Thomass Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 So the Pro Punters, jockeys agents, Trackside presenters et el did the SPEED MAPS for this race...and obviously he'd either lead or race handy Where it's always been... Waddell and Bary had different ideas Shags out the back...and storms home killing off the BGP multi in the process Austrwlian Punters would have GOT NOTIFIED!! NZ Punters? Na...no respect from the industry...just more SUK IT UP LOSERS FFS...when our competitors like Singapore and Australia are giving INTEGRITY of the product priority... we don't give a monkeys...thanks NZTR/RIU for nothing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globederby12 Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 That was neat of them, well planned. I work for someone who has Barry as their trainer. Lol.. It's not what you know Thomas it's who you know. You can tilt at windmills all you like , aint nothing gonna change anytime soon. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaltedMilkshake Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 And that is why there is absolutely NO credibility regarding NZ racing...and yes, there would now be a full blown inquiry into the performance of King Louis in Sydney and definitely Hong Kong. GD, I don’t think you understand - no punters, no industry...kill the punter, kill the industry...and that is why the industry is in the parlous state it finds itself in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 (edited) 31 minutes ago, MaltedMilkshake said: And that is why there is absolutely NO credibility regarding NZ racing...and yes, there would now be a full blown inquiry into the performance of King Louis in Sydney and definitely Hong Kong. GD, I don’t think you understand - no punters, no industry...kill the punter, kill the industry...and that is why the industry is in the parlous state it finds itself in. I disagree. Trainers are there to win races. They should be able to change whatever they like to try and win the race. Punters don't get to know what things the trainer has done differently at training or in their feed regime or how much shit they dropped the last 24 hours. In oz, when there is a change of tactics and it goes un-notified, they just tell them any old thing to satisfy the feds. The intention notified by trainers often don't even come about. An intention doesn't mean a doing. Integrity is applied by the horse needing to race on its merits. That's integrity. Try telling the All Blacks they need to tell everyone their change in tactics because punters might want to bet with them. It's absurd. Edited January 28, 2019 by mardigras 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 I think it would only be a problem if the trainer misled the punters with comments prior to the race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandpiper Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 Has a runner in Aus ever been DQ'd or demoted owing to failure to notify? If not, whats the point? Fines dont change dividends. So stop 'protecting punters'! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 So you get a race that has 6 horses that normally lead -there will be some of them change their tactics , usually after the start has been made. Most times I give jockeys instructions they end up not meeting them -not their fault, its just what happens. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turny Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 (edited) Freda get better jockeys - pretty simple - get hoops who can read a race - 101 surely Edited January 28, 2019 by Turny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 1 hour ago, Turny said: Freda get better jockeys - pretty simple - get hoops who can read a race - 101 surely Are you just plain thick ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shivaree Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 Sword of Osman shied at the two advertising signs short of the post. Notice had they were removed after Race 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globederby12 Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 4 hours ago, MaltedMilkshake said: And that is why there is absolutely NO credibility regarding NZ racing...and yes, there would now be a full blown inquiry into the performance of King Louis in Sydney and definitely Hong Kong. GD, I don’t think you understand - no punters, no industry...kill the punter, kill the industry...and that is why the industry is in the parlous state it finds itself in. MM I understand only to well. My son in law has trained Tbs for years, so I know the various methods used , so I am in Mardigras camp on this one. Healthy debate so far tho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 (edited) I've got a foot in both camps. I think punters must be kept informed - within reason. Obviously every little change to feed/work/tactics is both unnecessary and impractical to notify; yet, punters are what keeps the whole operation going, so some attention to what they want as a group is important. The lot I have going around at the moment are of such modest achievement that I doubt if a punter in the land would give a toss how they are ridden. But the fact that a known good performer is having a tactic change possibly is of interest. Edited January 28, 2019 by Freda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 32 minutes ago, Freda said: But the fact that a known good performer is having a tactic change possibly is of interest. Certainly may be Freda. My issue would be when will it end? A punter can certainly look at a race and doesn't have to be blinkered into how a horse will run. If a known good performer is in the race, there is nothing stopping the punter considering that they may change the way it's been racing - and they can assess that themselves and consider whether that may make a difference. How will punters feel if a known good horse has a change of tactics notified, the punters in the main think the change is not going to help the horse, the price lengthens out, the horse doesn't follow the change of tactics and the horse wins. They don't have to do the change anyway, so the knowledge was a negative to those punters that were interested in the change. Who are the feds going to charge when every single horse that doesn't normally lead notifies of a change of tactics to lead? A bit like Fred's example, except in this case, they've all notified a change that is to have them lead. They can't all lead. Punting should be about assessing the horse (and even the tactics of the trainer/jockey) against the opposition - the same way it is in sports betting. Assessing the team and the tactics that might be employed by the trainers - against the opposition. Many punters want to be spoon fed everything. But not having everything is what creates a more diverse set of opinions - something actually useful to punters since it creates price variance. