Kumara

[Freda]

BTW, welcome to the forum anyway.   Contributions from all perspectives are necessary to create good dialogue - opinions are like arseholes, we all have them.

[Reefton]

Haven’t really been watching this debate too closely - enjoying a nice weekend in Cromwell (at the races of all places)

The response to Tesio is the same as to Michael Pitman(who as everyone knows is a mate of mine) regarding Westland - the issue was patience or lack of it on the part of NZTR and their Waikato cronies.  The fault for Westland giving away their asset was the way they were treated and I don’t blame them one iota for doing it.  Had NZTR waited five years the Westland Racing club would have been gone and the money turned over but no these wankers had to play the tough game and look what happened.

The immortal Bart Cummings had a saying ‘Patience is the cheapest thing in racing and the least used’ .  Bart didn’t mean it in that way but by hell the same principle applies.

As for the industry being entitled to the asset the Westland Community built up well I might say that Te Akau or Cambridge Stud or Tony Pike or whoever all owe their existence to the racing industry so why not grab all their assets?  Wouldn’t the reaction to that suggestion be a delight to behold?

No need to argue that owners provide those lot with their money - that $138000 you claim Westland received came from the punters (routed through the various bludger middlemen in Petone and further north all taking a cut) and the reality anyway is that most of that never goes into the Club bank account.  It is accounting alone that says that is the amount received(NZTR never pays it to the club just pays it direct to the owners - those with good memories will recall me questioning the cashflow statement of the Cambridge Jockey Club but I quickly twigged that was the reason).

But you Mr Tesio lay claim to Westland’s assets and further state they return a dismal amount to the industry.  Well if we apply that logic the industry owns Ellerslie and Riccarton as well with values of probably $5billion and $500million respectively(and all their grandiose facilities and track renovations were built using the Amenities Fund as well I might add - unlike Westland’s which were built by the community of Hokitika).  So do your sums and report back as to the return the Industry gets from ‘their’ investment in the Auckland and Christchurch venues.  I think poor old Westland might come out looking rather good.

But regardless you say you don’t want to come to the Coast - that’s your call but small minded people like you who seek to grab the assets others have struggled to build up and maintain would not be particularly welcome there anyway and nor will you be missed.  We will have Kevin Myers and Michael Pitman plus the battlers like Pam any day.

Edited November 27, 2020 by Reefton

[Tesio]

19 minutes ago, Reefton said:

Haven’t really been watching this debate too closely - enjoying a nice weekend in Cromwell (at the races of all places)

The response to Tesio is the same as to Michael Pitman(who as everyone knows is a mate of mine) regarding Westland - the issue was patience or lack of it on the part of NZTR and their Waikato cronies.  The fault for Westland giving away their asset was the way they were treated and I don’t blame them one iota for doing it.  Had NZTR waited five years the Westland Racing club would have been gone and the money turned over but no these wankers had to play the tough game and look what happened.

The immortal Bart Cummings had a saying ‘Patience is the cheapest thing in racing and the least used’ .  Bart didn’t mean it in that way but by hell the same principle applies.

As for the industry being entitled to the asset the Westland Community built up well I might say that Te Akau or Cambridge Stud or Tony Pike or whoever all owe their existence to the racing industry so why not grab all their assets?  Wouldn’t the reaction to that suggestion be a delight to behold?

No need to argue that owners provide those lot with their money - that $138000 you claim Westland received came from the punters (routed through the various bludger middlemen in Petone and further north all taking a cut) and the reality anyway is that most of that never goes into the Club bank account.  It is accounting alone that says that is the amount received(NZTR never pays it to the club just pays it direct to the owners - those with good memories will recall me questioning the cashflow statement of the Cambridge Jockey Club but I quickly twigged that was the reason).

But you Mr Tesio lay claim to Westland’s assets and further state they return a dismal amount to the industry.  Well if we apply that logic the industry owns Ellerslie and Riccarton as well with values of probably $5billion and $500million respectively(and all their grandiose facilities and track renovations were built using the Amenities Fund as well I might add - unlike Westland’s which were built by the community of Hokitika).  So do your sums and report back as to the return the Industry gets from ‘their’ investment in the Auckland and Christchurch venues.  I think poor old Westland might come out looking rather good.

