Riccarton All Weather Track - Q & A Forum 16 September 2020 - PLEASE READ.

[curious]

15 minutes ago, Pitman said:

I don't think they have the final costings yet that is why the project is not yet confirmed. So bit hard without all analysis and costings

Have you ever bothered asking Tim Mills direct or are you intent on stirring which you have constantly done for weeks

If the costings haven't been done, why would Tim announce at the meeting that they were about 50k a year and you say the same thing here? Not much point me asking Tim for them if he doesn't have them.

[curious]

13 minutes ago, Pitman said:

Hey  RING TIM MILLS

and ask him

OK. No need to shout. I'll ring Tim since you who attended the meeting don't seem to have any answers.

Edited September 17, 2020 by curious

[Freda]

52 minutes ago, Pitman said:

Come on, stop stirring. every local license holder and others were invited by email to attend, listen and have their say, they chose not to. A staged meeting FFS how else would you do it.

I don't think they have the final costings yet that is why the project is not yet confirmed. So bit hard without all analysis and costings

Have you ever bothered asking Tim Mills direct or are you intent on stirring which you have constantly done for weeks

F you even thought you could train a winner after lock down before me, have you had a runner?

Also Freda's partner Martin Dunne attended,(my apologies Martin)  ask Freda about the meeting I'm sure she knows everything

Don't think I've ever said, or thought,  that I ' know everything '.

I do have opinions,  which is not the same thing at all.

Marty knows far more about AWT'S than I do, so a much better option that he went instead of me. 

Try to debate the topic and not make things personal. 

And for the record,  there were quite a few trainers who never received an email. 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Freda

[nomates]

54 minutes ago, Pitman said:

I don't think they have the final costings yet that is why the project is not yet confirmed. So bit hard without all analysis and costings

 

Why on earth would they have a meeting without a full analysis of the preferred track option along with a full costing breakdown and on going maintenance costs . What was there to discuss , perhaps you could enlighten us stirrers . 

You are fairly obviously on board with the concept , you have made that clear , so i assume you don't give a shit about the figures or costs , initially or ongoing . As long as it works for you .

1 hour ago, Pitman said:

why would you survey all trainers

Of course why would you , it's only the big boys opinions that matter .

[Huey]

6 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

I think it is sad that New Zealand racing has got to this level.  It certainly isn't what got me passionate about the sport.

We hear many reasons for why we need AWT's - lost race days, poor training surfaces, and so on.  These reasons are largely BS.  Take for instance the "lost race days" reason.  There isn't a racing jurisdiction in the World that doesn't lose racedays.  Storms in Hong Kong, excessive heat in Sydney or Melbourne, surface flooding anywhere!  That is the risk of a sport held outdoors.

That aside the reality in New Zealand is that many of the cancelled meetings in New Zealand (there aren't many!) have been due to mismanagement rather than climate.  By that I mean poor turf culture, soil management and irrigation policies.

The fact is these issues have got worse NOT because we have TOO many racecourses but because we have reduced the number that we have available.  Effectively pushing the same number of races onto fewer surfaces.

In my opinion a horse was designed (evolved) to gallop on grass (turf) NOT sand or polyfiller.  Aesthetically racing on turf  looks better - it looks natural. The Punter likes it, the spectator likes it.

New Zealands has batted above its weight in Thoroughbred racing for a long time.  Nightmarch, Pharlap, Kindergarten, the Eight Carat clan, Bonecrusher and on and on.  In my opinion we achieved that through good grass and good breeding and we raced on good turf.

Why further diminish our key advantages by racing and training our horses on Polyfiller?  Doing that in the numbers that are proposed will only negate the advantages we have.  It will diminish the NZ breed.

The fact is the reason why NZ Racing is in the shyte is because of the revenue arm - the monopolistic NZ TAB.  That has and is holding us back.  Three AWT's isnt going to change any of that.

Plenty enough tracks available , just poor leadership and misinformation(i.e. they cost the industry a fortune to operate, complete and utter lies, if I had a $ for every time some misinformed fool told me that I'd be buying Savabeels at the sales) industry wide that has reduced the number of tracks available for use, one only has to look at the pathetic calendar that has been put in place , needs a total revamp and many a fresh set of eyes to look over it.

We have an organisation like NZTR who are doing all they can to eliminate tracks, for what? For the sake of it, to make it look like they are doing something. I've never heard a single valid reason for this , has anyone else?

The average racegoer in NZ loves what they had available summer race days on grass surface with a fun family atmosphere, so what do we want to do in NZ replace it with endless boring pointless race days by the looks of it on AWTs. These days are the industry shop window. They'll tell you they will be keep the odd days , but the AWTs will kill them all off , all the enthusiasm and hours of unpaid input from volunteers it'll all go by the wayside.

