Palmerston North Meeting- Money loser for industry!

[Brodie]

Seriously, the meeting at Palmerston North on Monday is another harness meeting that is guaranteed to lose money!

6 races programmed and dominated by the Michael House stable!

Good of Michael I suppose that he has brought his team up or the meeting wouldnt take place!

The TAB fixed odds place bets on the Michael House horses are just pathetic, and shows just how the industry in the North Island is!

They are offering place divs fixed odds of $1.01 on 2 horses in one race and $1.02 etc in most of the races!

Seriously you can not continue to run any business like this and expect to make a profit!

Entain chucking money into it is not a solution!.

 

[Rangatira]

20 hours ago, Brodie said:

They are offering place divs fixed odds of $1.01 on 2 horses in one race and $1.02 etc in most of the races!

those odds make no mathematical sense when lined up against the corresponding win dividends

hopefully nobody gets involved

[Brodie]

5 hours ago, Rangatira said:

those odds make no mathematical sense when lined up against the corresponding win dividends

hopefully nobody gets involved

Will be interesting to see what turnover was on the meeting?

Just a Michael House Benefit Day, but without him the meeting would not have happened you would think?

Just continues to show how poor the horses are in the North Island generally.

[mikeynz]

Palmerston North still run a meeting with only ten or so northern visitors,  if they dont run mini meetings then its probably goodnight nurse for cd harness Winton today, while a bit better not much though, not sure if the weather having some influence, maybe too much racing or simply not as many training horses these days.

[Brodie]

50 minutes ago, mikeynz said:

Palmerston North still run a meeting with only ten or so northern visitors,  if they dont run mini meetings then its probably goodnight nurse for cd harness Winton today, while a bit better not much though, not sure if the weather having some influence, maybe too much racing or simply not as many training horses these days.

Winton still has enough horses to run a meeting but certainly the numbers have dropped quite significantly to what they were. 
Think there is a reduction in the number of participants involved in harness racing, horses, owners and trainers.

As for Palmerston North, once Michael House stops sending horses up there, meetings are going to be reduced!

[JJ Flash]

4 hours ago, mikeynz said:

not sure if the weather having some influence, maybe too much racing or simply not as many training horses these days.

Another quality post by the Einstein of NZ Harness, Southern branch

[Chief Stipe]

42 minutes ago, JJ Flash said:

Another quality post by the Einstein of NZ Harness, Southern branch

Another post saying nothing from the naysayer of NZ Harness, Rangiora Branch.

[mikeynz]

Even Einstien wouldn't tip out Nazareth, makes those that did look rather stupid.

[Tonkatime!]

4 hours ago, Brodie said:

Winton still has enough horses to run a meeting but certainly the numbers have dropped quite significantly to what they were. 
Think there is a reduction in the number of participants involved in harness racing, horses, owners and trainers.

As for Palmerston North, once Michael House stops sending horses up there, meetings are going to be reduced!

Peter Lamb being starter will help with horse numbers. 

[Westview]

On 11/11/2024 at 7:01 PM, Brodie said:

Will be interesting to see what turnover was on the meeting?

Just a Michael House Benefit Day, but without him the meeting would not have happened you would think?

Just continues to show how poor the horses are in the North Island generally.

We absolutely need Michael House to continue racing at Manawatu as you say without him meetings could be abandoned.  I see the Telfers are headed down for this meeting where are the rest of the North Island trainers or is there to much racing at Cambridge or as Brodie has stated are there enough horses up there

 

[the galah]

6 hours ago, Brodie said:

Winton still has enough horses to run a meeting but certainly the numbers have dropped quite significantly to what they were. 
Think there is a reduction in the number of participants involved in harness racing, horses, owners and trainers.

 

southland harness racing now provides a betting product along the lines of auckland racing.

And we all know punter paticipation in auckland harness is declining.

The smaller fields are the reason for that.

and the reasons for the smaller fields seem multiple,and its very likely things will only get worse.

Reasons like the unfair handicapping system.

For example the horse TED,a 2 win horse from 3 starts,would be amongst the top 10 or so rated horses in southland.Imagine owning that horse,after 2 starts, having to line up against the highest rated horses in southland just to get a start.They should sell that horse before they break its will by running in races like that 2400m 2.54race that it ran in last start. At least they didn't line it up in that nz record race last week which was its only option to start in that day.

