Trainers' costs..

[Huey]

13 hours ago, Doomed said:

It sounds like they live in a bit of a parallel universe. Do they actually comment on anything useful? For instance, do they advise trainers in Canterbury that there is only one maiden race in Canterbury in almost a four week period and that is restricted to fillies and mares over 1,200m, and on an AWT, and therefore perhaps trainers should turn any maiden that isn't a filly or mare sprinter out for a few weeks to save their owners some money.

Like most nz racing entities they don't do "rocking the boat".

[Chief Stipe]

5 minutes ago, Huey said:

Like most nz racing entities they don't do "rocking the boat".

Isn't that like most racing identities and active participants?  Seems to me everyone is too scared to say anything "to rock the boat" until they are about to board a plane for OZ or have hung the bridle on the wall in retirement!

[Reefton]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Te Akau's owner churn can't be too bad.  I know someone who has tried to buy a share or two in the last two seasons and has missed out because the syndicates were full.  So that would indicate that there is not much churn because attracting new players in the current economic environment and the public perception of racing would make it extremely difficult to sign up newbies.  As for "fluking" a winner - it seems that Te Akau have at least 2 or 3 of those a year!

Just remind me how many they buy a year so I can put that claim that about their judgement in picking top horses into perspective?  For every Gingernuts or Melody Belle they have quite a selection listed on Gavelhouse.  For all that I am not knocking their judgment in horse selection.  We all know it is bloody hard to win a maiden let alone a Derby or G1 so good luck to D Ellis in that.  They do not produce two or three 'Gingernuts' per year either.  I'm not talking about a Group1 winner I am talking about a multiple Group1 winner including in Aussie.

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Is it any better or worse elsewhere?  If you were "well heeled" wouldn't you be better to take 5% in 10 Te Akau horses than buy 50% of one with someone else given Te Akau's record?  You know the odds of getting a horse that can even win a race is very long. 

Well I have had shares in nags with Trainers who have trained a lot more winners - if not group winners - than them(so not mugs) and would have horses there again so in my experience it is different elsewhere yes.

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

I would say that the biggest determinate of customer churn in the coming two years will be the economy.  Te Akau have been surprisingly loyal to the NZ Racing industry but I can't see how that can continue forever given the huge difference in stakes between here and Australia.  I was very surprised that Jamie Richards chose to go to Hong Kong and not carry the Tangerine flag to a satellite stable in Australia.  I give Jamie no more than two seasons in Hong Kong.

Surprisingly loyal?  They are probably like Pike and Sharrock who both - at different times in the last several years - announced they were leaving NZ but are notably still here.  Going to Aussie or Hong Kong(difficult anyway to get invited) means going form being a big fish in a small pond to the little fish in the big pond.  Not as simple and straightforward - nor as lucrative in many cases - as it appears.

And as for whether Jamie goes well in HK or not well he has done unbelievably well to be invited.  There were a lot bagging hm early on in his TA career('it was all Autridge', 'anyone could do it with that quality of stock') but he proved he was well up to the mark.  He follows NZ racing royalty(PD O'Sullivan) to HK but he is the first in ten plus years to go there direct from here.  I wish him all the best and hope he smashes them over there.  Not that I know him well but whatever I have seen of him he is class(he ought to be - he is bred that way).  Good luck to him.

 

 

[Chief Stipe]

27 minutes ago, Reefton said:

Shows how much you know about the way NZB works.  They are massive financiers of horses sold at their sales.  Half the people buying there would have arrangements with them to finance the nags until owners are found.  There was the famous case a year or two ago of a very prominent buyer/syndicator who was not allowed to bid unless someone was guaranteeing him.

@Reefton the inference from @billy connolly was that NZ Bloodstock "carry" Te Akau.  That isn't true.  Yes NZB can offer finance AND come to short term arrangements - no different to any other business.  But they don't do that for free.

Your reference to the "very prominent buyer/syndicator" requiring a guarantor proves my point.  NZB aren't in the business of "carrying anyone" for very long.  

My understanding is each year Te Akau put their own capital at risk NOT NZ Bloodstock's.  I might add it is nowhere near the capital being risked by some of the big Ozzie trainers and Syndicators.  As yet Te Akau haven't been caught short.  However even they would agree there are head winds on the horizon in NZ.