I believe these tracks are only being put in so it looks like we are trying to keep up with the rest of the world. Meanwhile the rest of the world moves on.

[Huey]

1 hour ago, Pitman said:

why would you survey all trainers. There are plenty in Canterbury who have licenses that hardly ever race a horse let alone have any successs. yet they have plenty to say about various subjects they have never experienced. The AWT being one of them. Geez they can't even go to a meeting arranged to discuss said track, if they had gone they would be much wiser and informed. I believe Tim Mills sent out close to 120 emails inviting people to attend, shows how few are interested in the future of local racing

Amanda Pascoe, Anna furlong, Kevin Hughes, Danny Frye, Brian Court, Ross Beckett, Lance Robinson, Matthew Pitman and I, along with a couple of owner/trainers were license holders that attended. Kavish Chowdhoory being the only jockey

Probably shows how disillusioned they are with racing more like it. 

Good on you for making the effort to go, but why apart from training do you think these AWTs are good for racing in NZ?

[Pitman]

12 minutes ago, nomates said:

.

Of course why would you , it's only the big boys opinions that matter .

Emails went to 120 industry participants, they were invited to listen watch and express their opinion, many chose not to

[Pitman]

5 minutes ago, Huey said:

Probably shows how disillusioned they are with racing more like it. 

Good on you for making the effort to go, but why apart from training do you think these AWTs are good for racing in NZ?

Apart from training At Riccarton, when and if (it has not been confirmed as yet) the AWT is put in the intention from NZTR is to have 12 mid week industry days spread over the months of May to September. No Saturday race days no feature days. Personally I hate winter racing in South Island because of the traveling required, often cold and wet conditions and inconsistent track conditions. I am very much in favour of AWT being put at Riccarton for many reasons including the above

[nomates]

8 minutes ago, Pitman said:

Apart from training At Riccarton, when and if (it has not been confirmed as yet) the AWT is put in the intention from NZTR is to have 12 mid week industry days spread over the months of May to September. No Saturday race days no feature days. Personally I hate winter racing in South Island because of the traveling required, often cold and wet conditions and inconsistent track conditions. I am very much in favour of AWT being put at Riccarton for many reasons including the above

Do you honestly believe the proposed cost of circa 16mil for 12 industry days is a prudent use of 16mil ?. Do you believe those 12 days being run on an A/W instead of another track is going to bring such an up turn in revenue as to make them a sound financial investment for the racing industry ?. In the short term and the long term future .

When the added cost of daily maintenance and 3/5 yearly upgrades is added to the equation i suggest if this was a decision you had to make out of your own pocket you would shelve it . It makes no financial sense , and from what you yourself have stated they don't even have any final figures for the installation and on going maintenance costs .

As an aside from having those figures the most important figures they should have available for analysis is those showing how they expect revenues to increase because of the instillation of the A/W tracks , to show that they are the way forward for the racing industry . But alas no , it appears it's all being done by the seat of their pants .

I know you think we are just a bunch of stirrers but what i see are a group of passionate knowledgeable racing people asking some very prudent questions and as of the present moment being unable to get real answers . 

I personally don't want to see these tracks become a white elephant , and there is plenty of evidence that this is exactly what they could become , that becomes the final nail in the coffin for racing in NZ .

Can i ask you one final question , what would you rather see at Riccarton , the A/W or the main track become a strathayr surface . 

[mikeynz]

33 minutes ago, Pitman said:

Apart from training At Riccarton, when and if (it has not been confirmed as yet) the AWT is put in the intention from NZTR is to have 12 mid week industry days spread over the months of May to September. No Saturday race days no feature days. Personally I hate winter racing in South Island because of the traveling required, often cold and wet conditions and inconsistent track conditions. I am very much in favour of AWT being put at Riccarton for many reasons including the above

I've said before I dont really care if they have a AWT,and if the intention is to have 12 midweek industry days then that's it,no reason then why they dont have racing as usual at other venues as it has always been.

[curious]

52 minutes ago, Pitman said:

Emails went to 120 industry participants, they were invited to listen watch and express their opinion, many chose not to

I'd be interested to know how the 120 invitees were selected? Surely the invites should have gone to all owners, trainers and jockeys participating in Canterbury racing and the meeting should have been made accessible to those who are at a distance from Riccarton?

Edited September 17, 2020 by curious

[curious]

3 minutes ago, curious said:

I'd be interested to know how the 120 invitees were selected? Surely the invites should have gone to all owners, trainers and jockeys participating in Canterbury racing and the meeting should have been made accessible to those who are at a distance from Riccarton?

I'd probably add CJC members to that list.

[Pitman]

27 minutes ago, curious said:

I'd probably add CJC members to that list.

