Riccarton All Weather Track - Q & A Forum 16 September 2020 - PLEASE READ.

[Reefton]

25 minutes ago, mikeynz said:

What can any party ,government do for racing,? its up to racing to do it's own thing,the govt can only do so much.

Fair comment.

Yesterday I was thinking to myself how I would summarize racing's ills in a sentance

Run by a bunch of people who vastly over-rate their own ability, vastly over-rate their own importance and vastly under-achieve.

So until there is a mutiny/revolution(hopefully with some public guillotining of these useless wankers thrown in) there will be no significant change.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Reefton

[Joe Bloggs]

Riddle me this, how does Mills keep his job? I remember Riccarton from it's halcyon days, and an ace committee and GM,..you know, back in the day when there were big strings and great trainers, not great egos,,.

If Mills wants an AWT, and most of you don't, push a no confidence motion and dis the bloke, having this foisted on you will cause trouble, the money should be spent on improving the training tracks there, and why the hell a Strathayr isn't going in for a fraction of the cost is beyond me,,..patching up is a waste, look at Eagle Farm, once the proud matron in BNE now the daughter you hide from visitors,,a seagull pisses on the track and it's a disaster,,.up the road on the Sunny Coast is the best track in the country,,.

Don't you just love executives with no idea but think they do, and their glove puppets who don't like to travel, as an owner the travel costs are killers, but thats another story, one for the gouging files,..

[Reefton]

6 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Riddle me this, how does Mills keep his job? I remember Riccarton from it's halcyon days, and an ace committee and GM,..you know, back in the day when there were big strings and great trainers, not great egos,,.

If Mills wants an AWT, and most of you don't, push a no confidence motion and dis the bloke, having this foisted on you will cause trouble, the money should be spent on improving the training tracks there, and why the hell a Strathayr isn't going in for a fraction of the cost is beyond me,,..patching up is a waste, look at Eagle Farm, once the proud matron in BNE now the daughter you hide from visitors,,a seagull pisses on the track and it's a disaster,,.up the road on the Sunny Coast is the best track in the country,,.

Don't you just love executives with no idea but think they do, and their glove puppets who don't like to travel, as an owner the travel costs are killers, but thats another story, one for the gouging files,..

I'm not saying I don't want an all weather just that they need to do some serious thinking about whether this is the opportunity to do something radical and really secure the future of the Canterbury Jockey Club and South Island racing by cashing up what they have and relocating to somewhere more suitable.  There is no doubt that better tracks are required in the winter months especially and an AWT,  if done correctly, might well achieve that aim.  Equally a strathayr is obviously an option worth exploring but as it stands it appears there has been beggar all 'exploring of options' carried out just an arbitrary decision to plough onwards regardless with the AWT on the current site.

In regards Tim and his position you would need to talk to some of the CJC committee on that but he has never done me any personal harm nor I do not believe the Reefton Jockey Club.  Remembering the 'good old days' is all very well but you could apply that logic to  virtually every major and a lot of other courses in NZ - Gore for instance used to have two fairly significant strings of  horses attached to major Trainers but the loss of those stables is not the Secretary of the Gore RC's fault.  It is just a sign of the  times and what has happened to the industry - another thing to lay at the feet of those chappies in Petone methinks.

 

 

Edited September 9, 2020 by Reefton

[Chief Stipe]

stage-3-trainer-allotment-pricelist-jan-2020.pdf

[Chief Stipe]

[Chief Stipe]

[Chief Stipe]

 

[Joe Bloggs]

2 hours ago, Reefton said:

I'm not saying I don't want an all weather just that they need to do some serious thinking about whether this is the opportunity to do something radical and really secure the future of the Canterbury Jockey Club and South Island racing by cashing up what they have and relocating to somewhere more suitable.  There is no doubt that better tracks are required in the winter months especially and an AWT,  if done correctly, might well achieve that aim.  Equally a strathayr is obviously an option worth exploring but as it stands it appears there has been beggar all 'exploring of options' carried out just an arbitrary decision to plough onwards regardless with the AWT on the current site.

In regards Tim and his position you would need to talk to some of the CJC committee on that but he has never done me any personal harm nor I do not believe the Reefton Jockey Club.  Remembering the 'good old days' is all very well but you could apply that logic to  virtually every major and a lot of other courses in NZ - Gore for instance used to have two fairly significant strings of  horses attached to major Trainers but the loss of those stables is not the Secretary of the Gore RC's fault.  It is just a sign of the  times and what has happened to the industry - another thing to lay at the feet of those chappies in Petone methinks.

 

 

It really doesn't matter if it's Mills or any other GM or CEO Reefton, he just happens to be the go to man at Riccarton and he's openly declared his support for the AWT.....Petone would love that wouldn't they? When there are so many trainers there that don't want it why on earth would they not hold a moratorium and go with a consensus of people that have to train their horses and race their horses on that surface.....or does the animal come last......and the trainer can go hee....