But regardless you say you don’t want to come to the Coast - that’s your call but small minded people like you who seek to grab the assets others have struggled to build up and maintain would not be particularly welcome there anyway and nor will you be missed.  We will have Kevin Myers and Michael Pitman plus the battlers like Pam any day.

Are you actually serious Reefton... “the return the Industry gets from their investment in the Auckland and Christchurch venues. I think poor old Westland might come out looking good”...... 

Reality check Reefton...There is no industry without venues like Riccarton or Ellerslie, ....ONCE AGAIN comments being shot off without thinking from a owners perspective. 

No I wont be coming to the coast.....your forget my reasons.....to far to travel horses for crap stakes is one of them. Actually I will be happily in Auckland to spend time at Ellersile on New Years Day, and before you shoot off again about my so called small mindedness (that could be the pot calling the kettle black) my favourite Raceday in NZ is actually Kurow.

[Reefton]

29 minutes ago, Tesio said:

Are you actually serious Reefton... “the return the Industry gets from their investment in the Auckland and Christchurch venues. I think poor old Westland might come out looking good”...... 

Reality check Reefton...There is no industry without venues like Riccarton or Ellerslie, ....ONCE AGAIN comments being shot off without thinking from a owners perspective. 

No I wont be coming to the coast.....your forget my reasons.....to far to travel horses for crap stakes is one of them. Actually I will be happily in Auckland to spend time at Ellersile on New Years Day, and before you shoot off again about my so called small mindedness (that could be the pot calling the kettle black) my favourite Raceday in NZ is actually Kurow.

So what is the rate of return from Kurow.  

The NZ industry would be vastly vastly vastly better off by cashing up the Ellerslie’s and Riccartons.  Basis economics

[Tesio]

9 minutes ago, Reefton said:

So what is the rate of return from Kurow.  

The NZ industry would be vastly vastly vastly better off by cashing up the Ellerslie’s and Riccartons.  Basis economics

Supply and demand is pretty fundamental to economics Reefton

[nomates]

2 hours ago, Tesio said:

Reality check Reefton...There is no industry without venues like Riccarton or Ellerslie, ....ONCE AGAIN comments being shot off without thinking from a owners perspective. 

 

You just don't get it , they all need each other , the strength of the industry and the big players are underpinned by the strength of the small players . This industry was great once , because of the strength of all the parts of it . 

Read what i said earlier , there are no All Blacks without all the clubs , no matter how small , playing their part . It's the same for racing . 

We are now in the shape we are in because for too long now they have been taking more and more or giving less and less to the lower and middle tier clubs and given more and more to the larger clubs , who for the large part are still financially struggling for all that aid . This model can only survive for so long . 

You go on and on about owners , and i am on your side there , but why do you think the industry is struggling to retain the owners they have , far less increase the numbers . The strength of the industry was underpinned by the multitude of owners with small club affiliations .

No one on here is going to change your mind , clearly you are another supporter of the theory that smaller clubs have been " sucking the industry dry " . The biggest fallacy in the industry . 

Good luck to you , your going to need .

 

[Tesio]

4 minutes ago, nomates said:

You just don't get it , they all need each other , the strength of the industry and the big players are underpinned by the strength of the small players . This industry was great once , because of the strength of all the parts of it . 

Read what i said earlier , there are no All Blacks without all the clubs , no matter how small , playing their part . It's the same for racing . 

We are now in the shape we are in because for too long now they have been taking more and more or giving less and less to the lower and middle tier clubs and given more and more to the larger clubs , who for the large part are still financially struggling for all that aid . This model can only survive for so long . 

You go on and on about owners , and i am on your side there , but why do you think the industry is struggling to retain the owners they have , far less increase the numbers . The strength of the industry was underpinned by the multitude of owners with small club affiliations .

No one on here is going to change your mind , clearly you are another supporter of the theory that smaller clubs have been " sucking the industry dry " . The biggest fallacy in the industry . 

Good luck to you , your going to need .