Then look at the non win horses who are rated r40. Mostly they don't have enough non win horses in that grade and the lower rating non win horses have to run against the higherr 50 non win horses each week.Same with the 1 win r 35 horses. The type of horses who once had a chance to earn money in the lowest of the r35 races,now have to run against better horses than they did a year ago due to the handicapping system.You just don't see them anymore.

then look at the age of the current participants in southland. It appears 3/4 are over 50,possibly more.Probably half over 60.Also take note that whereas once families had sons and daughters carry on from where their parents left off,now next to none seem to be participating.

look at the smaller  number of horses qualifying.

look at the lack of females involved in the sport down there when compared with some other areas. The increase in participation by women has masked to a degree the decline in male participation elsewhere.

look at the cost of getting there for canterbury horses. Whereas once canterbury horses owners received a travel subsidy to attend,now they don't.

and of course southland don't appear to be considered of much importance when compared to Auckland. The big hole that exists in auckland is being filled by hrnz funded stake increases,but southland gets next to nothing.

Hrnz would rather increase stakes to auckland and try and get owners to pay the cost of travel to there,than provide the same incentive to go to southland.

Then of course theres the other reasons that apply elsewhere in nz,but especially southland like land values being pushed so high by things like dairy conversions in the last 20 years which has made it next to impossible for young people to see a future,but even moreso has led to the rapid decline in small time trainers that were once the backbone of southland harness racing.

Many decisions being made by HRNZ leadership seem to be hurting southland harness racing.

HRNZ  need to address the many issues southland have,but is HRNZ capable of that.Thats very debateable.

My thoughts are they need to look at shortening the racing season in southland.Not only do the numbers point to this being inevitable,but its also so cold in southland at certain times of the year which effects participation.Thats what used to happen when they had far greater numbers participating in southland. 

Had HRNZ done something like i suggested and invested the forbury money in setting up some type of trainingfacilty in canterbury then southland trainers could have come up with small teams and supported canterbury harness racing or aucklnad harness racing in their off season .Satelite stables sort of thing for 3 or 4 months of the year. However the way things are with training facilities disappearing and racecourses mostly full then ,they may not find it easy to find a place to stay.

[Brodie]

What we are not seeing is any spokes person for Entain or HRNz actually coming out and explaining what is going on??

It is all very well Entain chucking the promised money into stakes, but it is only slightly masking the fact that harness in many regions in NZ are struggling!

We had all this media sideshow saying how great it was that Entain was boosting stakes for 5 years and then WHAT?
Does anyone actually believe that Entain are going to continue to put large $ into racing when the 5 years is up?

As The Galah has stated, the majority of the owners and trainers are past middle aged and this is the problem that money will not fix.

Why are we not hearing from the CEO of Entain, I appreciate he lives in Australia but surely we do deserve to hear from him as to how he thinks things are going?

Entain have total control over the NZ TAB and the way it is run and call all of the shots!

Does anyone actually have confidence in how things are going currently and in 3 years time?

 

[mikeynz]

1 hour ago, Brodie said:

What we are not seeing is any spokes person for Entain or HRNz actually coming out and explaining what is going on??

It is all very well Entain chucking the promised money into stakes, but it is only slightly masking the fact that harness in many regions in NZ are struggling!

We had all this media sideshow saying how great it was that Entain was boosting stakes for 5 years and then WHAT?
Does anyone actually believe that Entain are going to continue to put large $ into racing when the 5 years is up?

As The Galah has stated, the majority of the owners and trainers are past middle aged and this is the problem that money will not fix.

Why are we not hearing from the CEO of Entain, I appreciate he lives in Australia but surely we do deserve to hear from him as to how he thinks things are going?

Entain have total control over the NZ TAB and the way it is run and call all of the shots!

Does anyone actually have confidence in how things are going currently and in 3 years time?

 

All the Southern meetings seem  to be rinse and repeat, same old same old week after week, Wyndham last week I watched a race or two, looked like there was s hardly a soul on track, seemed Mark Cookson on TV even seemed a big bored  by it all, bit different from Cup day, you actually wonder if moving all the days to midweek will further negatively effect interest, only time will tell, maybe the Financials may tell a different story.

Back to Manawatu, it looks obvious the Cambridge meeting on Friday has affected the numbers of Northeners showing up, and in some ways why would they yet numbers from the CD ain't as bad as it has been, question is are there enough numbers to sustain more dates, in reality probably not.

 

[JJ Flash]

12 hours ago, mikeynz said:

Even Einstien wouldn't tip out Nazareth,

I didnt , one of the Dunns did to the part owner.  You obviously struggle with comprehension as well 

[Newmarket]

Yeah, get rid of Manawatu….those field are a disgrace. Mickey House is a funny man…. a couple years back he was gonna get out of harness and train gallopers coz harness wasn’t paying bill….. still flogging below par horses, I never bet there

[Tonkatime!]