27 minutes ago, Reefton said:

I do not know(and more importantly do not care) if David Ellis uses those financing facilities with NZB nor whether he gets favourable terms from them but they are certainly available.  You would imagine that given the volume of his purchases he would have a pretty sweet deal if he does make use of them but as I say that is his business and between him and Peter Vela.  There is no impact on the run of the mill stakeholder in the game so it is none of their concern. 

Exactly.  I agree 100% it is THEIR business.  However I've been reliably informed that Te Akau don't go past the standard 30 days.  When you think about it - it is the only way to run a business in the racing industry.  Very quickly you can come unstuck if you are relying on sweet deals and terms to give you time to syndicate your horses.  Been many an example of that in the industry - Bart Cummings and Gai Waterhouse spring to mind.  You can't just leave a growing yearling in the paddock.

[Reefton]

26 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

@Reefton the inference from @billy connolly was that NZ Bloodstock "carry" Te Akau.  That isn't true.  Yes NZB can offer finance AND come to short term arrangements - no different to any other business.  But they don't do that for free.

Your reference to the "very prominent buyer/syndicator" requiring a guarantor proves my point.  NZB aren't in the business of "carrying anyone" for very long.  

 

And your comment was that Te Akau's terms were the same as everyone else's - payment within 30 days.  I merely pointed out that those were not the terms that a lot of people work on with NZB AND said I have no idea or interest in what David Ellis' terms are with NZB

As far as NZB not 'carrying anyone' for very long again you are a little naive.  There will be a million pin hookers riding on NZB finance from March this year through to November next year and the Ready to Runs.  Finance is how an awful lot of NZ's richlist make their money.  It ain't you buying a new Merc that makes Colin Giltrap the money - it is you putting it on the never never paying a higher rate and a ton of admin charges, leasing it and possibly insuring it through them that makes the dosh.  Ditto Eric Watson years ago through Noel Leeming, Bond & Bond or whatever.

And that carrying pin hookers is the 'head winds' you mention that will be concerning NZB - and a lot of Aussie bloodstock companies - right now as well.  Both here and in Aussie 

 

29 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

My understanding is each year Te Akau put their own capital at risk NOT NZ Bloodstock's.  I might add it is nowhere near the capital being risked by some of the big Ozzie trainers and Syndicators.  As yet Te Akau haven't been caught short.  However even they would agree there are head winds on the horizon in NZ.

Exactly.  I agree 100% it is THEIR business.  However I've been reliably informed that Te Akau don't go past the standard 30 days.  When you think about it - it is the only way to run a business in the racing industry.  Very quickly you can come unstuck if you are relying on sweet deals and terms to give you time to syndicate your horses.  Been many an example of that in the industry - Bart Cummings and Gai Waterhouse spring to mind.  You can't just leave a growing yearling in the paddock.

Not sure how good you understanding is of Te Akau but unless you are in Ellis' very close team I doubt you know for sure what his financing arrangements are.  He possibly covers it himself with banking arrangements(but I emphasis again that is none of my business or my concern)

Pretty well known that Bart was let down by a bunch of Accountants and their cronies who ran for the hills when the sharemarket crashed and left the great man high and dry.  You only need to read some of the books about the limited partnerships in films and bloodstock and God knows what else in the 80's to realise what a disreputable bunch of pricks were operating then.  Impossible not to have sympathy for poor old Bart but we all know you cannot trust an Accountant(LOL)

 

[Joe Bloggs]

19 minutes ago, Reefton said:

And your comment was that Te Akau's terms were the same as everyone else's - payment within 30 days.  I merely pointed out that those were not the terms that a lot of people work on with NZB AND said I have no idea or interest in what David Ellis' terms are with NZB

As far as NZB not 'carrying anyone' for very long again you are a little naive.  There will be a million pin hookers riding on NZB finance from March this year through to November next year and the Ready to Runs.  Finance is how an awful lot of NZ's richlist make their money.  It ain't you buying a new Merc that makes Colin Giltrap the money - it is you putting it on the never never paying a higher rate and a ton of admin charges, leasing it and possibly insuring it through them that makes the dosh.  Ditto Eric Watson years ago through Noel Leeming, Bond & Bond or whatever.