 

Nomates...I have never said the small clubs are sucking the industry dry, to imply that is rubbish. But for small clubs to claim they have never had any industry support, well that’s rubbish.

I too grew up as a kid painting rails, rubbing pigeon shit off seats, getting ready for our big race day......but that world is gone.

Yes small clubs still have a place and are central to our industry, no body is disagreeing with that.....but 60 clubs and the number of tracks we have, well that’s another story.

Like it or not the race calendar as you knew it is about to be turned upside down. Those small clubs that embrace that, and actually put their thinking caps on and position themselves for the future will survive.  

West coast racing is case in point...you have a golden opportunity....but you lot cant see the Trees from the Forrest.

 

[Chief Stipe]

22 minutes ago, Tesio said:

West coast racing is case in point...you have a golden opportunity....but you lot cant see the Trees from the Forrest.

You wouldn't have seen the business case for the All Weather Tracks by any chance?

[nomates]

10 minutes ago, Tesio said:

Like it or not the race calendar as you knew it is about to be turned upside down. Those small clubs that embrace that, and actually put their thinking caps on and position themselves for the future will survive.  

 

None of what you suggest the small clubs do , embrace change , position themselves , put their thinking caps on , will matter a jot . If The powers that be say you are gone , you are gone , for what appears to be a cash grab . Hence the reason this debate started , you thinking Reefton were selfish . Other clubs are in the same position . Reefton decided they didn't give up what they considered a community asset , their prerogative , don't just knock them , put yourself in their  shoes , think about the wider community that are being completely disregarded . 

There is much more to this than clubs just being selfish .

[Chief Stipe]

15 minutes ago, Tesio said:

Yes small clubs still have a place and are central to our industry, no body is disagreeing with that.....but 60 clubs and the number of tracks we have, well that’s another story.

So how many is optimal?

Which ones should stay?

The irony is the track that is the title of this thread, Kumara, should have been the first to go on the West Coast for a long list of reasons.

Now if you think closing down clubs and tracks that provide a low cost model of delivering the product and replacing them with a high cost model is going to work then you are delusional.

[Chief Stipe]

Also the current NZTR management direction has been going on for years.  The new Act only gives it momentum and the ability to manipulate the acquisition of assets.  The latter they won't find as easy as they think aka Hokitika.

Now given the approach isn't changing, just gaining momentum, has anyone stopped to ask the elephant in the room why this direction doesn't seem to be working?  Could the direction itself be the reason for the decline of the industry?  Awapuni is a classic case in point.

[nomates]

26 minutes ago, Tesio said:

I too grew up as a kid painting rails, rubbing pigeon shit off seats, getting ready for our big race day......but that world is gone.

 

I think you are out of touch , my 3 local clubs still have many volunteers doing all of the above , i would suggest all of the 1, 2, 3 , 4day clubs rely on this effort .

 

28 minutes ago, Tesio said:

Yes small clubs still have a place and are central to our industry, no body is disagreeing with that.....but 60 clubs and the number of tracks we have, well that’s another story.

 

So if you don't subscribe to the sucking the industry dry monologue , what's the problem , if they are not costing the industry and are making revenue what's the problem , no harm , no foul . I would suggest for the local communities these meetings would be a great loss , especially the 1 day clubs . Set them KPI's , meet them or your gone , simple equation .

As i said this more about getting cash than anything else .

[Chief Stipe]

3 minutes ago, nomates said:

As i said this more about getting cash than anything else .

They need to get it from somewhere because I sure as hell can't see how places like Awapuni and Riccarton are going to generate all the extra revenue they need to maintain their new toy's let alone fix their turf tracks.

FFS even Ellerslie are betting the house on developing Countries and Avondale for housing!

[Tesio]

33 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

You wouldn't have seen the business case for the All Weather Tracks by any chance?

Yes...but Only the version that had commercial information retracted 

[Tesio]

16 minutes ago, nomates said:

I think you are out of touch , my 3 local clubs still have many volunteers doing all of the above , i would suggest all of the 1, 2, 3 , 4day clubs rely on this effort .