8 minutes ago, Newmarket said:

Yeah, get rid of Manawatu….those field are a disgrace. Mickey House is a funny man…. a couple years back he was gonna get out of harness and train gallopers coz harness wasn’t paying bill….. still flogging below par horses, I never bet there

Brodie decreased his punting once Peter Lamb retired. Maybe he needs to come out of retirement. 

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Newmarket said:

Yeah, get rid of Manawatu….those field are a disgrace. Mickey House is a funny man…. a couple years back he was gonna get out of harness and train gallopers coz harness wasn’t paying bill….. still flogging below par horses, I never bet there

There needs to be a strategic plan which sets out the pathway for the continuation of harness racing in all areas of nz which currently have harness racing.Manawatu included.

if HRNZ have such a realistic future workable plan,then why aren't they promoting it.

so one assumes they don't and that indicates a failure of leadership.

things can't stay being managed  as they currently are. The kicking the can down the road approach until industry leadership have moved on to new jobs or roles in 3-5 years time is not a strategy.

every month is a month closer to the time of reckoning that is approaching on the horizon as time moves closer to that point.

the way i see it,harness racing is extremely susceptible to the domino effect.

for example,manawatu participants have an impact on cambridges viability,if cambridge is impacted that impacts auckland or vice versa.

In a lot of ways,the variable of which domino is the first to trigger the flow on effect, underlies the importance of each domino.

to me it just comes down to industry leadership,or lack thereof depending on your view of things.

[Taku Umanga]

On 17/11/2024 at 5:35 PM, Westview said:

We absolutely need Michael House to continue racing at Manawatu as you say without him meetings could be abandoned.  I see the Telfers are headed down for this meeting where are the rest of the North Island trainers or is there to much racing at Cambridge or as Brodie has stated are there enough horses up there

 

All Telfer horses scratched at Manawatu

[Westview]

3 hours ago, Taku Umanga said:

All Telfer horses scratched at Manawatu

Yeah not good for the club

[Brodie]

Second night and 7 races.

Only 46 starters and only one race with 3 tote place divs being paid!

This is just not a financially viable race meeting a d how is it going to be turned around?
How long is Entain going to be prepared to allow this to continue??

[the galah]

2 hours ago, Brodie said:

Second night and 7 races.

Only 46 starters and only one race with 3 tote place divs being paid!

This is just not a financially viable race meeting a d how is it going to be turned around?
How long is Entain going to be prepared to allow this to continue??

it really has to be assessed on turnovers you would think.

and in comparison with other clubs their turnovers aren't too bad.

i didn't really look much at the entain pools yesterday although i did notice they had a jackpot first 4 of $1300 from the first race which resulted in an $11,000 first 4 pool in the following race. I've previously referred to those as a magnet for generating turnover and have suggested how that could be maximised,although i doubt they ever will be.

also the tabcorp pools are ok as well when compared with other nz race meetings. For example they had a $9370 win pool in one of the races last night and another win pool greater then entain/nz tab had.Obviously those had the time slot/sky coverage thing working for them i often refer to.

so the point i make brodie is,you refer to financially viable race meetings. Well palmerstomn north dioesn't underperform in comparison to other meetings as you suggest.

Meanwhile i was reading  The breeders email they send out.

it had an interview with andrew grant who owns a handful of mares ,but doesn't think he will breed any this year. he laments the empty paddocks he currently sees at nevele r stud where he does some work.

he said"i understand that things change and some things will never be the sameagain,but with all this top end funding recently announced,where is the support for the middle and lower end market,he lamented".

well,90% of the industry are asking the same question as mr grant.

Edited Wednesday at 05:45 AM by the galah

[the galah]

i see on the other channel they have someone giving a breakdown of stakes paid/turnover/funding.

thats always been interesting to read and of course is relevant and that person is saying tonights manawatu races will most likely run at a loss.

well thats all true and good.

But Manawatu seems to be an easy target and is cherry picked while giving other areas of the industry a free pass.

to me there is a double standards being applied by many. (not referring to brodie there,even though he did start this topic, as hes pretty consistent).

but to give an example of what i mean by double standards.

where's the analysis of the data,for what must surely be the most uneconomic,special interest/ preferential treatment driven sector of the industry,  stakes /returns for 2 year old racing.

come on,for the first 8 months of the year we had 2 year old races with mostly 5 or 6 starters running for stakes in excess of other graded races with another $12,000 industry funded bonuses on top of that, paid out.Whats the data for the first 8 months time frame?

