McGrath Eight Year Ban...

[Mehe]

So you wont answer will you 

[Rangatira]

9 minutes ago, JJ Flash said:

Im pretty sure not all would agree to first sentence but thanks anyway. As for his next career move could GB introduce him to the glamour world of car sales.After all i'm guessing NM helped him out a few times

 

Greg

might have too much "integrity" to be a car salesman

[Mehe]

14 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

might have too much "integrity" to be a car salesman

Cattle I'm picking

Edited July 7, 2020 by Mehe

[Rangatira]

5 minutes ago, Mehe said:

Cattle I'm picking

on the money again mehe

has an excellent cattleman with unique talent on board already

Edited July 7, 2020 by Rangatira

[JJ Flash]

23 minutes ago, Mehe said:

So you wont answer will you 

Not to you any more because ive already answered you . Milo summed you up well earlier.

 

Greg

[JJ Flash]

5 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

has an excellent cattleman with unique talent on board already

Last seen sulking north of Christchurch? Would have thought he would have been on Cloud Nine

 

Greg

[Mehe]

Haha your a funny fellow 

You didnt answer the question at all I said this is what you have wanted all alone you went off saying what you have said

[Rangatira]

1 minute ago, JJ Flash said:

Last seen sulking north of Christchurch? Would have thought he would have been on Cloud Nine

 

Greg

seems out of range internet wise

probably busy celebrating the recent sale of bucking billy aka cloud nine

 

[hunterthepunter]

6 hours ago, JJ Flash said:

 summed you up well earlier.

 

Greg

arse hole would some you up jj flash or is it Gregory Paul HOWELY 

[hunterthepunter]

23 hours ago, the galah said:

  pre race drenching. 

was that before you had a 15 year drought when training yourself Dave????

[the galah]

2 hours ago, hunterthepunter said:

was that before you had a 15 year drought when training yourself Dave????

Your getting a bit tiresome. I couldn't care less if you know my real identity,but clearly you don't. Keep guessing. I'll tell you when your right.Right area ,wrong details.

When do you think you will wake up and realise that defending the actions of  someone who seeks to gain an advantage over others by operating outside the rules,is a reflection on you. Perhaps if Mcgrath had people around him who said do everything by the book then he would not be where he is today.I'm tired of listening to apologists for actions of people who seek to gain an illegal advantage.Yours is "its o.k. for us to do it,but not anyone else". I'm consistent,your not in my opinion. Is this really about Mcgrath,or is he just the unfortunate person who is dealing with all the crap thats goes with being caught?

On 6/07/2020 at 10:50 PM, Noodlum said:

Allegedly ATTEMPTED to pre-race drench.

He was found guilty to attempting. Its not alleged. He said it was to be  air support to be drenched in the horses mouth,the jca said they found that was most likely a lie,but couldn't completely rule out his explanation it was to be air support. They didn't believe Burrows when he said his initial statement was inaccurate because he was effected by cannabis and alcohol.Read the jca report if you still think it was alleged.

 

Edited July 7, 2020 by the galah

[Noodlum]

8 hours ago, the galah said:

He was found guilty to attempting. Its not alleged. He said it was to be  air support to be drenched in the horses mouth,the jca said they found that was most likely a lie,but couldn't completely rule out his explanation it was to be air support. They didn't believe Burrows when he said his initial statement was inaccurate because he was effected by cannabis and alcohol.Read the jca report if you still think it was alleged.

 

I have read the report - several times in fact.  I'm not sure you have.

He wasn't FOUND guilty he PLEADED guilty.  There is a difference.

There was only one charge that concerned cheating.  That was the charge of "ATTEMPTING to administer a prohibited substance."  There was no proof what that substance was nor how it was administered.  The RIU says TCO2 by tubing.  McGrath says Air Supply by oral syringe.  I'd argue that if McGrath was in a different space he could have defended that charge.  He may have failed under the burden of proof principle that the JCA applies but I'd say he wouldn't have failed to defend that charge in court.

The other two charges which were both serious arose from his behaviour in response to the raid which when taking into consideration borders on harassment.  Most of the harness world have had a gutsful of exDetective Plod Grimstone hiding in bushes as if he works for the FBI!  McGrath also pleaded guilty to those charges and based on the evidence he didn't have a shit show of defending them.  Although he could have possibly leveraged against the first charge which was purely circumstantial and no more than speculative.  The RIU would have to have provided substantial evidence that they had cause to inspect in the first place.

But isn't there a bigger issue here?  Unless the RIU are more inept and incompetent than we give them credit for if they suspected the horse had been tubed with TCO2 why didn't they wait until it was stabled on course and tested it.  Is it because they have no confidence in their testing?  Or is the penalty for a positive TCO2 test too light?

You could raid all stables and find tubing equipment close to horses that are in training.

[the galah]

4 hours ago, Noodlum said:

I have read the report - several times in fact.  I'm not sure you have.

He wasn't FOUND guilty he PLEADED guilty.  There is a difference.

