Brodie Posted January 13, 2019 Author Share Posted January 13, 2019 25 minutes ago, Rangatira said: got some wins out of happy patron, glencoe vc, its ella, shania patron and many more Of course he got plenty of wins from those horses, but how many more with a decent driver that wanted to win! The fact that his horses always go better when they come up to Regan Todd’s does say something though 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangatira Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 11 minutes ago, LongOwner said: How did Feel the Money go today - I say again not as good as Hewy came down the outside just like day one, just not as fast Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongOwner Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 23 hours ago, Joe Kidd said: Huey Lewis is a better horse than Feel The Money and should have started favourite? I disagree on both counts. I respect your understanding as a long owner. Having said that, I've been in the game for 40+ years and didn't come down in the last shower. Not a big fan of conspiracy theories but I do know as a fact the way we usually get to the truth is by asking questions. I'm also fully aware that in almost all gambling where large sums of money are involved, there will often be aspects hidden from view. The reality is, some of those aspects can at times be of a dubious nature. I remember as a younger fella seeing a certain Northern gallops trainer start three or four horses in the same race. His son was leading jockey umpteen times. I would lose count at the number of times the roughest of the stable runners would win. As a very keen student of form and one time professional punter I would look into all aspects of those results and see if there was anything untoward. I always came up empty. The reason I ask the question about Feel The Money is almost entirely related to the way it was driven. At no point did John Dunn take the raging hot favourite around to put pressure on the leader despite that being John's usual style of driving and how Feel The Money won it's previous race at Kaikoura very easily. I did put up a link to that race in my previous input on the subject. Could the horse not being put into the race be related to the fact it was the stablemate who was leading the race at the time and being gifted comfortable sectionals? No conspiracy in asking that prudent question in fact it would be comparable to an ostrich finding some sand to bury it's head in to ignore the possibility. It also needs to be asked why did John Dunn not move in the race until victory for the stablemate was virtually guaranteed? Surely, it would be reasonable to expect a decent horse who started very short and had enjoyed a soft run to be driven in a manner that at least gave him a chance of winning said race and feeling the money? I'm prepared to accept the possibility everything was transparent and the result was authentic but if we are all going to dismiss the possibility of anything else and not ask questions, we may as well give up the game and take up that offer from Nigeria to buy the Brooklyn Bridge. How is Heuy v’s FTM look now and favouritism you questioned ? i guess I am proved correct . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongOwner Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Rangatira said: came down the outside just like day one, just not as fast So that means not as good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangatira Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, LongOwner said: Those drugs you say I am on - to say Mcleland is a good / top driver - you must on them as well . dont spose you realise you were talking about valloria the other day hahahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangatira Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 12 minutes ago, Brodie said: Of course he got plenty of wins from those horses, but how many more with a decent driver that wanted to win! The fact that his horses always go better when they come up to Regan Todd’s does say something though no panic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterthepunter Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 47 minutes ago, Rangatira said: no panic panic ranga the brodsters on the money here about old snow 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangatira Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 6 minutes ago, hunterthepunter said: panic ranga the brodsters on the money here about old snow degenerate gamblers will have a more desperate view Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Kidd Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 39 minutes ago, LongOwner said: How is Heuy v’s FTM look now and favouritism you questioned ? i guess I am proved correct . Merit badges awarded to ones self are invariably of dubious value You stated several things that have in my opinion not been proven correct at all. Huey Lewis ran a solid race for a placing from a great draw in race 8 today. What exactly does that prove? That the horse is in good form and Blair Orange was able to give him another comfortable run during the race so there was still gas left in the tank at the end? It most certainly does not prove the horse is superior to Feel The Money. Stating that Feel The Money was only fav because of it's large group of owners is foolish and does the horses ability a disservice. For the record, in my not so humble opinion, Kotare Cullen is also a superior horse to Huey Lewis yet ran 15 lengths behind Huey