Riccarton All Weather Track - Q & A Forum 16 September 2020 - PLEASE READ.

[nomates]

1 hour ago, Freda said:

..and RV has decided that two are sufficient in their state, given maintenance costs, etc.  And we think we can manage three?

Yea 2 for their massive horse population , very poor vision IMO .

Says it all when our administration thinks we need 3 .

[nomates]

10 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said:

You're usually spot on, but can I just add, for revenue to increase which of course should drive stake rises, the punter has to have confidence in the product and from where I  sit my major concern is integrity.

The lack of pre race testing is abominable and as it's no secret there is bugger all money, who in their right mind invests/wagers on a gaming product where you have no idea if the horse you have backed is clean? How do we know they are processing the post race swabs of winners? I don't trust them, do you?.......when you're broke you'll do anything to survive, think about it.

The TCO2 testing at the gallops there is practically non-existent, so if someone is inclined to cheat and milkshake or mask, then it's open slather isn't it?

I know several punting Whales that used to play the NZ racing market regularly, now it's a no go zone, the investments on NZ racing on the TAB in Oz have been woeful, 1600 bucks in the win pool on R1 at Otaki today, the place pool was a joke.......it's a sign, they will only be able to pay stakes by borrowing again, and from who and what goes up as collateral? maybe a racecourse or two.

In any other industry people would be behind bars.......it's a sick joke and I'm pissed...as in angry, nothing will change and that's a culture problem....sorry to say.

I get your point but in my experience i don't believe the use of drugs is endemic in NZ gallops . 

Obviously what i am suggesting above would mean all the other under performing sectors of NZ racing would have to get arses dragged up to a to a higher performing level .

Whether or not my suggestion is a goer or would ever come to fruition is not my point , what we need is to start formulating a plan/plans to take us into the next 10-50 years . Things will never start to improve until we start laying out something to guide us forward and provide direction and focus . Planning does not seem to be part of our leaderships vocabulary , they are a very reactionary team .

Continuing to follow the same old well worn path is only achieving an ever decreasing pie to slice up . I thought Covid gave us the opportunity to start making some significant changes to the way we do things , but alas no , we put out pretty much the same calendar with the same high end stakes , when as far as we can work out we are not even sure we can afford it . Nothing appears to be a lot different , so why would the result .

I live in hope , but that is dwindling , fast .

 

[Freda]

1 hour ago, Newmarket said:

What worries me in this thread, it is mainly trainers, owners or followers of racing commenting. 
 

You do know the success of racing is gamblers, look at sky city auck, still made profit in lockdown with online gambling? 
 

I hear zero, nothing, zilch how nz is going to get punters betting more with the tab. They are more worried about blocking nz punters betting elsewhere, which we know will never happen. Why, we all know that more turnover with the nz tab comes from outside nz, than within, so they will be worse off, that is the reason it has not been done yet. 
 

They have done everything they can to drive punters away, and they continue to do it. 

Its a sad time, but the future looks bleak

Quite - but the prevailing thought is that consistent tracks   [  i.e. synthetic ]   will encourage more betting.

Can't see it personally but that's their rationale.

[Joe Bloggs]

3 hours ago, Newmarket said:

What worries me in this thread, it is mainly trainers, owners or followers of racing commenting. 
 

You do know the success of racing is gamblers, look at sky city auck, still made profit in lockdown with online gambling? 
 

I hear zero, nothing, zilch how nz is going to get punters betting more with the tab. They are more worried about blocking nz punters betting elsewhere, which we know will never happen. Why, we all know that more turnover with the nz tab comes from outside nz, than within, so they will be worse off, that is the reason it has not been done yet. 
 

They have done everything they can to drive punters away, and they continue to do it. 

Its a sad time, but the future looks bleak

I used to think the AWT would be a godsend, how wrong I was, and the punter here in Oz agrees. The turnover is terrible compared to a grass track comparable,  certain stables do well on them, example, Hayes and Dabernig, they have a similar surface to Pakenham at home, so they have a head start, and know which of these love and those that don't.