There was only one charge that concerned cheating.  That was the charge of "ATTEMPTING to administer a prohibited substance."  There was no proof what that substance was nor how it was administered.  The RIU says TCO2 by tubing.  McGrath says Air Supply by oral syringe.  I'd argue that if McGrath was in a different space he could have defended that charge.  He may have failed under the burden of proof principle that the JCA applies but I'd say he wouldn't have failed to defend that charge in court.

The other two charges which were both serious arose from his behaviour in response to the raid which when taking into consideration borders on harassment.  Most of the harness world have had a gutsful of exDetective Plod Grimstone hiding in bushes as if he works for the FBI!  McGrath also pleaded guilty to those charges and based on the evidence he didn't have a shit show of defending them.  Although he could have possibly leveraged against the first charge which was purely circumstantial and no more than speculative.  The RIU would have to have provided substantial evidence that they had cause to inspect in the first place.

But isn't there a bigger issue here?  Unless the RIU are more inept and incompetent than we give them credit for if they suspected the horse had been tubed with TCO2 why didn't they wait until it was stabled on course and tested it.  Is it because they have no confidence in their testing?  Or is the penalty for a positive TCO2 test too light?

You could raid all stables and find tubing equipment close to horses that are in training.

You said alleged,i responded by saying he was found guilty,now you say there is a difference between pleading guilty and being found guilty.Either way its semantics,its not alleged as you claimed.

You say he could have defended that charge,but then say that he would have got off in the courts,but not the racing jurisdiction because of the lesser burden of proof. Well that may be true,but the  charges were laid in the racing jurisdiction,so that's no doubt why he pleaded guilty.

You say members of the RIU uncovering activity is harassment. Is that what you call it? And here was i thinking it meant they were actually doing their job.

 You say most of the harness racing world have had a gutsful of someone  doing things like hiding in the bushes. I say the reason many have had a gutsful is because it has exposed what some get up to.  Have you ever considered that many have had a gutsful of  competing against other trainers who they think have an illegal advantage over them. Have you ever thought that some trainers resort to pre race treatments because of that very reason?  Have you ever thought that uncovering illegal activity is a good thing.

Have you ever thought that many have had a gutsful of listening to people focus on how someone was exposed,as if they were the guilty party,all the while defending the person who has been charged. Can't people see that is wrong.  

You say his behaviour was in response to the harassment. Here was i thinking it was because he didn't want them to take possession of what he was about to give his horses. Some say the RIU should have waited and caught him in the act,well the reality is either way he faced very serious charges as a result of not co operating.

You refer to TCO2 testing.  Come on. seriously. Do you really think everyone who pre race drenchs a horse with performance enhancers is going to get a tc02 level above the legal limit.  I do agree that the resources put into tco2 testing is far too much given the lack of results. 

I do agree with you that a lot of stables would have tubing equipment close to horses in training. Then again some trainers would not.

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by the galah

[Noodlum]

58 minutes ago, the galah said:

You said alleged,i responded by saying he was found guilty,now you say there is a difference between pleading guilty and being found guilty.Either way its semantics,its not alleged as you claimed.

 

As you say it is only semantics.  But the information that was laid that McGrath was attempting to tube with TCO2 remains alleged.  McGrath pleaded guilty to attempting to administer a substance.  Whether it was TCO2, tubed or otherwise remains unproven!

[Noodlum]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

 You say most of the harness racing world have had a gutsful of someone  doing things like hiding in the bushes. I say the reason many have had a gutsful is because it has exposed what some get up to.  Have you ever considered that many have had a gutsful of  competing against other trainers who they think have an illegal advantage over them. Have you ever thought that some trainers resort to pre race treatments because of that very reason?  Have you ever thought that uncovering illegal activity is a good thing.

 

The point that I was trying to make, and I admit rather obliquely, was that hiding in bushes acting like someone out of a TV crime series does nothing more than create disrespect.  If they were truly on top of what you infer is widespread cheating then they should sort their shit out with the testing pre and post race on course.  That will be a better deterrent than doing it in a way that anyone with any intelligence and creativity will work out a way around. Geez doesn't take much money now days to invest in cameras and motion detectors or even more simply have someone pruning the hedge!

From a confidence in the testing regime respective it has only proven what many suspect and that is it is useless at finding cheats!

Edited July 8, 2020 by Noodlum

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Noodlum said:

The point that I was trying to make, and I admit rather obliquely, was that hiding in bushes acting like someone out of a TV crime series does nothing more than create disrespect.  If they were truly on top of what you infer is widespread cheating then they should sort their shit out with the testing pre and post race on course.  That will be a better deterrent than doing it in a way that anyone with any intelligence and creativity will work out a way around. Geez doesn't take much money now days to invest in cameras and motion detectors or even more simply have someone pruning the hedge!

From a confidence in the testing regime respective it has only proven what many suspect and that is it is useless at finding cheats!