And that carrying pin hookers is the 'head winds' you mention that will be concerning NZB - and a lot of Aussie bloodstock companies - right now as well.  Both here and in Aussie 

 

Not sure how good you understanding is of Te Akau but unless you are in Ellis' very close team I doubt you know for sure what his financing arrangements are.  He possibly covers it himself with banking arrangements(but I emphasis again that is none of my business or my concern)

Pretty well known that Bart was let down by a bunch of Accountants and their cronies who ran for the hills when the sharemarket crashed and left the great man high and dry.  You only need to read some of the books about the limited partnerships in films and bloodstock and God knows what else in the 80's to realise what a disreputable bunch of pricks were operating then.  Impossible not to have sympathy for poor old Bart but we all know you cannot trust an Accountant(LOL)

 

Absolute champion post......I saw first hand the machination of financing when two NZ/OZ studs  tried to merge and a well know finance house got involved as an equity partner back in the 80's......it ended in tears, two behemoths and a massive finance house.........My missus was a victim, had to sue the finance house for 12 weeks wages, the deals that went on behind the scenes in that debacle, involving some of the biggest name trainers demanding 'deals' before buying the prospective yearlings, free services, long term payment arrangements, all done with the knowledge of the auction houses........different auction house now, but do you think it's a different MO? Reefton is %100 correct, and anyone wants to argue that, come see me.......with your cheque book.

[Chief Stipe]

20 minutes ago, Reefton said:

As far as NZB not 'carrying anyone' for very long again you are a little naive.  There will be a million pin hookers riding on NZB finance from March this year through to November next year and the Ready to Runs.  Finance is how an awful lot of NZ's richlist make their money.  It ain't you buying a new Merc that makes Colin Giltrap the money - it is you putting it on the never never paying a higher rate and a ton of admin charges, leasing it and possibly insuring it through them that makes the dosh.  Ditto Eric Watson years ago through Noel Leeming, Bond & Bond or whatever.

 

Call me naive if you wish however the point I made is that NZB are not carrying anyone for very long.  You can't afford to with a race horse which can lose its value much much quicker than one of Giltrap's Merc's.  Of course you are embellishing and exaggerating to make a point - really "a million pin hookers"?

NZB's term's and conditions are tighter than a ducks arse and they are ruthless in enforcing them.  https://www.nzb.co.nz/finance-services  Just like their Premier yearling selection they are very very selective on what type of horse they finance.  No doubt you need guarantee's up to your ying yang as well.

So you will need some very good guarantee's to secure finance and as a business model borrowing money to fund horse purchases is a slippery slope to a lot of tears.

30 minutes ago, Reefton said:

And that carrying pin hookers is the 'head winds' you mention that will be concerning NZB - and a lot of Aussie bloodstock companies - right now as well.  Both here and in Aussie 

Not so much in OZ.  Yes costs are rising in OZ but not as fast as in NZ.  The market in OZ is still bullish fuelled by the extraordinary increases in stake money.  You only have to look at the current seasons sales to see that.

 

[Chief Stipe]

2 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Absolute champion post......I saw first hand the machination of financing when two NZ/OZ studs  tried to merge and a well know finance house got involved as an equity partner back in the 80's......it ended in tears, two behemoths and a massive finance house.........My missus was a victim, had to sue the finance house for 12 weeks wages, the deals that went on behind the scenes in that debacle, involving some of the biggest name trainers demanding 'deals' before buying the prospective yearlings, free services, long term payment arrangements, all done with the knowledge of the auction houses........different auction house now, but do you think it's a different MO? Reefton is %100 correct, and anyone wants to argue that, come see me.......with your cheque book.

@Joe Bloggs 40 years ago everyone was at not just the horse industry.  Hell @Reefton can attest to that having first hand knowledge of some of the rorts that were going on on the West Coast.  Is there still a three story building in Hokitika built on the back of an Accounting Firms sharemarket rort?

Suggest you get up to date.

[Chief Stipe]

Anyway back to the Topic.

Spreadsheet attached showing the cost per employee were derived.