today so is Huey Lewis now a better horse than Kotare Cullen also? Feel The Money was disappointing today. Will be interesting to see how she goes at Blenheim if in fact she starts there. The horse has not been right and I wonder if her outstanding final quarter on Friday flattened her. Time will tell but class is permanent. Lets revisit who is the superior horse at a later point. I standby questioning the drive on Friday. John Dunn is normally an aggressive driver and that proved successful with the horse at Kaikoura where she went round to the front and dominated for a very easy victory. Not unreasonable to expect similar of Friday but John Dunn didn't move until victory for the front running stablemate was virtually assured. It's not unreasonable to ask the question if Feel The Money would have been driven differently on Friday if the horse being gifted soft sectionals in front had not been the stablemate. You see it differently and that's fine and dandy..... but not necessarily correct. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted January 13, 2019 Author Share Posted January 13, 2019 (edited) Joe Kidd, totally agree with you! Robert Dunn when interviewed stated that Feel The Money had more ability than the winner of that last race Spot On! FTM and that doesn’t stand for Fart Too Much had poor draws both days! Huey Lewis went good both days from far better draws. All you can do is win which is what Huey did, FTM had to do plenty of work from the bad draws. FTM may not have backed up that well from the first days run, but she did actually run the last half far faster than what Huey Lewis did and she was wide without cover! No need to debate much more as your opinion against mine and Joe Kidd and the proof will be in the next few months. Edited January 13, 2019 by Brodie 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the galah Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Rangatira said: degenerate gamblers will have a more desperate view degenerate-meaning immoral or corrupt. ahh. yes.... but not the gamblers. I know you take the mickey,either that or you don't watch southland harness. Edited January 13, 2019 by the galah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westview Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 On 13 January 2019 at 8:38 PM, Joe Kidd said: Merit badges awarded to ones self are invariably of dubious value You stated several things that have in my opinion not been proven correct at all. Huey Lewis ran a solid race for a placing from a great draw in race 8 today. What exactly does that prove? That the horse is in good form and Blair Orange was able to give him another comfortable run during the race so there was still gas left in the tank at the end? It most certainly does not prove the horse is superior to Feel The Money. Stating that Feel The Money was only fav because of it's large group of owners is foolish and does the horses ability a disservice. For the record, in my not so humble opinion, Kotare Cullen is also a superior horse to Huey Lewis yet ran 15 lengths behind Huey today so is Huey Lewis now a better horse than Kotare Cullen also? Feel The Money was disappointing today. Will be interesting to see how she goes at Blenheim if in fact she starts there. The horse has not been right and I wonder if her outstanding final quarter on Friday flattened her. Time will tell but class is permanent. Lets revisit who is the superior horse at a later point. I standby questioning the drive on Friday. John Dunn is normally an aggressive driver and that proved successful with the horse at Kaikoura where she went round to the front and dominated for a very easy victory. Not unreasonable to expect similar of Friday but John Dunn didn't move until victory for the front running stablemate was virtually assured. It's not unreasonable to ask the question if Feel The Money would have been driven differently on Friday if the horse being gifted soft sectionals in front had not been the stablemate. You see it differently and that's fine and dandy..... but not necessarily correct. Take it from me , we have been battling since cup week to get Feel the Money back to her best , on her previous form she would have smashed both those fields at Auckland and Nelson. To read sum sort of stable pull up job is just a load of crap, Westview horses have never been pulled up or ever will be. I could write a page on all the details of her last few runs but I probably know I would be wasting my time but if you join a Westview syndicate and read my emails you would know all that. Please feel free to call me anytime or ask me any question on here. Regards Nigel Armstrong 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted January 14, 2019 Author Share Posted January 14, 2019 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Westview said: Take it from me , we have been battling since cup week to get Feel the Money back to her best , on her previous form she would have smashed both those fields at Auckland and Nelson. To read sum sort of stable pull up job is just a load of crap, Westview horses have never been pulled up or ever will be. I could write a page on all the details of her last few runs but I probably know I would be wasting my time but if you join a Westview syndicate and read my emails you would know all that. Please feel free to call me anytime or ask me any question on here. Regards Nigel Armstrong Straight from the horses mouth basically! Yes, as Brodie stated, Feel The Money is a very good mare! She will be back, and look