 

So if you don't subscribe to the sucking the industry dry monologue , what's the problem , if they are not costing the industry and are making revenue what's the problem , no harm , no foul . I would suggest for the local communities these meetings would be a great loss , especially the 1 day clubs . Set them KPI's , meet them or your gone , simple equation .

As i said this more about getting cash than anything else .

Nomates.....I didn’t mean clubs no longer have volunteers ....god  I’m not that stupid......i was meaning my days are gone doing that.

I agree, its a loss to some of these communities.....as mentioned i love going to the Kurow races. But every town does not need a race meeting....we are a small country.... I’m sure greymouth people can get in the car and go to Kumara or vers......

Once again.....think about the owners.....we don't have the horse population for all these race meeting...its uneconomic .....less races = better races. Less travel = owners burning less money. Less clubs/race tracks = less resourcing required.

Take a close look at central district racing........industry money wasted on stakes for continual poor field numbers. 

 

[Tesio]

27 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

They need to get it from somewhere because I sure as hell can't see how places like Awapuni and Riccarton are going to generate all the extra revenue they need to maintain their new toy's let alone fix their turf tracks.

FFS even Ellerslie are betting the house on developing Countries and Avondale for housing!

Chief....I believe what Ellerslie and Counties are trying to do is the best news this industry has had for many years. It’s time to go hard or go home. Maybe West Coast racing could take a leaf out of their book, instead of always looking into the past. The Westland Club assets would have been a good start to underpin ‘West Coast Racing’....but that ship has sailed.

[Chief Stipe]

12 minutes ago, Tesio said:

Once again.....think about the owners.....we don't have the horse population for all these race meeting...its uneconomic .....less races = better races. Less travel = owners burning less money. Less clubs/race tracks = less resourcing required.

So where in the hell is the revenue coming from to sustain Riccartons AWT and fix it's turf track?

What did the business case say about revenue generation or is that commercially sensitive?

 

[Chief Stipe]

16 minutes ago, Tesio said:

Take a close look at central district racing........industry money wasted on stakes for continual poor field numbers

Then why the bloody hell build a new AWT there?

[nomates]

6 minutes ago, Tesio said:

Once again.....think about the owners.....we don't have the horse population for all these race meeting...its uneconomic .....less races = better races. Less travel = owners burning less money.

 

Think perhaps you need to invest in Singapore or HK , or wait long enough will be the same here . 

I never hear owners complaining about travelling to get a race , they complain about travelling to race for crap stakes . Now that argument is about they way we are managed .

You can and they will close all the tracks they want , wont make a jot of difference to stake levels , it might save you some travelling bills .

If your gona get hyped up about something then get stuck into the people who are pissing money against the wall with their grandiose ideas , but in the current case a complete and utter lack of ideas . 

Clubs going into debt to build A/W's that wont increase revenue , certainly nor enough to change the wind against us , we are far from bottomed out .

[nomates]

20 minutes ago, Tesio said:

 Less clubs/race tracks = less resourcing required.

 

 

What resources ? 

I get it you don't want to travel your horses , but many are happy to , that's owners money not industry money . So again no harm , no foul . These meeting serve a purpose , no , many purposes .

These meetings in many ways garner more money on a cost / return basis for the industry than a large portion of the big days , but that's fine that is their job , they're not complaining . 

The only ones complaining are the ones that want to get their hands on the cash .

I have had this debate with many with your argument and i always ask the same question , but i'm still waiting , no one can give me any idea of the figures that it is costing the industry , not even the head office who are promoting the argument , so at the moment the argument for closure is redundant .

I ask again , what resources , what is the cost to the industry to prop up these lame ducks .

I wait in anticipation .

[Huey]

1 hour ago, Tesio said:

Nomates...I have never said the small clubs are sucking the industry dry, to imply that is rubbish. But for small clubs to claim they have never had any industry support, well that’s rubbish.

I too grew up as a kid painting rails, rubbing pigeon shit off seats, getting ready for our big race day......but that world is gone.

Yes small clubs still have a place and are central to our industry, no body is disagreeing with that.....but 60 clubs and the number of tracks we have, well that’s another story.

