Chief Stipe Posted January 5 Author Share Posted January 5 8 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: How do you produce revenue without...turnover? Explain how a bonus bet increases turnover but not revenue. Does a bread maker sell all his different types of bread at less than cost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said: Explain how a bonus bet increases turnover but not revenue. Does a bread maker sell all his different types of bread at less than cost? How does a bonus bet increase turnover? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 14 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: How do you produce revenue without...turnover? Same turnover, higher margins, more revenue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 5 Author Share Posted January 5 2 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: How does a bonus bet increase turnover? The same why QE increases money supply. No seriously if you print bonus bets and they are used they are accounted for in turnover. The cost is reduced yield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 6 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: The same why QE increases money supply. No seriously if you print bonus bets and they are used they are accounted for in turnover. The cost is reduced yield. Yep. A bonus bet is customer money that contributes to turnover though the money is effectively a rebate on a previous bet, so while increasing turnover, directly, it reduces revenue. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 53 minutes ago, curious said: Same turnover, higher margins, more revenue. No turn over=no revenue. As to bonus bet....Punter Billy has $300 set aside to bet with on a Saturday...is the bonus bet going to make him increase his spend? Clearly revenue can be increased by increasing turnover ,even with the same..margins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 16 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: No turn over=no revenue. As to bonus bet....Punter Billy has $300 set aside to bet with on a Saturday...is the bonus bet going to make him increase his spend? Probably not but it will increase turnover by the amount of the bonus bet and not increase revenue. 17 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: Clearly revenue can be increased by increasing turnover ,even with the same..margins. Of course. But it's revenue that remains the key measure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 5 Author Share Posted January 5 18 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: No turn over=no revenue. Top marks. But you said Turnover is the key metric. It isn't - you can have as much turnover as you want and still not revenue or profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 5 Author Share Posted January 5 19 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: As to bonus bet....Punter Billy has $300 set aside to bet with on a Saturday...is the bonus bet going to make him increase his spend? May do or does he just use the bonus bet? I.e. the TAB's voucher? 21 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: Clearly revenue can be increased by increasing turnover ,even with the same..margins. Clearly but it isn't the key metric is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 (edited) Last time I did an OIA on FOB margins, they had ranged from 2+% of turnover annually to 12% over a 4 year period. If you double turnover and halve margins you are no better off. Probably worse because of the costs of doing the extra turnover. Loaf of bread with a $2 margin is no better than two loaves with a $1 margin Edited January 5 by curious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 5 Author Share Posted January 5 @holy ravioli put it another way. If turnover is so important why do they put a limit on how much some punters can wager? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 5 Author Share Posted January 5 1 minute ago, curious said: Last time I did an OIA on FOB margins, they had ranged from 2+% of turnover annually to 12% over a 4 year period. Really? As low as 2%? So the extra margin comes from Tote and exotic betting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Really? As low as 2%? So the extra margin comes from Tote and exotic betting? Yep. That was a few years back but is obviously a key metric. There's a risk they could have a negative FOB margin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 5 Author Share Posted January 5 6 minutes ago, curious said: Yep. That was a few years back but is obviously a key metric. There's a risk they could have a negative FOB margin. Even when they tend to overprice their product? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 4 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Even when they tend to overprice their product? That's the tradeoff in any business isn't it? Lower prices and tighter margins increase sales whereas higher margins and prices reduce sales. You have to find the sweetspot that maximises revenue. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 34 minutes ago, curious said: Last time I did an OIA on FOB margins, they had ranged from 2+% of turnover annually to 12% over a 4 year period. If you double turnover and halve margins you are no better off. Probably worse because of the costs of doing the extra turnover. Loaf of bread with a $2 margin is no better than two loaves with a $1 margin 'Loaf of bread with a $2 margin is no better than two loaves with a $1 margin' Beg to differ....your analogy is flawed...even on the basis of handling,storage,freight,perishable prouct=more risk. Any business person will choose $2 margin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 37 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: @holy ravioli put it another way. If turnover is so important why do they put a limit on how much some punters can wager? The clue is some.The business is afterall gambling. The aim is to cultivate losers and deter ...winners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 5 Author Share Posted January 5 25 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: 'Loaf of bread with a $2 margin is no better than two loaves with a $1 margin' Beg to differ....your analogy is flawed...even on the basis of handling,storage,freight,perishable prouct=more risk. Any business person will choose $2 margin. Eh?! Aren't you now arguing against yourself? The two loaves with a $1 margin is a higher turnover than one loaf at $2! Your turnover is double at the $1 margin!! The revenue stays the same! Although in reality the cost of sales on the $1 margin loaves will be higher if the two loaves are sold to different customers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 5 Author Share Posted January 5 22 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: The aim is to cultivate losers and deter ...winners. That is increase your revenue, yield, profit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 12 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: That is increase your revenue, yield, profit! You can increase profit by reducing overheads....you know costs,like too many overpaid staff. 