out! Good win yesterday Nigel by your other horse up In Nelson, Tuapeka Trick! Keep up the excellent work you and Brenda are doing in trying to het new owners into harness racing! Edited January 14, 2019 by Brodie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Kidd Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 9 hours ago, Westview said: Take it from me , we have been battling since cup week to get Feel the Money back to her best , on her previous form she would have smashed both those fields at Auckland and Nelson. To read sum sort of stable pull up job is just a load of crap, Westview horses have never been pulled up or ever will be. I could write a page on all the details of her last few runs but I probably know I would be wasting my time but if you join a Westview syndicate and read my emails you would know all that. Please feel free to call me anytime or ask me any question on here. Regards Nigel Armstrong Hey Nigel, The internet is full of warriors that wouldn't have the nuts to repeat 1% of what they spout off with no consequence online. They are my pet hate in life. I would never say a word via text, email, phone, online forum etc that I wouldn't happily repeat offline. I've been in the game for 40 years. We've raced numerous horses and I had a three year stint as a professional punter on both sides of the ditch. I consider myself to be a very keen student of form. You will obviously be aware of Richmond Park racecourse in Nelson. Nearby is McShane Road. Our family lived there for 20 years and never missed a meeting at Nelson. I see that far quit from the oxidation pond fart to much is critical of anyone who has the audacity to question the authenticity of any race, especially one that involves a protected species. There are thousands of race results around NZ every year that are not 100% authentic. Rorts come in all shapes and sizes. I've seen many up close and personal and have benefited considerably from the outcome. Horses being set up for a punt is routine. Horses starting in events that the trainer knows without doubt they have no hope of being in the finish for whatever reason. Trainers being very selective in the races they target to win. Racehorse management is prudent but my punting dollar is worth the same amount in a race the trainer is not after as it is in a race he's sincere about winning. If a horse is capable of winning in the grade it's in but will struggle in the grade up, it's not rare for that horse to be driven routinely in a way where it often picks up place money only. We've all seen it. I know first hand of an incident where the trainer lost the plot with his rider after winning a race on the first day of a two day meeting. The jockey was told the owner was not ontrack that day but would be for the second day so was given instructions that would see the horse running on but far too late to figure. Horse went better than the trainer wanted and won very easily. Trainer was incensed and the one time very prominent South Island rider with the initials G.D was was abused not 20 feet from me for a solid five minutes. He was told he would never ride for him again or anyone he had influence with. Trainer calmed down a bit later but you can't unscramble a scrambled egg. I along with numerous others knew first hand about dozens of small scale rorts over the years at the Nelson meeting ironically. The circuit would see Canterbury horses run both days at Nelson and then follow the circuit for the Blenheim meeting at Waterlea. What could be tricky was with horses owned in Blenheim where winning races at their local meeting was very desirable for the connections. We knew to look and learn at Nelson and leave the folding in the back pocket. Driven in a manner both days at Nelson so they were ready for Blenheim but not signposted. No meaningful money came at Nelson. Off to Blenheim and a different ballgame. Tidal wave of money arrives. Horse driven completely differently virtually night and day. Instead of looking for a place to hide, you could see he was there to win and invariably did. I have thousands of similar yarns. It's incredibly easy to mask a less that authentic attempt to win a race. Position and timing of your run are the two biggies. Watch a horse and more especially the driver where a flood of money has come for it. They don't allow themselves to be buried hopelessly on the fence. Driver pays close attention when the train goes forward and don't allow themselves to be "all dressed up with nowhere to go". Timing is huge. Set off from the back a later than you should have and you're now no realistic hope of winning but a good chance of picking up some crumbs. Don't get me started about little and not so favours for each other in races by people who are connected, especially by blood. Without giving too much away or speaking on behalf without a persons blessing, I will give you an example I'm sure Don will be fine with me sharing. I was nearby. Dillon Dean 1988 Great Northern Derby. BP wished Don well before the race. Duel Fuel was BP's sacrificial lamb. Attacked Dillon Dean relentlessly and was stuffed prior to the home turn. Ran a distant last in what was the worst run of it's career. Stablemate Godfrey on the other hand was the beneficiary and nailed an exhausted Dillon Dean close to home. Turned my blood cold. Dillon Dean beat Godfrey in the 150k NZ Derby at Addington. Feel The Money as you know is a very speedy mare with enough ability to race successfully in the higher grades. The suggestion that Huey Lewis is the superior of