Like it or not the race calendar as you knew it is about to be turned upside down. Those small clubs that embrace that, and actually put their thinking caps on and position themselves for the future will survive.  

West coast racing is case in point...you have a golden opportunity....but you lot cant see the Trees from the Forrest.

 

Youre implying the calendar is being turned upside for the better of the industry, it isn't . They tried to sell the same waffly propaganda when they messed around with the Derby, Auckland Cup (midweek race that stops 2 nations was it?) etc etc , hasn't improved it one bit.

Worse still the personnel who have got the industry in the shape it is in now are in charge of that process. They are sucking the sport dry thinking based on a fabricated notion that they can replicate what the likes of Aus. has but in doing so they totally disregard whats made their racing so strong.

 

[Huey]

1 hour ago, nomates said:

I think you are out of touch , my 3 local clubs still have many volunteers doing all of the above , i would suggest all of the 1, 2, 3 , 4day clubs rely on this effort .

 

So if you don't subscribe to the sucking the industry dry monologue , what's the problem , if they are not costing the industry and are making revenue what's the problem , no harm , no foul . I would suggest for the local communities these meetings would be a great loss , especially the 1 day clubs . Set them KPI's , meet them or your gone , simple equation .

As i said this more about getting cash than anything else .

Exactly set them KPI's , but also hold the big clubs to account with more significant Performance Indicators given they operate on full time staff , the best dates available, unbridled support from NZTR the list goes on.

[Huey]

43 minutes ago, Tesio said:

Nomates.....I didn’t mean clubs no longer have volunteers ....god  I’m not that stupid......i was meaning my days are gone doing that.

I agree, its a loss to some of these communities.....as mentioned i love going to the Kurow races. But every town does not need a race meeting....we are a small country.... I’m sure greymouth people can get in the car and go to Kumara or vers......

Once again.....think about the owners.....we don't have the horse population for all these race meeting...its uneconomic .....less races = better races. Less travel = owners burning less money. Less clubs/race tracks = less resourcing required.

Take a close look at central district racing........industry money wasted on stakes for continual poor field numbers. 

 

Why not let owners and trainers be the judge of whether or not they want to support those race meetings? Without the product they won't survive for long, the smaller meetings play a huge role in growing interest in the sport, giving the youth their first taste , continuing local interest , giving the game its character, providing future staff to the industry etc.

Everything being done at the moment will destroy that, NZTR haven't got a clue and they don't really care about the future of the sport in NZ, but they can put a strategy on a PowerPoint Presentation and pretend its gonna save the industry. Many have said it before , but you can't keep selling the family jewels and keep going.

[Joe Bloggs]

36 minutes ago, Tesio said:

Chief....I believe what Ellerslie and Counties are trying to do is the best news this industry has had for many years. It’s time to go hard or go home. Maybe West Coast racing could take a leaf out of their book, instead of always looking into the past. The Westland Club assets would have been a good start to underpin ‘West Coast Racing’....but that ship has sailed.

You reckon that would work in England say? the size of NZ's NI.........you think the Hoi poloi there would cop having to race at Newmarket and Haydock, close all those brilliant tracks in-between, with all that history, it's what makes racing, and they pay their way on the back of community support and people power.......somethings missing, common sense for one.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

6 minutes ago, Huey said:

Why not let owners and trainers be the judge of whether or not they want to support those race meetings? Without the product they won't survive for long, the smaller meetings play a huge role in growing interest in the sport, giving the youth their first taste , continuing local interest , giving the game its character, providing future staff to the industry etc.

Everything being done at the moment will destroy that, NZTR haven't got a clue and they don't really care about the future of the sport in NZ, but they can put a strategy on a PowerPoint Presentation and pretend its gonna save the industry. Many have said it before , but you can't keep selling the family jewels and keep going.

How many of these industry terrorists will still be in this industry in say 5 or 10 years Huey? You reckon that Aussie bloke will still be kicking back admiring the view over the harbour from his office in the Taj Mahal? or some of the other suits with little between the left and right ears? Nah, they'll wander off into the sunset, damage done......how's it go again, all care, no responsibility?....in fact, no care no responsibility more like it.