Ring Tim and ask him the questions I am sure he will know the answers I certainly don’t

[Pitman]

41 minutes ago, mikeynz said:

I've said before I dont really care if they have a AWT,and if the intention is to have 12 midweek industry days then that's it,no reason then why they dont have racing as usual at other venues as it has always been.

It’s not for one year nor is it just for 5 months it’s being built, if confirmed, for racing training and trials I understand part of the contract includes a 15 year warranty I THINK THAT IS  CORRECT 

[Freda]

10 hours ago, nomates said:

Do you honestly believe the proposed cost of circa 16mil for 12 industry days is a prudent use of 16mil ?. Do you believe those 12 days being run on an A/W instead of another track is going to bring such an up turn in revenue as to make them a sound financial investment for the racing industry ?. In the short term and the long term future .

When the added cost of daily maintenance and 3/5 yearly upgrades is added to the equation i suggest if this was a decision you had to make out of your own pocket you would shelve it . It makes no financial sense , and from what you yourself have stated they don't even have any final figures for the installation and on going maintenance costs .

As an aside from having those figures the most important figures they should have available for analysis is those showing how they expect revenues to increase because of the instillation of the A/W tracks , to show that they are the way forward for the racing industry . But alas no , it appears it's all being done by the seat of their pants .

I know you think we are just a bunch of stirrers but what i see are a group of passionate knowledgeable racing people asking some very prudent questions and as of the present moment being unable to get real answers . 

I personally don't want to see these tracks become a white elephant , and there is plenty of evidence that this is exactly what they could become , that becomes the final nail in the coffin for racing in NZ .

Can i ask you one final question , what would you rather see at Riccarton , the A/W or the main track become a strathayr surface . 

Great post. 

But, although not specifically addressed to me,  the Strathayr/AWT comparison is not entirely 'apples with apples'  as, in this case. a Strathayr would be replacing the maligned course proper, and only be used as a racing surface.  The AWT is intended for training as well, which is why many trainers are not opposed to it in a working sense.

Finances don't occur to, or bother, most.

[Chief Stipe]

9 minutes ago, Freda said:

The AWT is intended for training as well, which is why many trainers are not opposed to it in a working sense.

Then build it as a training track not a 16m wide race track!  

Why is the training surface suddenly an issue now?

[Chief Stipe]

10 hours ago, Pitman said:

I understand part of the contract includes a 15 year warranty

Warranty for what?  I doubt it covers fair wear and tear.  The polyfill wears out!  It has to be topped up regularly and eventually replaced.  God knows where you dump it after its worn out as it's full of artificial fibre, rubber and petroleum waxes!

Polytrack is made out of silica sand and fibers made of recycled carpet, spandex and rubber. The entire mixture is then covered with wax. 

[Freda]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Warranty for what?  I doubt it covers fair wear and tear.  The polyfill wears out!  It has to be topped up regularly and eventually replaced.  God knows where you dump it after its worn out as it's full of artificial fibre, rubber and petroleum waxes!

Polytrack is made out of silica sand and fibers made of recycled carpet, spandex and rubber. The entire mixture is then covered with wax. 

That is a particular concern of mine.

[nomates]

1 hour ago, Freda said:

Great post. 

But, although not specifically addressed to me,  the Strathayr/AWT comparison is not entirely 'apples with apples'  as, in this case. a Strathayr would be replacing the maligned course proper, and only be used as a racing surface.  The AWT is intended for training as well, which is why many trainers are not opposed to it in a working sense.

Finances don't occur to, or bother, most.

And this is where the overwhelming self interest comes in , if they upgraded the main course then the obvious thing to do is upgrade the training tracks . The lack of detail and costings along with future revenue projections are my biggest concern , if this becomes a cockup there could be no coming back .

Mr Pitman has started a thread this morning asking Chief what his skin in the game is , long list of parts . What Mr Pitman and others like him don't get and don't want to get is that asking prudent questions around feasibility studies , financial costings and revenue projections doesn't require anything other than intelligence . Skin in the game , large or small is irrelevant , but in his world the more skin , the more right to a say and not have to answer questions .

I asked him some serious questions last night but he chooses not to answer the big ones , just picks out the bits that suit his agenda .

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, nomates said:

Skin in the game , large or small is irrelevant , but in his world the more skin , the more right to a say and not have to answer questions .

Look where that has got us!  Isn't that the sort of arrogance displayed by NZTR/NZRB management that got us where we are now?  RITA et al was supposed to change that but what has happened?  Any form of transparency has gone!  FFS we don't even get turnover figures now!  Why would anyone wanting to invest in the industry do so if there is no information about its sustainability?