So it will suit attrition trainers  and the big stringers, which really go hand in hand......cynical bastard aren't I?....but having spent a lot of time up in Newmarket UK and watching the horses work on the waxed sand all weather Al Bahathri, some are comfortable, some are not.

It's a total waste of industry money, you ask the best, most learned trainers here and they'll say, Strathayr........by a furlong. But what would they know, Petone knows everything they are figjams, that's why the place is rooted.

[Ludwig]

On 9/3/2020 at 1:01 PM, Reefton said:

I think you are being a bit tough on Hoki there Michael

(1) they did NOT accumulate that money through racing activities - it came from the sale of land up the hill behind the racecourse.  Land that would have originally been brought with NO help or support from NZTR, the NZ Racing Authority or any other racing hierachy organisation(unlike Riccarton, Greymouth, Wingatui, Invercargill, Trentham, Awapuni, Hawkes Bay, Ellerslie, Te Rapa et al getting massive stands and facilities built and tracks renovated then not looking after them) the Westland Racing Club could NOT get its snout into the Amenities fund trough due to the old District Committee structure of racing.

(2) my understanding is that the Westland District Council refused to accept the property unless the Club gave them a substantial chunk of cash as well so their hands were tied - basically give the citizens of their District(who built them up after all is said and done) the vast majority of their assets or give it to the NZ Racing Industry who had just proceeded to drive the boot fair into their(the WRC) guts by removing their right to race on their course.

It might not have been you personally who took that right to race away Michael but NZTR did it on your behalf(I know it wasn't your idea or that you were in favour so I am not saying that).  How much wiser would it have been to take the stance that their time was extremely limited due to the state of their facility then after their inevitable demise the industry would have got the lot.

Saundry and Co are responsible for the loss of that money to the industry  NOT the Westland Racing Club Committee.  And I told him so too.  

DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB!

 

 

Wow, calling the good folk of Hokitika "gutless".....pretty, staunch hardy Coasters I've always found.

[Ludwig]

5 hours ago, Freda said:

Quite - but the prevailing thought is that consistent tracks   [  i.e. synthetic ]   will encourage more betting.

Can't see it personally but that's their rationale.

And in places like Oamaru, maintaining any interest in racing is becoming impossible. Fewer meetings, no radio coverage, no TV coverage for the poor ones like me, no newspaper coverage etc. But we're led to believe by vested interests that an AWT track at Riccarton will solve everything. There's more chance of me turning into Mae West.

[Huey]

23 hours ago, nomates said:

I agree , whilst we're at it , it is time Trentham went the same way and no reason Ellerslie can't join them . 

We need to look to the future , and i mean 10/20 years from now . The above tracks are all tracks i love to bet at , and grew up at Trentham , love the place , but it's best days are gone , we have to plan for the future . 

Bar the odd big day none of these tracks attract regular big crowds , the days when they did have gone , they were in the city because everyone went to the races , but these days city slickers have deserted racing , far too many other things to do now .

So if we are planning for the future then we need tracks that serve purpose , that have top quality surfaces that handle all weather conditions with top class facilities that make people want to go more , that are located where the horse populations are close at hand and that give easy access to both transport and punters .

Currently nearly all of our main tracks are hemmed into their cities , and no longer relevant to their populations , yet 2 of the A/W's are being shoehorned into 2 of these tracks . Is this really looking to the future ?

Because of their locations they would finance , relevant and made for purpose tracks for all 3 locations .

And in doing so future proof racing .

At present all we are doing is shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic with no real sense of a plan , more of a hit and hope . 

It's time for some real leadership aligned with a vision for the future that gives people a sense of purpose to remain a part of the industry along with giving interested people some confidence that getting involved in racing that can be done positively .