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopia Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 Some people responding to Tommo's original post, and also Tommo, seem to think that owners/trainers/jockeys are involved in some type of conspiracy to cheat punters out of their hard earned $$$....I don't subscribe to that theory. Unless your'e talking about horses like Winx or Black Caviar or other absolute champions, horse is racing is far from an 'exact' science. Isn't that the attraction? If you don't like risking your dough, stick it in the bank at a fixed interest rate-then you'll know exactly what you're going to get. Having a punt is totally the opposite. Its the unknown, the unexpected, that is the 'drug' of having a punt. So. Don't expect to be told everything-you have to work some things out for yourself. And I agree with mardigras-don't expect to be spoon fed. And please, don't go crying to mummy if the race doesn't work out the way you expected and you lost your cash. Harden up. What's that expression from some US President..." if you can't stand the heat-don't go into the kitchen". Brilliant. (Pity that he was an absolute fraud and a cheat.-Nixon ) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 28, 2019 Author Share Posted January 28, 2019 3 hours ago, Freda said: I've got a foot in both camps. I think punters must be kept informed - within reason. Obviously every little change to feed/work/tactics is both unnecessary and impractical to notify; yet, punters are what keeps the whole operation going, so some attention to what they want as a group is important. The lot I have going around at the moment are of such modest achievement that I doubt if a punter in the land would give a toss how they are ridden. But the fact that a known good performer is having a tactic change possibly is of interest. Let's do the World wide cost of a Burger thang McFly opens his Burger joint up with a standard McDonalds type plastic fantastic... Freda come to town with Guns ablazing and opens a Royale with Cheese joint Where does Joe punter go?? ...forgetting about the exorbitant price Freda charges to re coup punting losses following McFly's fleas.. Joe goes to the joint that looks after him that's where Information galore.... ...our Stipes can't even be bothered tweeting wind ops, mares in foal, exact pen readings... Instead the Thoroughbred Punter receives all of the Dirty Dog and Harness tweets as well....just to piss him off Its a no brainer Remrmber Matto getting off the Logan trained horse in the lead up to the Derby?? Journos wondering why the horse was snagged back instead of on pace "we were experimenting" Yep, read EXPERIMENTING WITH PUNTERS MONEY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 Nothing wrong with experimenting. As long as the horse runs on its merits in the experiment. And they aren't using the experiment to train the horse or to get the horse fit. Gear changes are experiments. They happen every day - with punters money. When the All Blacks experiment, no one says they're experimenting with punters money. The same in racing, trying something different to win races. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaltedMilkshake Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 On 28/01/2019 at 3:13 PM, mardigras said: I disagree. Trainers are there to win races. They should be able to change whatever they like to try and win the race. Punters don't get to know what things the trainer has done differently at training or in their feed regime or how much shit they dropped the last 24 hours. In oz, when there is a change of tactics and it goes un-notified, they just tell them any old thing to satisfy the feds. The intention notified by trainers often don't even come about. An intention doesn't mean a doing. Integrity is applied by the horse needing to race on its merits. That's integrity. Try telling the All Blacks they need to tell everyone their change in tactics because punters might want to bet with them. It's absurd. Rod, In years past I would have agreed with you...we had a mega punter who enforced that regime within our stable...He would wager 10s of 1000s when one of our stable set one up. We didn’t race for the huge prize money then, so we set them up for punt, just like most good stables. However today with so much focus on transparency & integrity, trainers have a responsibility to be as open as possible. In many ways, why do you think Hong Kong is a punters paradise...because you can’t sneeze without reporting to authorities. And if you don’t toe the line, you can end up in gaol...a la Chris Munce. I believe when we’re trying to work out ways to increase funding for our industry, transparency and integrity is paramount. Because as soon as a whiff of anything untoward has occurred, the uninformed media will be all over it - and not in a positive way. We need the punters to be putting the money through the TAB because that’s how our industry is funded...and we can’t afford to lose those punters. That’s why I’m so critical of the RIU....they never ask the hard questions... Yes, I loved the old days in racing...and believe me, I could write a book on the happenings in Melbourne in the ‘80s...but like everything the times are a changing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 Maybe MM, but tactics are hardly an integrity issue. And tactics