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmarket Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 On 5/01/2024 at 12:42 AM, TAB For Ever said: Yes oncourse turnover is less relevant these days.....all turnover is important but the hundreds & thousands who attend once a year with their chilly bins of food and booze contribute very little. And all the previous posters are stuck in the good old days when there was nothing else to do ....there wasn't even malls to shop at plus retail was closed at the weekends. Many are stuck in the good old days , when there was terrible dissatisfaction about the way racing was run ,how dates were allocated and how funding was distributed. NZ often had too many horses and not enough stakes to support them....and everyone agreed there were too many courses , and those in the know knew courses had to be closed but it had to be OP's...other peoples . From at least 1970 this blinding obvious. Come in Messara ! Read histories by John Costello, Finnigan, Glengarry , Dave McCarthy etc. The good old days were really not so good ,and the poor infrastructure and facilities and lack of Investment and future planning hurts today....take a non-racing person to the races today and see what they think. My young mates hate it....going out for several hours to watch a few horses run around a circular track once every 30 to 40 minutes is boring as hell.The other day I got involved with a survey by the TAB, basically answer 4 questions re raceday experience and get $10 free into TAB account.I was surprised 3 of 8 at table had no TAB account , I prompted them to talk about the facilities...paint chipping off seats ,bird poo on others ,terrible state of toilets etc ......it doesnt really cut the mustard. Average food , shitty coffee etc .The big screen faltered for a while ,most there were lucky if they saw a horse flash past. The TAB obviously pushing for folk to bet on phones to remove staff etc especially with all bonus bets to open Account etc. I've been around NZ racing a while , I doubt many on here would match longevity ,and being a South Islander I've seen how the Clubs and racing people who say they care have sat by a watched it slowly but surely go down the gurgler. I note most of the biggest moaners on here are from the South Island OR have close association/affiliation to it. Remember the South used to have the Derby and Oaks .....very lucky to hang on to the 1000and 2000 guines.Virtually lost all jumping . Wingatui training centre a shadow of former self , Forbury Park closed. Nelson gallops gone since 1980's but people still pine over this. Marlborough mentioned ,the Coast talked about fondly and the Nuggets at Kumara still iconic.Some clubs seem to be run out of another town so hardly pushing local involvement. Mike from Blenheim used to keep a lot of Southern Trotting afloat until they nailed him ! Praise the lord for NZ Cup week ! NZTR HRNZ ,TAB done a great job at keeping these Holiday picnic meetings going...I never missed , Waikouaiti , Omakau [ they had 2-days Gallops ,Roxborugh Cromwell , Nelson , Blenheim Oamaru/Timaru......loved em . But most for a picnic ......like many I favour boating ,fishing and watching on phone or TV and doing other things. And many from the good old days can't afford the petrol now to attend. Inflation and cost of living have finished them...they consider themselves punters...$1 each way and a 50 cent double. Even went yo Tapanui where viewing was on a mound of dirt ,and Beaumont where horses went into a dip where the stipes couldnt see [no stipes then !] The top 2 % of punters do 60 % of turnover in NZ. Field sizes were often tiny back in the day...how many remember when Waikouaiti and Wyndam both had gallops on New Years Day and even Fielding and Wairarapa and possibly Hawkes Bay ! And remember that classic race at Trentham NZ St Leger when it had 4 starters..Guest Star ,Fury's Order , Sobeit and Jackaroo. Well possums ,I hope you enjoyed my one post for the day ....Oh , The Newmarket connection to Scotland [ which has a few course only ] was a JOKE ! Haha...it originally was used for Paris when I in USA......is that Paris in Texas OR Paris , Italy ! FFS You’re a funny man, well I assume a man. Paint chipped off seats and bird poo…. poor state of toilets??? Listen to yourself, recently at Motukarara they had many new portaloos avail, even emptied half way thru day. Yes, facility’s are outdated but that never bothered the 1000s that turned up. I can assume that you are a white collar type…. No doubt attending tennis events in posh areas with your similar young mates. Funny you mentioned getting a $10 free bet for answering questions on day???I thought you work for the TAB??? I smell a RAT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomed Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) Just out of interest with that TAB chap claiming on course attendance doesn't matter at all and NZTR claiming there is no place for country racing, I compared the total win and place pool in race 2, the $18,500 maiden, at Kumara, with the next race at HB, the $40,000 rating 75. $47,000 at Kumara, $37,000 at HB. That doesn't really seem to align with any of the prevailing theories. Surely the bigger stake, higher grade of horse and better jockeys should mean HB would be a much more appealing race? There was even the heavy track at Kumara compared with soft at HB. I hope a lot of the decisions being made are based on some actual facts rather than purely theory. And the next at Kumara, $64,000 despite their smallest field of the day. Edited January 6 by Doomed 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 6 Author Share Posted January 6 Huge crowd at Kumara!! The fields are better for wagering than Hastings. Even before scratchings Kumara had larger fields. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shad Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 The same as most years,all those bus loads trek in for the yearly sojourn, 20$ to get in fairly steep these says, may put a few off, last time I was there got in the gate to see first race, then they had the helicopter out trying to dry the track, I think that was the first ever abandoned meetings, been a few since, looks like a good day in the sun today, roll on reefton tuesday 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 6 Author Share Posted January 6 Twice that many if you look in the other direction! 6,000+ on course!!! Beat that Ellerslie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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