There will people who will be staunchly against the above and that's fine , but don't just poo poo it , give solutions . Change and major change has to happen , that means plans being put in place , plans made with consultation of industry participants , plans that are going to help racing get back on a stable footing and give a sense that things are going to improve .

I like you absolutely love Trentham favourite track in the country, but I agree an actual study based on fact and no bias is required to keep the industry going, some hard truths would need to be swallowed but its unlikely to happen with the current leadership. The current leadership are " pig and a poke" types  and that unfortunately isn't something the industry can afford to continue with.

[Freda]

The absolute bottom line in all this, is that to increase the fortunes of racing and its stakeholders, punting revenue [ punters' losses, to pinch a phrase from one more learned than moi ]  must increase.

Some punters won't touch allweather racing, others do...but statistically I don't think there is evidence that there is less betting overall, given similar status meetings, as a result of having these tracks.  But neither is there proof that there is any more.   That is the modus operandus of our management - same as the 'these tracks are costing us money '  wild statements and running with the result, without taking time to do proper analysis to correctly determine process.

So, if punters' losses do not increase as a result, a complete and utter waste of time and money to install, as well as destroying the fabric of provincial racing as we know it.

 

[Freda]

20 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said:

I used to think the AWT would be a godsend, how wrong I was, and the punter here in Oz agrees. The turnover is terrible compared to a grass track comparable,  certain stables do well on them, example, Hayes and Dabernig, they have a similar surface to Pakenham at home, so they have a head start, and know which of these love and those that don't.

So it will suit attrition trainers  and the big stringers, which really go hand in hand......cynical bastard aren't I?....but having spent a lot of time up in Newmarket UK and watching the horses work on the waxed sand all weather Al Bahathri, some are comfortable, some are not.

It's a total waste of industry money, you ask the best, most learned trainers here and they'll say, Strathayr........by a furlong. But what would they know, Petone knows everything they are figjams, that's why the place is rooted.

As has been pointed out before, other jurisdictions [ UK,Aus ] have a larger pools of horses, some have shown that they cope with the allweather well, others don't.  But those that do race on them regularly, will have their own following betting-wise, because there are enough of them to make a 'third' pool of horses - as opposed to here, where, generally, we are looking at firm-trackers or mudders, on turf, with a few who can dovetail between both options.  There simply won't be enough horses to supply a consistent allweather 'product'  going on current numbers....but, of course if permits are taken from provincial meetings to make it all work, there will be a pool of unfortunates who can't perform but have no other choice.  IMO.

As an aside - Sheikh Obeid will not allow any of his horses to race on an allweather.

Strathayr, great, and overall the best option, but they are not internationally installed as training grounds, only racetracks.

[Pitman]

For what its worth

I spent an afternoon on the last day at Royal Ascot in the company of John Gosden, well known as one of the very best trainers, he was absolutely in favour of the use of AWT and races many of his best horses on them.

I would prefer his knowledge over all the doomsayers who have never even seen one but seem to be experts.

[Chief Stipe]

18 minutes ago, Freda said:

Strathayr, great, and overall the best option, but they are not internationally installed as training grounds, only racetracks.

Not entirely correct - there are racecourses with Strathayr training tracks.

Riccarton has issues with its turf course proper.  The $16m being "invested" will not address those issues.

Wouldn't a better idea have been to install a much smaller synthetic training track like they did at Flemington and fix the course proper?

 

[Chief Stipe]

43 minutes ago, Pitman said:

I would prefer his knowledge over all the doomsayers who have never even seen one but seem to be experts.

One "expert" and only your interpretation of what he said.  Where does Godsen train and on what type of surface?  I'll tell you where.  He trains at Newmarket!  2,500 acres of training facilities.  50 miles of turf gallops surfaces, 14 miles of artificial tracks. The longest Polytrack is 11 furlongs about four horses wide and a straight line!!! Imagine what you could have if you sold Riccarton and built somewhere new - requires vision and balls though.

