indirect financial or other benefit (regardless of whether such benefit materialises) any tip, or any other information or advice that may influence any person to bet And I'm with NSW on them being restricted from selling their 'tips'. They should not be able to make money under the idea that they have inside information. I can't see any problem with them using it for themselves should they choose to. They no doubt offer tipping services because they realise the value doesn't actually exist - if it did, it would be worth far more to them to keep it than sell it.

He wants that crap because he can't win. He thinks he is missing the vital piece but for him, he's missing the complete plot. He's wanted to know things like horses being taken to the beach and all sorts of stuff. Clearly the BP doesn't deliver the goods, so needs a few more generalisations to give him an edge. Which they won't do.

Spot on diceman.

I don't on an individual basis. I review my assessments against the outcomes to test my assessments win at the rate I've collectively assessed them at. I.e Horses I assess as 10% chances, should have won 10% of the time, 2% should have won only 2%. For all levels of assessment. I'll only investigate further if a sample size of around 200,000 horses indicates I'm potentially out. But if you are starting out using chance, then record keeping will help. And you'll certainly get indications of accuracy well before that many starts if things are not close. 10 weeks of NZ racing should give you at least a guide. That's around 4000 - 5000 horse starts.