I didn't say cheating is widespread.  You refer to the current testing regime not being effective. I agree,which is why i believe covert surveillance is a tool that should be used by the RIU more,in circumstances where it is the most effective way of gaining evidence of wrongdoing. The Mcgrath case is an example of that method being successful. Any unbiased person should see that.

[hunterthepunter]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

 Any unbiased person should see that.

so why are you Riu so biased then ??how are you getting on with your two dope smoking stable hands galah ?? about time they had clean out at Riu and got rid of all the dead wood starting with the prime lamb should gone to the freezing works years ago

[Noodlum]

2 hours ago, the galah said:

I didn't say cheating is widespread.  You refer to the current testing regime not being effective. I agree,which is why i believe covert surveillance is a tool that should be used by the RIU more,in circumstances where it is the most effective way of gaining evidence of wrongdoing. The Mcgrath case is an example of that method being successful. Any unbiased person should see that.

We both agree that the RIU are there to find the cheats.  Where differ is the method.

I think the "covert method" of hiding in bushes to find "an attempt" at cheating is Keystone Coppish. In McGrath's case it is driven by a failure of a Detective using industry funds to feed his ego.  What's more someone who has NO idea about racing.

What was done IS NOT the most effective way of finding evidence if wrong doing occurred.  The fact is in this case THEY DIDN'T FIND ANY EVIDENCE OF WRONG DOING.

FFS the best they had was "ATTEMPTED administration of a prohibited substance".

Calculate the cost of that raid?  Then transfer that money to the pot that does the real stuff of sampling and testing.  What could you achieve then?

I'm an ex harness trainer and I find this all a joke.

 

[the galah]

1 hour ago, hunterthepunter said:

so why are you Riu so biased then ??how are you getting on with your two dope smoking stable hands galah ?? about time they had clean out at Riu and got rid of all the dead wood starting with the prime lamb should gone to the freezing works years ago

Not RIU biased. I have been critical of the RIU for a long time for the lip service they paid to those who said they didn't do enough to detect the use of performance enhancers. Even on multiple occasions i had posted asking why they didn't use surveillance to gather evidence of wrongdoing,as they do in australia. I'm consistent,even if i do annoy some. The dope smoking comment? Beats me what i would have to do with that. .Your loyal to mcgrath,loyalty is a good quality,i'll give you that.

 

49 minutes ago, Noodlum said:

We both agree that the RIU are there to find the cheats.  Where differ is the method.

I think the "covert method" of hiding in bushes to find "an attempt" at cheating is Keystone Coppish. In McGrath's case it is driven by a failure of a Detective using industry funds to feed his ego.  What's more someone who has NO idea about racing.

What was done IS NOT the most effective way of finding evidence if wrong doing occurred.  The fact is in this case THEY DIDN'T FIND ANY EVIDENCE OF WRONG DOING.

FFS the best they had was "ATTEMPTED administration of a prohibited substance".

Calculate the cost of that raid?  Then transfer that money to the pot that does the real stuff of sampling and testing.  What could you achieve then?

I'm an ex harness trainer and I find this all a joke.

 

8 years for" no evidence of any wrong doing".  I think your take lacks a bit of perspective.

If you look at what Jeff gural,meadowlands owner,is saying about the big scandel in america regarding the use of performance enhancers.He's saying testing is not the most effective way to gather evidence of illegal activity.He says it must be done in conjunction with Surveillance,wire taps,using private investigators,working with federal authorities etc. Thats the way of the future if you want o catch those that cheat. He should know as he has been a crusader on this topic for years.Thats my final comment on this topic.

[hunterthepunter]

the dope smoking was on horse transport to the jewels tv one news Riu were dealing with it so were are results of this??? you go on about performance enhancers  and Riu go on about nz testing is world class  and McGrath stable has never had high tco2 readings so you have a ego as bad as the  grim stoner

[Noodlum]

27 minutes ago, the galah said:

8 years for" no evidence of any wrong doing".  I think your take lacks a bit of perspective.

 

Sorry my mistake it was 15 years ago for a doping offence.

[Noodlum]

28 minutes ago, the galah said:

If you look at what Jeff gural,meadowlands owner,is saying about the big scandel in america regarding the use of performance enhancers.He's saying testing is not the most effective way to gather evidence of illegal activity.He says it must be done in conjunction with Surveillance,wire taps,using private investigators,working with federal authorities etc. Thats the way of the future if you want o catch those that cheat. He should know as he has been a crusader on this topic for years.Thats my final comment on this topic.

Ummmm for TCO2?  Really?

[Newmarket]

As i have asked previously , the derby winner, Sheriff!! That was huge that night, too good to be true, very average when racing after. Makes you wonder

[Noodlum]

35 minutes ago, Newmarket said:

As i have asked previously , the derby winner, Sheriff!! That was huge that night, too good to be true, very average when racing after. Makes you wonder

Obviously you backed something else.

[hunterthepunter]

52 minutes ago, Newmarket said:

As i have asked previously , the derby winner, Sheriff!! That was huge that night, too good to be true, very average when racing after. Makes you wonder

2 in jewels after the derby plus the horse is unsound