the two is not one I agree with at all. I understand Feel The Money has not been 100% so you don't need a gut busting run flattening her. Having said that, she is plenty good enough to control a race from the front end or outside the leader and still dominate at the end. On Friday, normally aggressive driver John Dunn followed Apocalypse while stablemate Huey Lewis was being gifted easy sectionals up front. The questions I ask are, would John Dunn have allowed Huey Lewis to be gifted a race winning lead if it wasn't the stablemate and would he have started his run sooner if the leader was a non stablemate? Not unreasonable questions to my eye. It's not about pulling a horse up or anything extreme like that. It's a matter of timing only. I'm satisfied without doubt that Feel The Money's effort in the home straight was 100% authentic in fact, it was so authentic in a quick last quarter that it appears to have flattened Feel The Money. Her run on Sunday was very disappointing for a quality mare. I'm sure she will bounce back. Good luck with her. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hesi Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 That's a very good post JK I recall NZTR did some market research a while ago, about the public's perception of racing, and the most significant result they got, was that people don't bet on horse racing, because they perceive, unless you are 'in the know', you are at a significant disadvantage. The way of the world I guess, well the racing world anyway. With the same research, they also found, that the most positive thing about racing, was how well perceived at day at the races was. I always thought that was the way ahead. Xmas at the Races embodied that, but needed greatly expanding on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westview Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 FEEL THE MONEY went to Auckland and we had great expectations of her, she won a trial up there so we went into her first race very confident. After her run John was very disappointed along with us as we traveled up there to watch her, we got her blood tested and found nothing. Next start up there she went worse and again we had her checked out and found nothing again so we pulled the pin and brought her home along with Tuapeka Trick who was having the same problems. Our vet down here couldn't find anything so we gave them both a couple of days off then started again. They both seemed fine so we privately trailed them at Rangiora, again there blood was fine they both came home in 26 and their heart rates were good. On Friday John was disappointed with Trick and felt he didn't put in 100% so drove him hard on Sunday. Feel the Money got a good run and John though she should have won with the run she got but she just didn't feel right. Two of our Auckland owners flew down just for the first day on John's advise so pulling it up, I don't think so. Because her race on Friday was so late we didn't get a chance to get her blood done, so now with the stupid rules you can't do it one clear day out or treat them for anything like dehydration,whkch should be a animal welfare issue but don't get me started there. She is now back in CHRISTCHURCH and will be undergoing a full vet check again. The only thing we can put it down to at this stage is cupday has taken its toll. Just as an aside she holds the track record at Nelson for 3yr olds at 2.55 I think I that speaks for itself. Cheers Nigel 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Kidd Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 1 hour ago, hesi said: That's a very good post JK I recall NZTR did some market research a while ago, about the public's perception of racing, and the most significant result they got, was that people don't bet on horse racing, because they perceive, unless you are 'in the know', you are at a significant disadvantage. The way of the world I guess, well the racing world anyway. With the same research, they also found, that the most positive thing about racing, was how well perceived at day at the races was. I always thought that was the way ahead. Xmas at the Races embodied that, but needed greatly expanding on. Cheers Hesi, Motivation to win a particular race is huge. It dictates how the horse is conditioned in the lead up, what money is wagered and how the horse is driven / ridden. Win the wrong race at the wrong time and you've just shot yourself in the foot. That win may actually prevent you from winning the race you really wanted so the win ends up costing you money. Managing things to get the best long term outcome is prudent. Knowing the motivation going into a race is gold for a punter. Gifts you a huge advantage. The horses involved are not pulled etc in their previous runs. They are managed. Anyone who does not believe this to be routine, should not be punting. Some of the older heads will tell you it's only a rort if you're not in on it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Kidd Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Westview said: FEEL THE MONEY went to Auckland and we had great expectations of her, she won a trial up there so we went into her first race very confident. After her run John was very disappointed along with us as we traveled up there to watch her, we got her blood tested and found nothing. Next start up there she went worse and again we had her checked out and found nothing again so we pulled the pin and brought her home along with Tuapeka Trick who was having the same problems. Our vet down here couldn't