Chief Stipe Posted January 21, 2021 Author Share Posted January 21, 2021 10 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said: First paragraph I see your thinking, as for Gai and TJ, nah, you're way off the mark there. Gai, TJ, Murray Baker they put heaps of pressure on early. Survival of the fittest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 7 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Gai, TJ, Murray Baker they put heaps of pressure on early. Survival of the fittest. A certain G Searle was the same . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 29 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: From what I've observed Sneaky is the sneaky. I think Avonallo might be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: The more I analyse the Karaka Million the more I'm convinced that the field this year is one of the best ever. I can see big upsides in more than half the field including the ballots. Last year field had the Eclispe & Wakefield winners in it, not saying that race was vintage either. But where are you seeing the strengths in this best field ever? I think the 3yo race might be surpassing the 2yo race for strength mysefl an exciting field assembled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bloggs Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: Gai, TJ, Murray Baker they put heaps of pressure on early. Survival of the fittest. Chief, there is pressure and then there's pressure, you have to know how to apply that pressure, I'm sure Freda knows what I'm talking about. Some trainers burn them out because they can't identify the 'signals' the horse gives, I know first hand from what I saw, people that had never left the village telling me how to train 2yo....don't make me laugh. Benner wasn't taught by the Horse whisperer, he was taught by Karen Z........the other bloke has a great eye for a horse, but you think he could train them as well as young Benner can.......there's an art to training 2yo's, you can critique TJ and Gai, but I saw them with their 2yo's while I was with Angus August Armanasco, and those icons would run rings around these people today, I can't vouch for M Baker, he was a stablehand when I was an apprentice, apparently, but he sure kicked on...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 59 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said: he was taught by Karen Z........the other bloke has a great eye for a horse, but you think he could train them as well as young Karen hardly trained 2yo's , very few 2yo winners . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 21, 2021 Author Share Posted January 21, 2021 2 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said: Benner wasn't taught by the Horse whisperer, he was taught by Karen Z........the other bloke has a great eye for a horse, but you think he could train them as well as young Benner can....... Benner spent a considerable amount of time with Rutten. That's where I first met Jonno when one of my horses was being broken in at Chris Ruttens. Joe you constantly tour yourself as a doyen of horse trainers but even you would concede that much of the work done to make a young race horse is done at the breaking in stage. Once the trainer gets them they just just work them and fine tune them. If you stuff up the first part you struggle with the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bloggs Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 Chief, I partly agree, the breaker is very important, Greg Bennett perhaps the most renowned breaker/trainer/breaker is a point in question. Greg trained horses for us, he also broke them in, he is different to many, including myself. I broke my own in at Flemington, back in the day when we had 2 meetings a week. The jumps jocks used to be our go to riders and would get on once the ground work was done......they still do now, but not to the extent they did back in the 70's and 80's when jumping in VIC was huge and riders plentiful. Greg rides his own, he's a class act and as Makybe Diva's breaker plus countless other gr1 horses, including Saturday's Magic Millions quinella, has a record to excel. Rutten broke our filly in as I was living in AUS and I met him when we were over on business, Benner trained her, he was only starting out then....I watched him grow as a trainer as you all did. I'm sure if Johno had of left for Oz he would have made it, with Holly he really can't fail, NZ may well fail him though Chief, if the prizemoney and programming keeps rolling south, it's goodnight Irene and Johno will have to bail....surely. I've seen some horrible jobs done by breakers, one of ours nearly ruined by a unprofessional sicko who is now out of business, told us our was 'one in a hundred' too the 10K for breaking in the 4 we sent them, but yes Chief they defined greatly the future path of that filly in particular. Thankfully, a patient and gifted lady trainer salvaged her career for us and she improved enough to show she deserved to be here in Oz. As Nomates alluded, Karen Z may not have trained a lot of 2yo winners, but I'm sure Johno learnt his early horsemanship skills from her and let's not forget the importance Holly brings to that partnership....she worked for Gai, Chief, ask Holly if she agrees with you and your assassination of Gai and her Dad......London to a brick on she wont agree with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 I would suggest that what Benner learnt at Ruttens was breaking and the gates education along with making young horses do the small things professionally . Right from the start i noticed how well behaved and professional they were at the gates at the Levin Jumpouts , very