NZ Thoroughbred Training Fees.xlsx

[Joe Bloggs]

Rorts are part and parcel of our industry, bending the rules are still part and parcel, and fiscal tweaking is still alive and well, creative accounting is an art form, some are better at it than others, one thing though is for sure, where money is involved and credit is omnipresent, agreements beyond the  norm are enacted, I bet London to a brick on that the leading syndicators have agreements Joe Public could never achieve, that's just good business, not illegal, and the sales couldn't happen if credit agreements weren't reached beforehand.

Longtime since I brought at auction, and it will never happen again, for me, might have, if the industry had a bright future, but like Reefton, we are aware enough to see the inevitable, good luck to TA, he doesn't hold a gun to anyones head, if you read a prospectus and agree with it's criteria, then good on you......#eyeswideopen 

[nomates]

2 hours ago, Reefton said:

Shows how much you know about the way NZB works.  They are massive financiers of horses sold at their sales.  Half the people buying there would have arrangements with them to finance the nags until owners are found.  There was the famous case a year or two ago of a very prominent buyer/syndicator who was not allowed to bid unless someone was guaranteeing him.

I do not know(and more importantly do not care) if David Ellis uses those financing facilities with NZB nor whether he gets favourable terms from them but they are certainly available.  You would imagine that given the volume of his purchases he would have a pretty sweet deal if he does make use of them but as I say that is his business and between him and Peter Vela.  There is no impact on the run of the mill stakeholder in the game so it is none of their concern. 

 

This is very much so , probably not so many now but plenty used to buy yearlings on tick with NZB , they do have a financing division . The yearlings were bought to prepare for the RTRs , the buyers only paid interest until horse sale , then acct cleared when sold . Know of a few who's horses didn't sell and left with large bills to clear .

NZB just clipping the ticket at every step .

[nomates]

1 hour ago, Reefton said:

Not sure how good you understanding is of Te Akau but unless you are in Ellis' very close team I doubt you know for sure what his financing arrangements are.  He possibly covers it himself with banking arrangements(but I emphasis again that is none of my business or my concern)

 

As with any business if you are top of the tree business works differently for you , TA have years of experience doing this so i'm sure NZB have a great deal of trust in TA's ability to sell horses .

[Reefton]

Just now, nomates said:

As with any business if you are top of the tree business works differently for you , TA have years of experience doing this so i'm sure NZB have a great deal of trust in TA's ability to sell horses .

indeed

[Reefton]

6 minutes ago, nomates said:

This is very much so , probably not so many now but plenty used to buy yearlings on tick with NZB , they do have a financing division . The yearlings were bought to prepare for the RTRs , the buyers only paid interest until horse sale , then acct cleared when sold . Know of a few who's horses didn't sell and left with large bills to clear .

NZB just clipping the ticket at every step .

exactly

I know of at least one left to carry the can when horses didn't sell.  Risky business especially when the economy turns agin you

[Reefton]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

@Joe Bloggs 40 years ago everyone was at not just the horse industry.  Hell @Reefton can attest to that having first hand knowledge of some of the rorts that were going on on the West Coast.  Is there still a three story building in Hokitika built on the back of an Accounting Firms sharemarket rort?

Suggest you get up to date.

I said it wasn't just the horse industry but in the horse industry you had the opportunity to buy a mare for a hundred quid in the UK using a Bahamas registered company then sell it for a million to an unsuspecting limited partnership shareholder in little old NZ.  Pay no tax in the Bahamas on the profit and Bob's ya uncle!

I know there were rorts here too in the gold mining and farming games but they were not as spectacular as some of them sharpie lawyers in Auckland and Sydney were getting up to.

[Reefton]

4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

@Joe Bloggs 40 years ago everyone was at not just the horse industry.  Hell @Reefton can attest to that having first hand knowledge of some of the rorts that were going on on the West Coast.  Is there still a three story building in Hokitika built on the back of an Accounting Firms sharemarket rort?

Suggest you get up to date.

think it is a six story building not a three. 

[Tesio]

$125 per day……what is he smoking. If that happens NZB better get a few more planes as every 2nd horse in NZ would be moved to Aus to race.