We had a wood fibre at Flemington, it was a disaster, Bart and CS kicked up a stink, John Meagher also, shortly after it was given the boot......just because his 'other half' loves the idea......the boss man at Riccarton should listen to the people that count, not just the chosen few.......and boy I hope the trainers that don't agree with those that do....get there en masse and give it to the salarymen from the Jackson St Taj Mahal......

IMO...

[mikeynz]

On the other forum place there are lots of comments about washdyke,a lot that make sense,and the more you think about things that's where the winter racing needs to be more of,oamaru is another option,whatever they do at Riccarton these other places need to stay in the game,climate wise they are traditionally  dry,not always but more often than not.

[Reefton]

50 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

It really doesn't matter if it's Mills or any other GM or CEO Reefton, he just happens to be the go to man at Riccarton and he's openly declared his support for the AWT.....Petone would love that wouldn't they? When there are so many trainers there that don't want it why on earth would they not hold a moratorium and go with a consensus of people that have to train their horses and race their horses on that surface.....or does the animal come last......and the trainer can go hee....

We had a wood fibre at Flemington, it was a disaster, Bart and CS kicked up a stink, John Meagher also, shortly after it was given the boot......just because his 'other half' loves the idea......the boss man at Riccarton should listen to the people that count, not just the chosen few.......and boy I hope the trainers that don't agree with those that do....get there en masse and give it to the salarymen from the Jackson St Taj Mahal......

IMO...

Not sure there are too many Riccarton Trainers against it to be fair.  Some may just be a little worried about what the costs of maintenance will do to track fees(and that is I think a good reason to have a business plan so these people know what it is they are looking at in terms of fees). 

Logically he(Mills) would declare his support - it wouldn't look too good for the CEO of a joint that had just been given $10m ex the PGF to declare that he didn't like or support the idea surely?

[Freda]

10 hours ago, mikeynz said:

On the other forum place there are lots of comments about washdyke,a lot that make sense,and the more you think about things that's where the winter racing needs to be more of,oamaru is another option,whatever they do at Riccarton these other places need to stay in the game,climate wise they are traditionally  dry,not always but more often than not.

Timaru is destined for closure, Mikey, I don't know anyone who thinks that is either fair, or a good idea,  but there it is.

The only show of 'saving'  Timaru is if the allweather doesn't go ahead.

[Freda]

9 hours ago, Reefton said:

Not sure there are too many Riccarton Trainers against it to be fair.  Some may just be a little worried about what the costs of maintenance will do to track fees(and that is I think a good reason to have a business plan so these people know what it is they are looking at in terms of fees). 

Logically he(Mills) would declare his support - it wouldn't look too good for the CEO of a joint that had just been given $10m ex the PGF to declare that he didn't like or support the idea surely?

Balanced comment, as we have come to expect,  Reefton.

A couple of trainers are very 'pro ' ,  a few others haven't considered ramifications of cost, provincial racetracks, availability of other surfaces both during and after construction, etc. going forward - but think that it will be great for trackwork.

Most of the others don't want it, but for whatever reason, won't commit openly to being against it.

So, if the money  [ 10 mill ] appears, and doesn't get held up by being a political football as a result of Winston's lies and chicanery,   it will go ahead.  Where the additional funds will come from aren't clear, and there seems to be a huge disparity between the maintenance costs factored in by NZTR, and those published from other sources.

[Chief Stipe]

53 minutes ago, Freda said:

a huge disparity between the maintenance costs factored in by NZTR, and those published from other sources.

What are NZTR's maintenance figures?

[Freda]

31 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

What are NZTR's maintenance figures?

50k annually, with any top-up to be met by the club. 

That seems to me to be so far away from reality as to be mind-boggling. 

Edited September 9, 2020 by Freda

[Chief Stipe]

17 minutes ago, Freda said:

50k annually, with any top-up to be met by the club. 

That seems to me to be so far away from reality as to be mind-boggling. 

Yes that is way off from what I've read.  They must have factored in significant revenue from on track training fees.  Certainly at $50k are year they are not accruing sufficient cash to fund the major revitalisation that occurs every so many years.  For example the "poly-fill" doesn't last forever and will have to be imported again.   

[Reefton]

if they were to go the Strathayr way what are the ongoing maintenance costs there?(as compared to an allweather I mean)

[Chief Stipe]

6 minutes ago, Reefton said:

if they were to go the Strathayr way what are the ongoing maintenance costs there?(as compared to an allweather I mean)

Still not cheap however a Strathayr doesn't require daily grooming (probably at least twice daily) which a Polytrack does.  Being turf based the Strathayr requires less intervention on a daily basis.  It is also more tolerant of temperature changes and rainfall unlike a Polytrack.

[Chief Stipe]

I keep going back to the Pakenham Training and Racing Facility for a benchmark on what to expect.  They have the longest turf track in Australia (2400m) and a Polytrack.  Their average Racecourse and Facility Management cost over the last two years has been $1m a year.  That obviously includes ALL facilities on the track. (their Administration cost was $2.8m!).