Like i said earlier,manawatu needs to be compared with other areas returns whether it be geographical or whether it be to 2 year old racing.

i agree with those that highlight the importance of financially underperforming areas of the industry.On the face of it,those on social media sites like this, seem far more willing to discuss the significance and the consequences thereof.

personally i believe there are workable,province specific business models which could ensure each areas continued participation.I ,along with others have discussed that before.

But the way i see it is this.

Industry leaders are just dumb. simple as that.Just not very clever.

The best example of that was the way they treated the horse utilisation report that many people from different areas of the industry poured time and energy into providing possible solutions/improvements to industry problems.

I thought it was full of common sense and from people in touch with reality.

But,seemingly because of that,HRNZ have not enacted most of the report.

You know i was talking to someone nopt that long ago. He was telling me he was talking to someone in power and the topic of the handicapping rating system came up. He was told by this person that if he wasn't happy with it,to sell his horse to australia. Basically give the game away. I was also told about another part of this persons conversation,which i laughed at because i thought he wasn't being serious,as it seemed such a dumb thing to say. But when i laughed the bloke i was talking to me said,i'm telling you,this is what was said.

 

Edited Thursday at 08:58 AM by the galah

[Taku Umanga]

5 hours ago, the galah said:

 

You know i was talking to someone nopt that long ago. He was telling me he was talking to someone in power and the topic of the handicapping rating system came up. He was told by this person that if he wasn't happy with it,to sell his horse to australia. Basically give the game away. I was also told about another part of this persons conversation,which i laughed at because i thought he wasn't being serious,as it seemed such a dumb thing to say. But when i laughed the bloke i was talking to me said,i'm telling you,this is what was said.

 

Or China - huge number of mares exported 15/11 ..... anyone know what sort of $$ they pay for these horses?

[the galah]

4 hours ago, Taku Umanga said:

Or China - huge number of mares exported 15/11 ..... anyone know what sort of $$ they pay for these horses?

From what i've heard from a couple of sellers,its up to about $10,000 for a mare and around $20-25,000 for the right stallion.I guess it varies a bit and i wouldn't guarantee those amounts,but thats what i've heard.

personally i still think its very questionable the future use in china of horses sold there.Just remember the other uses for broodmares for in that part of the world and remember what they did with all the donkeys they bought from africa.

But i can understand nz people selling, as many of the horses going there are unlikely to be bred from and some of their owners saw no future in breeding from them here given how they perceived the future of the industry here as relates to how perceived they were considered of little relevance.

Edited Thursday at 07:43 PM by the galah

[the galah]

actually the whole china export thing i find rather perplexing.

There was a 3 part story written for the paulick report,published just 2 months ago,about the expanding connection between the american thoroughbred industry and the chinese.

it was very interesting,but if you think about what was said in that series of articles,while harness racing wasn't discussed ,it left me with more questions than possible answers.

Like questions about understanding the thinking of the chinese. Comparethere approach to growing the thoriughbred industry there and how that doesn't mirror the same thing with harness horses being purchased from here.

Like obviously nz and australia have the advantage of the free trade agreement and australia in particular, apparently spend a lot of time and money promoting the purchase of yearlings ,by the chinese at their australian sales.

But like i say,from the articles written in that paulick report,you have to ask if the chinese are genuinely interested in establishing the harness industry over there,doesn't it make you question,if they are genuine,look at who they are purchasing here and the prices they are paying, given how much they will be spending on getting the horses back to china.

like its a whole different approach from what they are doing with their thoroughbreds.

like,the most obvious is,why have they mostly been buying older broodmares when they are supposed to be buying racing stock. I know the most recent batch on the export list,as they include a lot of 3 and 4 year old mares,but that hasn't been the case previously.

why haven't they,like their thoroughbred counterparts ,been buying yearlings and why haven't the sales companies here or in australia thought it worthwhile to promote chinese interest to any degree in the yealing sales held over here.  

seemingly the americans should have an advantage with the thoroughbreds as  most tracks in china aren't turf,but are dirt type tracks.

so doesn't that make you wonder,what about the harness tracks and exactly where are they and what surfaces are they.

theres heaps of other questions you could ask with no apparent readily known answers.

Thats why i personally think the whole china export thing has a lot of mystery around it,with not only possible good,but also bad scenarios that may play out.

Maybe the saying,ignorance is bliss,is the approach some sellers are taking as they can't possibly know tyhe exact use or the fate of those they are selling.

Edited yesterday at 02:40 AM by the galah