[nomates]

30 minutes ago, Tesio said:

$125 per day……what is he smoking. If that happens NZB better get a few more planes as every 2nd horse in NZ would be moved to Aus to race.

They already are , not just being sold , anything that is rated is being xfered to an Aus stable . The pony races are getting closer .

[billy connolly]

15 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

NZ Bloodstock don't offer Te Akau any better payment terms than any of their other major customers.  Payment in full within 30 days.

I'm guessing payment within 30 days would require a substantial overdraft facility, 30 weeks seems more likely.

 

15 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Te Akau uses the same model as Waller, Maher, Waterhouse and others in OZ.

Maher, is he/she a relative of one Brian James Maher, the disgraced former Queensland car salesman come billionaire entrepreneur who spent millions of his ill-gotten gains on bloodstock both here and Australia during the late 1970's early 80's ?

[Gospel of Judas]

12 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Anyway back to the Topic.

Spreadsheet attached showing the cost per employee were derived.

NZ Thoroughbred Training Fees.xlsx 12.85 kB · 7 downloads

3% for employer Kiwisaver!

[Chief Stipe]

7 hours ago, billy connolly said:

I'm guessing payment within 30 days would require a substantial overdraft facility, 30 weeks seems more likely.

So basically you are only guessing.  At the end of the day I'm sure Te Akau's model of operation is not without some risk.

To date their yearling syndicates have been over subscribed.

So they have a proven and attractive product to sell.

The reality is if Te Akau pack up and leave or one day struggle to syndicate their horses then the industry will be well and truly stuffed.

[mikeynz]

On 5/31/2022 at 9:14 AM, mikeynz said:

Based on those figures/cost it would be fair to assume that people on the minimum wage may not be getting into horse ownership in the present economic climate.

Maybe people on the minimum wage or those on a benefit who are interested but cant afford horse ownership could help the racing industry in other ways.

Maybe a grant perhaps of $10 000 a week paid in to a TAB account weekly on top of their benefit or a grant if they are working that has to be turned over before the next grant,the only catch is its only on NZ racing except for Australian racing on saturday afternoons after 3 15 pm.

[Newmarket]

$875 per week. 
 

Ha Ha, all those battling nags going around each week in NZ for piss poor stake money, who i their right mind would race a horse in NZ? 
 

Best to get involved in Aussie ownership, may cost a bit more, but far more professional. Huge stakes, better trainers, better jockeys, better everything, I shudder to look at the donkeys racing today, honest trainers would have sacked most way back.

[KickintheKods]

I've enjoyed reading this thread. Some excellent comments and a lot of accurate reality regarding the current NZ situation.

I've stated on here a couple of times that I won't race a horse in NZ again. I love breeding them here though. The minerals in our soil are "GOLD". Our mares thrive here and deliver foals that blossom and mature, under the watchful eyes of world class horse men and woman, who understand what it takes to nurture and teach.

We are so blessed to have this equine environment.

Quite frankly, I couldn't give a flying fig what it costs to get my youngsters ready to go to trial. It's part of the business planning of getting a horse to the races. I have a rising 2YO gelding who has just finished an 8 week session with a quality breaker in the Hawkes Bay. The cost was around $4500 including farrier, vet and transport to and from the Waikato.  Sometime before Xmas, it will cost me another $6500 to put him on a plane to Sydney and then 10 weeks of training and fingers crossed he might, just might, make it to a country Monday meeting at Goulburn where the prize money is a bloody site more than a maiden race here in Taupo. That's a lot of beer money to invest but do I enjoy it. Absobloodylutely. 

His younger full brother will follow the same pattern next year and my mare is booked this season to an exciting new stallion - exciting times - it's what I love and enjoy being a part of.

On the other hand, Petone is full of fat, lazy, overpaid, under achieving flatheads, many of whom have had anything to do with racing before they joined. As a result our racing industry is Donald ducked. 

As someone once said "Why is it that stupid people are so full of confidence".

Now, how long to the first at Eagle Farm?

[Newmarket]

Sadly a horse fell at Ruakaka Race 3, this is normal for NZ racing. 

Australia will have hundreds of races today, will hardly have any fallen runners. Amateur NZ racing