Racecourse development from scratch was around $90m.

Note they get a Training Track subsidy from Racing Victoria of about $800,000 per year.

2018-19-annual-report-email.pdf

[Chief Stipe]

I found the following about the Kempton Park Racecourse Polytrack in the UK.  The water issue concerns me especially with the extremes we get in Canterbury.  How will a Polytrack behave in a -7 Degree frost?  Or a 28 degree Nor' Wester?

Large volumes of water needed to produce the ideal all-weather going necessitated investment in a state of the art irrigation system, which uses a high capacity ring main fed from a borehole with a 86 cu.m licence via powerful pumps to Briggs reels and booms. The irrigation system can put 25mm of water on the entire track in forty-eight hours, which also benefits the turf course.

The surface itself was commissioned from Martin Collins Enterprises and is a new generation Polytrack mix of sixty-three percent silica sand, recycled materials and binding waxes.

"Water is added to give 'life' to the surface - in direct contrast to turf, the warmer and dryer it gets, the slower the going - and to prevent 'kickback' which is uncomfortable for horses and riders. Our maintenance programme is dictated by the air temperature and moisture - the material also generates heat and, with an air temperature of 22^OC, the ground temperature can be 48^OC, so the aim is to get water on and keep it to a temperature of around 20^OC," explains Barney.

Minimising excessive compaction is also important to provide a consistent, safe surface - the aim is to achieve the equivalent of good-firm going on the turf.

Preparation for racing involves using a Kuhn power harrow to 4in deep and a rotavator to 5in to break up any compaction, with a Vaderstad disc cultivator on heavily compacted areas such as crossings.

The Cousins Gallop-Master, which combines spring tines with cage rollers to condition and level the surface, is then used to a depth of 3in, with 4.5 and 5m units working wheel to wheel to give a consistent result across the course.

"Eventually, the material begins to break down and the surface is given an annual audit by Professional Sportsturf Design Ltd to ensure that its composition is right, comments Barney. "We have a very good relationship with the manufacturer, which uses Kempton Park as a training academy and Martin has actually run his own horse here!"

Results from the most recent audit have indicated that a top-up will be needed in 2012, rather than a simple rewaxing, which can sometimes rejuvenate an all-weather track. Some 700 tonnes of sand plus wax will be added in the summer and incorporated by the autumn at a cost of £250,000, which will give the material an extra five or six years' lifespan.
 

[Chief Stipe]

 

[Chief Stipe]

Once this AWT is installed it will be damn difficult to remove it.  The foundation is essentially a tarmac road!

 

[Chief Stipe]

 

[Chief Stipe]

On 3/09/2020 at 9:29 AM, Pitman said:

DON’T make things up to suit yourself I never said “I won’t have to travel again“

 

Quote from De Lore, The Optimist interview with Pitty:

Leading South Island and Riccarton trainer Michael Pitman makes no bones about where he stands in the Riccarton Polytrack debate.

He says: “No one knows how much it’s going to cost; that’s the thing that annoys me. They have a ballpark figure; it could be as low as $12 or $13 million, but it could be as high as $18 million, but they don’t know until the design plan is finalised.

Michael Pitman: I want to see more racing at Riccarton, and I don’t want to travel anymore…

“Personally, and I’m looking at this through rose coloured glass. I am based at Riccarton and have my own property at Yaldhurst, and I want to see more racing at Riccarton, and I don’t want to travel anymore because I’m sick of it.”

When asked what Michael Pitman would say to the people in Southland who might lose dates and have to travel more, Michael responded, “I agree with that, they probably will have to travel more, but that’s life.

“I’m all in favour of the all-weather track,” Michael continued, “and I hate the criticism of the track coming from people who have never seen one in their life. They are not the be-all and end-all; they’re only an aid, and they’ll probably hold only 12 meetings a year on the Riccarton one.

[Chief Stipe]

I think Tim Mills is being a bit optimistic regarding maintenance costs - he is excluding daily staff costs as well - there would surely have to be an increase in staff to do things such as track grooming, watering (you need to water a polytrack to get surface consistency relative to temperature), picking up horse dung (polytrack's deteriorate with the addition of organic material):

Tim Mills continued, “There are so many different stories about what they cost, and that’s certainly not what the maintenance costs will be. We’re told that if you spread the costs out over a 12-year average with the big projects that have to happen every four years, then it averages out at $55,000 to $65,000 annually.

[Chief Stipe]

More from Tim Mills.  I think they are very optimistic at $65,000 annual maintenance costs.  Mills says if it is over that then it isn't sustainable!  The costs to maintain the turf track will remain and will probably increase - we all know that there is an underlying (excuse the pun) issue with the main turf track.

“If it’s costing $5,000 a week, which is $250,000 a year, there is no way we can run it. Our information is it will cost between $55,000 and $65,000 a year to maintain, and if you look at what we pay to maintain grass tracks, the plough and sand tracks, it’s not in excess of that figure.