 

I wouldn't call those that have doubts about the AWT's "doomsayers"  but more practical people who are tired of seeing the industry leaders bullshit and wasting of money.  Rather than addressing the real issues and promoting a workable vision.

If the AWT is such a godsend (that's Godsen with a D) why didn't the CJC promote, build and fund one years ago?

[Huey]

36 minutes ago, Pitman said:

For what its worth

I spent an afternoon on the last day at Royal Ascot in the company of John Gosden, well known as one of the very best trainers, he was absolutely in favour of the use of AWT and races many of his best horses on them.

I would prefer his knowledge over all the doomsayers who have never even seen one but seem to be experts.

And then you can speak to another trainer who hates them, getting consensus amongst trainers is like trying to get agreement between political parties.  The point for me here is the very good point made by Freda, how will these tracks increase betting revenue?  

A few mishaps on these tracks early on and trainers possibly even you will avoid them like the plague. 

[Chief Stipe]

Godsen doesn't seem to put HIS money where his mouth is.  His stats from the last five years shows he prefers turf.....

In the next 14 days he has 20 horses nominated - 3 of those on AWT - the other 17 on turf!

 

 

[nomates]

51 minutes ago, Pitman said:

For what its worth

I spent an afternoon on the last day at Royal Ascot in the company of John Gosden, well known as one of the very best trainers, he was absolutely in favour of the use of AWT and races many of his best horses on them.

I would prefer his knowledge over all the doomsayers who have never even seen one but seem to be experts.

If one afternoon spent in the company of a top trainer who advocates for them is enough for you to be on board , fine , but myself , one of the naysayers , would rather see a much more in depth feasibility study done . 

My biggest issue around them , aside from the fact that other jurisdictions are pulling them up , is that they are not going to solve the underlying issue we have with the existing tracks , why don't we just fix those first . It's a much simpler solution ,but then it wont give trainers the excellent winter training and trialing tracks that so far has been the first thing trainers at all tracks have mentioned first when talking about them . OH yea and the for the racing as well . No self interest there .

[Chief Stipe]

Oh and Pitty if the AWT is so good why not rip out the turf track and replace it with a Polytrack?  Like they did at Newmarket.  At least the "crowds" won't be so far away from the action.

[Chief Stipe]

2 minutes ago, nomates said:

but then it wont give trainers the excellent winter training and trialing tracks that so far has been the first thing trainers at all tracks have mentioned first when talking about them

Then spend less on building tracks to race on and build smaller training AWT training tracks and fix the turf tracks.

After all this expenditure we will still have stuffed surfaces at Ellerslie, Te Rapa and Riccarton!

[nomates]

4 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Then spend less on building tracks to race on and build smaller training AWT training tracks and fix the turf tracks.

After all this expenditure we will still have stuffed surfaces at Ellerslie, Te Rapa and Riccarton!

Matamata and New Plymouth both put in such training tracks at their own cost i think . But neither have solved their grass tracks being bogs when wet .

[Pitman]

6 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Oh and Pitty if the AWT is so good why not rip out the turf track and replace it with a Polytrack?  Like they did at Newcastle.  At least the "crowds" won't be so far away from the action.

C’mon “the crowds won’t be so far away“  down the back straight the track will be closer!
Grass track racing will never be replaced and it shouldn’t be that’s just a stupid statement and you know it is

The idea of an AWT is to provide a consistent winter surface for racing, trials and training. This will be done at Riccarton the SI track with the most horse numbers that provides runners for all provincial racing

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, Pitman said:

Grass track racing will never be replaced and it shouldn’t be that’s just a stupid statement and you know it is

They replaced it at Newmarket.  When are you guys going to sort your turf out?

2 hours ago, Pitman said:

The idea of an AWT is to provide a consistent winter surface for racing, trials and training. This will be done at Riccarton the SI track with the most horse numbers that provides runners for all provincial racing

Geez Pitty you missed your calling you should have been a BS spinning politician.