rarely beaten out of the gates and railed well . Good 2yo's are generally just faster and more mature than other young horses , physically and mentally , nobody can make them faster than they are , the good 2yo trainers are the ones that identify that and make them professional to go with that maturity . I've seen plenty of nice young horses ruined by people trying to make them what they simply can't be , it is by nature , natural selection . My pet hate is what goes on now , and i heard it again on an interview this week , this horse is a bit shinny so we have been managing it . WTF is a bit shinny , the horse is either shinny or it's not . It's a bone issue , give it a chance to repair . That's in my opinion why a lot of the young horses that have competed in the millions over the years have not really gone on , been pushed when they are not really ready . 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 7 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said: As Nomates alluded, Karen Z may not have trained a lot of 2yo winners, but I'm sure Johno learnt his early horsemanship skills from her and let's not forget the importance Holly brings to that partnership....she worked for Gai, Chief, ask Holly if she agrees with you and your assassination of Gai and her Dad......London to a brick on she wont agree with you. Joe , the one thing about Johno is that he is a natural , he was going to be a very good jockey until weight and a poor attitude brought him undone , but from the start of his training he has shown an innate aptitude for training racehorses , and i think sometimes the good ones just have that talent . Johno also was indentured to J Sargent in Matamata for a while , now i think he probably learnt more there than anywhere . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bloggs Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 4 minutes ago, nomates said: Joe , the one thing about Johno is that he is a natural , he was going to be a very good jockey until weight and a poor attitude brought him undone , but from the start of his training he has shown an innate aptitude for training racehorses , and i think sometimes the good ones just have that talent . Johno also was indentured to J Sargent in Matamata for a while , now i think he probably learnt more there than anywhere . Thank you NM, Johno didn't share the JS part with me, another Kiwi that bolted for greener climes.......imagine if they were all still in NZ and were racing for min 40k and 75k on Sat? Could have happened I reckon, until the terrorists got loose in Petone and the cartel hit full swing and fucked the game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bloggs Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 15 minutes ago, nomates said: I would suggest that what Benner learnt at Ruttens was breaking and the gates education along with making young horses do the small things professionally . Right from the start i noticed how well behaved and professional they were at the gates at the Levin Jumpouts , very rarely beaten out of the gates and railed well . Good 2yo's are generally just faster and more mature than other young horses , physically and mentally , nobody can make them faster than they are , the good 2yo trainers are the ones that identify that and make them professional to go with that maturity . I've seen plenty of nice young horses ruined by people trying to make them what they simply can't be , it is by nature , natural selection . My pet hate is what goes on now , and i heard it again on an interview this week , this horse is a bit shinny so we have been managing it . WTF is a bit shinny , the horse is either shinny or it's not . It's a bone issue , give it a chance to repair . That's in my opinion why a lot of the young horses that have competed in the millions over the years have not really gone on , been pushed when they are not really ready . Absolutely, the shinny thing is very alarming, I heard that the other day at the sales, by a name trainer, I choked on my hot dog.....his owner fell for it hook line and sinker...... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 21, 2021 Author Share Posted January 21, 2021 14 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said: ask Holly if she agrees with you and your assassination of Gai and her Dad I'm not sure Holly is old enough to have worked for TJ Smith. However both Gai and TJ are well known for the hardness of their training regimes. Gai has taken it to a new level as can be judged by the level of attrition in her stable. With Gai your horse certainly won't die wondering! The pressure is on from the start and they are trained hard to race on the pace at high cruising speeds. If you call that a character assassination then get your murphy blinds off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bloggs Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 Chief, your words not mine, Gai and TJ fucked horses.........most trainers 'fuck horses' at some time of our lives, usually during the learning curve, TJ's horses had bone and muscle, and yes, raced on the pace, so Gai emulates her Dad......Holly worked for Gai, I bet she learned plenty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bloggs Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 Back in 70's I rode work at 3 Sydney tracks, all bar W Farm, I saw up close how TJ worked his horses, the bloke was a legend, but I couldn't work for TJ, he was working his horses as I was getting home. ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 Go and look at the yearlings that are bought at sales and watch out for them , there is a large percentage never seen . It is the machine at work . As you said Jo , Armanasco babies were 6 weeks from box to post , that horrifies me , but that is the production line . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bloggs Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 The yanks train the same way NM, Angus bred a lot of his own at Sandown Lodge, no pre-trainer, they'd come in, next day saddle on, trot canter, 3 weeks, then 3 weeks of speed work, a jump out perhaps, Zedative could run from day 1, he was a big bugger, he took an extra week....LOL.......bang, M Valley blitzed them. I learned more from Angus than anyone, Deac inc, a huge highlight for me was running the quinella with him at M Valley in a 2yo race, he was a special man, humble, genius. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 11 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said: The yanks train the same way NM, Angus bred a lot of his own at Sandown Lodge, no pre-trainer, they'd come in, next day saddle on, trot canter, 3 weeks, then 3 weeks of speed work, a jump out perhaps, Zedative could run from day 1, he was a big bugger, he took an extra week....LOL.......bang, M Valley blitzed them. I learned more from Angus than anyone, Deac inc, a huge highlight for me was running the quinella with him at M Valley in a 2yo race, he was a special man, humble, genius. And he proves the natural selection theory , born to run as well as he did . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bloggs Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 3 minutes ago, nomates said: And he proves the natural selection theory , born to run as well as he did . He won 12 Melbourne premierships NM, each day he would walk in to the stables, walk to each box, run his hands over each horse, give em a hug and a kind word, check their feeders for waste and leave a work sheet before walking up to the gap and sitting in the box with the clocker......in the dark he knew every horse from 50 metres away.....at 80 years young!......a gift, I wish I was half as good NM. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 1 minute ago, Joe Bloggs said: I wish I was half as good NM. I'd be happy at 10% , I haven't seen too many trainers that give their horses a pat or hug at all , far less daily . Sounds like a lovely man . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 21, 2021 Author Share Posted January 21, 2021 39 minutes ago, nomates said: As you said Jo , Armanasco babies were 6 weeks from box to post , that horrifies me , but that is the production line . Angus Armanasco (1912 - 2005) - Inducted in 2002 After a highly successful career as a jockey in Perth, Angus Armanasco was to leave his mark on racing as an outstanding trainer in Victoria over many decades. As the Melbourne trainer for Stanley Wootton, Angus had considerable success with the Star Kingdom line with horses such as Biscay, Bletchingly, The Judge, True Version and Zeditave. He won the Victorian Trainers' Premiership seven times and his big race wins included three Blue Diamond Stakes (Tolerance, Forina and Zeditave) and a Golden Slipper (Full on Aces). He retired in 1998 and is honoured by the running of the Group 2 Angus Armanasco Stakes at Caulfield during the autumn. Armanasco was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 2002. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 21, 2021 Author Share Posted January 21, 2021 26 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said: Angus bred a lot of his own at Sandown Lodge, no pre-trainer The "no pre-trainer" bit I like. Very few pre-trainers in NZ I'd support. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bloggs Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 5 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Angus Armanasco (1912 - 2005) - Inducted in 2002 After a highly successful career as a jockey in Perth, Angus Armanasco was to leave his mark on racing as an outstanding trainer in Victoria over many decades. As the Melbourne trainer for Stanley Wootton, Angus had considerable success with the Star Kingdom line with horses such as Biscay, Bletchingly, The Judge, True Version and Zeditave. He won the Victorian Trainers' Premiership seven times and his big race wins included three Blue Diamond Stakes (Tolerance, Forina and Zeditave) and a Golden Slipper (Full on Aces). He retired in 1998 and is honoured by the running of the Group 2 Angus Armanasco Stakes at Caulfield during the autumn. Armanasco was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 2002. I stand corrected, I thought the boss won it 12 times.....blind loyalty....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KickintheKods Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 6 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: The "no pre-trainer" bit I like. Very few pre-trainers in NZ I'd support. There are a couple who are very good but none in the class of the late great. Rick Worthington. He was a freak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bloggs Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 We ran the quinella in the Ascot Vale stakes with True Version and Jackson Square, Jack had a bruised heel, I had a running argument with the boss as I though he picked it up trotting around the middle, a golf ball.......Gus wore my argument for a while and then lost it......I don't give a fuck how he did it, just fix it.......we did.......after the race it took just two words from the maestro, Thank you........I never met anyone that worked for him that didn't respect and revere him........sorry, I find it cathartic championing champions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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