can't be enforced. Therein lies the problem. They are a future thing, not information of something in the past. And I'm not sure HK is a punters paradise. It is probably a paradise for a few leveraging off the very eager punting population. I don't disagree with the issues around the RIU. But how can this be an integrity issue? The horse should be allowed to race wherever the rider/the trainer/the horse decides. So long as the horse is given the opportunity to run on its merits, there is no lack of integrity, there is simply a lack of punter understanding something that is variable. If the performance lacks integrity, the performance should be investigated. Where it raced has nothing to do with that - it is simply a notion of punters believing something they really had no right to believe. It's become a world of spoon feeding punters. The idea that more information increases betting revenues hasn't been proven. NZ racing has had more and more information over time and betting revenue has done nothing but drop for years. Maybe you could offer at which point in the information providing highway, NZ racing is going to increase betting revenues? Some information might well be invaluable from a punter retention point of view. I'd question this issue does anything to retain punters that would otherwise go. The number of followers of the various Australian jurisdictions on twitter where these things are put out is tiny. For something supposedly such an outrage, the massive majority of punters aren't even interested in getting the info. It's mountain/molehill stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 On the subject of integrity MM, would you consider this to be an integrity issue - and how does it compare to change in tactics? A comment from a trainer after winning a big race, such as 'we knew he would perform better with blinkers on, so we wanted to wait for this race to apply them'. It's all very well and good saying that the punters knew about the gear change for 'this' race. But is it open and transparent of trainers who didn't tell you this before the earlier races. Did punters know that the trainer was deliberately presenting a horse to the races in a manner 'knowing' it could perform better just by applying a gear change? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasel Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 On 28/01/2019 at 5:00 PM, Thomass said: On 28/01/2019 at 5:00 PM, Thomass said: and obviously he'd either lead or race handy Where it's always been... drew 8 of 9 (that's one from the outside, Thomass), so why obvious that he'd lead or race handy? Makes sense to drop back save ground, save energy, find a gap in a small-ish filed and storm home. Brilliant ride. Well done to the connections. SSounds to me like you're talking through a big hole in your pocket put there by the (unbeatably sharp???) Sword of Osman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaltedMilkshake Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 OK - I think we’re going to agree to disagree on this issue...but I thought it was worthy of discussion and we’ve been able to do this in a civil and respectful manner ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 1 hour ago, MaltedMilkshake said: OK - I think we’re going to agree to disagree on this issue...but I thought it was worthy of discussion and we’ve been able to do this in a civil and respectful manner ? For sure MM. Information and what should be available is always an interesting topic. One of my main aversions to requiring more and more information is that in a place like NZ, everything costs and we are a small player which is struggling. To justify adding costs no matter how trivial to the process, needs to ensure the costs deliver some tangible benefits. Nothing comes for free and enforcing such a rule here WILL have costs. But I just don't see any tangible benefits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter RS Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Interesting discussion. I was at Murwillumbah one day and it was announced on course that xyz (a well favoured runner but no recent form) was going to change tactics and race on the pace today. Jumped a bit tardy and jockey got it up to one one position beautifully behind a good pace, challenged in the straight and won well. There was a stewards instituted enquire ffs before correct weight, because the prearranged tactics change didn’t eventuate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowley Mile Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Peter RS said: Interesting discussion. I was at Murwillumbah one day and it was announced on course that xyz (a well favoured runner but no recent form) was going to change tactics and race on the pace today. Jumped a bit tardy and jockey got it up to one one position beautifully behind a good pace, challenged in the straight and won well. There was a stewards instituted enquire ffs before correct weight, because the prearranged tactics change didn’t eventuate! How pissed were they? the stewards I mean. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted February 5, 2019 Author Share Posted February 5, 2019 On 30/01/2019 at 3:33 PM, mardigras said: For sure MM. Information and what should be available is always an interesting topic. One of my main aversions to requiring more and more information is that in a place like NZ, everything costs and we are a small player which is struggling. To justify adding costs no matter how trivial to the process, needs to ensure the costs deliver some tangible benefits. Nothing comes for free and enforcing such a rule here WILL have costs. But I just don't see any tangible benefits. How ridiculous what cost is there in connections informing Stewards and then tweeting for 20 seconds? sfa Heres how good the opposition is in providing their customers with info...and if that intention changes... Punters receive the courtesy of being notified Its called having INTEGRITY In the Product to be sold No wonder NZ Racing is struggling for punters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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