I should put a Topic up that lists the backtracks we have seen so far this new post-Covid season!  With all the money spent and the knowledge and experience the powers that be supposedly have they should have got it right the FIRST time!  In saying that well done for back tracking but I guess when reality hits you don't really have much choice!

[nomates]

3 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Look where that has got us!  Isn't that the sort of arrogance displayed by NZTR/NZRB management that got us where we are now?  RITA et al was supposed to change that but what has happened?  Any form of transparency has gone!  FFS we don't even get turnover figures now!  Why would anyone wanting to invest in the industry do so if there is no information about its sustainability?

I should put a Topic up that lists the backtracks we have seen so far this new post-Covid season!  With all the money spent and the knowledge and experience the powers that be supposedly have they should have got it right the FIRST time!  In saying that well done for back tracking but I guess when reality hits you don't really have much choice!

At every track i've been associated with the biggest trainer/s has called the shots on what happens to the tracks , their opinion was expressed very clearly , they trained the most horses , they were the most successful so they got the most say . Clubs committees were shit scared of them , scared they would move . So they got away with murder , i questioned plenty , wrote letters , got nowhere . I didn't have enough skin in the game . 

Well i can tell you that the majority of those people who had the big skin in the game are as much to blame for the demise of NZ racing as the administrators .

They kept scoffing at the trough even as the lights were dimming , getting as much as they could before they went out for good . From what i've seen not much has changed , there are still people looking at their own patch only .

[curious]

13 hours ago, Pitman said:

It’s not for one year nor is it just for 5 months it’s being built, if confirmed, for racing training and trials I understand part of the contract includes a 15 year warranty I THINK THAT IS  CORRECT 

What does the 15 year warranty cover? Just the base? Surely not the surface materials?

[curious]

11 minutes ago, nomates said:

At every track i've been associated with the biggest trainer/s has called the shots on what happens to the tracks , their opinion was expressed very clearly , they trained the most horses , they were the most successful so they got the most say . Clubs committees were shit scared of them , scared they would move . So they got away with murder , i questioned plenty , wrote letters , got nowhere . I didn't have enough skin in the game . 

Well i can tell you that the majority of those people who had the big skin in the game are as much to blame for the demise of NZ racing as the administrators .

They kept scoffing at the trough even as the lights were dimming , getting as much as they could before they went out for good . From what i've seen not much has changed , there are still people looking at their own patch only .

And that is probably why many of us who could or would have more skin in the game, don't.

[Pitman]

21 minutes ago, nomates said:

At every track i've been associated with the biggest trainer/s has called the shots on what happens to the tracks , their opinion was expressed very clearly , they trained the most horses , they were the most successful so they got the most say . Clubs committees were shit scared of them , scared they would move . So they got away with murder , i questioned plenty , wrote letters , got nowhere . I didn't have enough skin in the game . 

Well i can tell you that the majority of those people who had the big skin in the game are as much to blame for the demise of NZ racing as the administrators .

They kept scoffing at the trough even as the lights were dimming , getting as much as they could before they went out for good . From what i've seen not much has changed , there are still people looking at their own patch only .

I agree and I wish that happened here We are well down the pecking order locally 
Our main training base is our own property not Riccarton

I certainly am not a mate of Tim Mills nor have I ever trained for him that’s his prerogative

[Joe Bloggs]

3 hours ago, nomates said:

And this is where the overwhelming self interest comes in , if they upgraded the main course then the obvious thing to do is upgrade the training tracks . The lack of detail and costings along with future revenue projections are my biggest concern , if this becomes a cockup there could be no coming back .

Mr Pitman has started a thread this morning asking Chief what his skin in the game is , long list of parts . What Mr Pitman and others like him don't get and don't want to get is that asking prudent questions around feasibility studies , financial costings and revenue projections doesn't require anything other than intelligence . Skin in the game , large or small is irrelevant , but in his world the more skin , the more right to a say and not have to answer questions .

I asked him some serious questions last night but he chooses not to answer the big ones , just picks out the bits that suit his agenda .

I think I asked same, or stated same a while back, the consensus over here is a Strathayr beats an AWT by a country mile, so, seeing as how the Toowoomba Turf Club pulled their AWT out as trainers just wouldn't go, put in a Strath and haven't looked back, putting aside the cheating allegations, so why would your know alls, inc the outspoken trainer that's never trained on one beg to differ with people that have?

If you've got the money [other peoples, be it what it may] put in a strathayr, throw the Riccarton goat track to the shithouse, and the money you save put it into doing a state of the art velvet or Kiwi style plough.....how tough is that? Just tell Mills and co you don't want to see CJC go broke, and they will, and to let Saundry know he's needed back here as fire season is due and we are short handed in the volunteer fire service, anything tell him anything just get him out of any decision making regarding your futures.