find anything so we gave them both a couple of days off then started again. They both seemed fine so we privately trailed them at Rangiora, again there blood was fine they both came home in 26 and their heart rates were good. On Friday John was disappointed with Trick and felt he didn't put in 100% so drove him hard on Sunday. Feel the Money got a good run and John though she should have won with the run she got but she just didn't feel right. Two of our Auckland owners flew down just for the first day on John's advise so pulling it up, I don't think so. Because her race on Friday was so late we didn't get a chance to get her blood done, so now with the stupid rules you can't do it one clear day out or treat them for anything like dehydration,whkch should be a animal welfare issue but don't get me started there. She is now back in CHRISTCHURCH and will be undergoing a full vet check again. The only thing we can put it down to at this stage is cupday has taken its toll. Just as an aside she holds the track record at Nelson for 3yr olds at 2.55 I think I that speaks for itself. Cheers Nigel Not surprised you're not taking her to Blenheim Nigel if that was ever the intention. Something clearly not right on Sunday. It was known she'd had issues but the assumption was that starting at Nelson pointed to her being 100% again. Will likely make the same assumption when she next lines up. I'm confident you will all have a lot of fun with her. Good luck. Cheers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the galah Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 Westview. Just one point you made which I think needs clarified.You mention the 1 day rule and not being able to treat for dehydration and other possible animal welfare issues.. The notice on the hrnz website last week I thought specifically referred to that and said horses could be treated under official supervision or if permission was officially granted.. Of course the reason for such a rule is to try and prevent stables giving their horses substances on raceday that would enhance performance. Of course that is a very hard rule to enforce. I note apparently 2 people connected with the same stable currently have a charge pending in court for that very reason. You do a good job promoting harness racing and through that a lot of people have a good deal of fun. keep up the good work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globederby12 Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Joe Kidd said: Managing things to get the best long term outcome is prudent. But not always achievable. So Joe punter has to factor that into the equation as well, not an easy task. My son in law has trained gallops for a long time. After watching him over a period of time I decided very quickly to stay away from punting on the TB,s, and stay with my beloved Harness. Your last statement "its only a rort if you,re not in on it" rings very true. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westview Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 1 hour ago, the galah said: Westview. Just one point you made which I think needs clarified.You mention the 1 day rule and not being able to treat for dehydration and other possible animal welfare issues.. The notice on the hrnz website last week I thought specifically referred to that and said horses could be treated under official supervision or if permission was officially granted.. Of course the reason for such a rule is to try and prevent stables giving their horses substances on raceday that would enhance performance. Of course that is a very hard rule to enforce. I note apparently 2 people connected with the same stable currently have a charge pending in court for that very reason. You do a good job promoting harness racing and through that a lot of people have a good deal of fun. keep up the good work. It's still a very grey area, on a normal two day meeting we would give a horse half a tube of boost after the race then the other half the next. Now as I see it you can't do that and we don't, I'm unsure on the finer details of the rules but calling a vet to administer a simple non withholding period vitamin or adding a supplement to a feed is just going to hit the owner in the pocket again. I think a lot of trainers are being very cautious and I don't blame them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westview Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 The new rule is not only for race day it includes the day before. If you race Friday, midnight on that day is the cut off for Sunday racing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterthepunter Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 well Kane is still getting away with new rule 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the galah Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 On 13/01/2019 at 3:00 PM, the galah said: one thing john dunn does do is normally put them in the race.Same as blair orange . They move at the right time 98% of the time,and if they aren't good enough they don't knock them about. So few drivers do that on a consistent basis,even when on the better horses. Watching the races at Timaru today its quite noticeable how the good drivers like May, Williamson, Williams make the racing far more competitive and exciting to watch. That seems to rub off onto other drivers as well. Lets hope none of them get suspended as they make the racing worth watching.,even if you don't back a winner. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.