Since when was Christchurch classified as "Provincial"?  Even Winnie and Jonesie got rapped over the knuckles for that one!  The fact is the PGF was bastardised to slip this through.

So everyone ELSE will have to travel except YOU?!

Where are all these horses going to be stabled?  The extra ones required to sustain the extra costs of the new track?  How is Pitman going to expand their own Empire so they can get a bulk discount on track fees?

As for providing "Winter Racing" - they are talking 40 race meetings on the AWT!!  Thats a bloody long winter!

[Pitman]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

One "expert" and only your interpretation of what he said.  Where does Godsen train and on what type of surface?  I'll tell you where.  He trains at Newmarket!  2,500 acres of training facilities.  50 miles of turf gallops surfaces, 14 miles of artificial tracks. The longest Polytrack is 11 furlongs about four horses wide and a straight line!!! Imagine what you could have if you sold Riccarton and built somewhere new - requires vision and balls though.

 

I wouldn't call those that have doubts about the AWT's "doomsayers"  but more practical people who are tired of seeing the industry leaders bullshit and wasting of money.  Rather than addressing the real issues and promoting a workable vision.

If the AWT is such a godsend (that's Godsen with a D) why didn't the CJC promote, build and fund one years ago?

I think the timing is right - they now get the updated version and knowledge

[Pitman]

4 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

They replaced it at Newcastle.  When are you guys going to sort your turf out?

Geez Pitty you missed your calling you should have been a BS spinning politician.

Since when was Christchurch classified as "Provincial"?  Even Winnie and Jonesie got rapped over the knuckles for that one!  The fact is the PGF was bastardised to slip this through.

So everyone ELSE will have to travel except YOU?!

Where are all these horses going to be stabled?  The extra ones required to sustain the extra costs of the new track?  How is Pitman going to expand their own Empire so they can get a bulk discount on track fees?

As for providing "Winter Racing" - they are talking 40 race meetings on the AWT!!  Thats a bloody long winter!

Who’s talking 40 meetings on the AWT you’re delusional

[Chief Stipe]

21 minutes ago, nomates said:

Matamata

Yes Matamata have their own AWT.  You'd think though on that basis Cambridge could have built their own after all they say they are "the largest training centre in Australasia"!

As for their Turf track everything gets sucked into the black hole of Te Rapa.  So hard to get the racedays and subsequent revenues to fund repairs on the turf.

Why didn't the PGF build a Strathayr at Matamata?  More "Provincial" than Cambridge.

The truth is Cambridge's turf training track was stuffed, they didn't want to spend their own money and the big boys convinced Winnie to cough up the dough.  The rich got richer!

As for New Plymouth it's a basket case due to it being on a dodgy lease.  Why spend big bucks when you are likely to get the boot?

[Chief Stipe]

8 minutes ago, Pitman said:

Who’s talking 40 meetings on the AWT you’re delusional

Well you are talking 30 so I'm out by 10. 

So only 10 meetings on the glorious Riccarton Turf track for the year?

But if I'm delusional then the person who made the public statement that I read must be an absolute loon.

Would you agree?

[Joe Bloggs]

2 hours ago, Pitman said:

For what its worth

I spent an afternoon on the last day at Royal Ascot in the company of John Gosden, well known as one of the very best trainers, he was absolutely in favour of the use of AWT and races many of his best horses on them.

I would prefer his knowledge over all the doomsayers who have never even seen one but seem to be experts.

And about half of the Newmarket trainers don't like them, but as I wrote some 5 years back, the AWT in the UK was a godsend for owners/trainers and staff that usually were laid off during the winter if the stable didn't cross train with jumpers. It also gave a lot of horses a second chance, they were headed for the knackers as they were average on the grass....some show aptitude and improvement on the AWT and it saved them and gave their owners a return........of sorts.

But a punting medium, in the UK they'll bet on anything as they have the gambling culture, NZ doesn't, so once the novelty wears off.......just saying.