nomates

Joe , don't you dare stop , you give us a different perspective , and there can never too many of those . Cheers

Your easily pleased Greg , and easily lead . The moaners don't want to be just hanging on by the skin of their teeth , they want to see a cohesive plan that takes the industry upwards towards stability and then progression . The $11.5 mil multiplied by the 12 months will still leave a shortfall on what has been paid to the industry in previous seasons . That's not progression . One small bump and the shit hits the fan . The forever party man .

Think you scored Greg a bit high there Mikie , points off for being a party man .

Are the number that great , maybe if we are happy to stay on a boat that has a few leaks that we are stuck with with no chance of an upgrade . These numbers still leave us at the mercy of any small hiccup . I'll start getting excited when i see figures that show the industry is starting to bloom and things are on the up , these numbers are far , far away from what is required to start digging us out of this hole . But wait , the A/W's are on their way , the saving grace .

He can't reply to that one Huey , he's not part of the industry . Tried it once , got a bit wet for him so twaddled off to try harness . Obviously people in the harness industry aren't so worried about about the lack of radio coverage , but then i'm not even sure Greg is what you would call part of the harness industry , just sitting on the sidelines trying to show he's relevant .

The only thing you have got right so far , doesn't make it the correct decision , so don't go busting your arm giving yourself a pat on the back . No sure you don't , you just happen to be on board with everything they have done , maybe that's because you cant come up with any ideas of your own that would help progress the industry forward , just follow the leader . The perfect party man , as i said .

As ever Greg , following the party line . Maybe , just maybe , the figures could have been much larger with radio coverage .

All i want to see is the figures that show that these tracks will produce the huge financial upturn for NZ racing that is required to secure the future . Why else would the industry (clubs) invest upwards of $20million . A large proportion borrowed . And NZTR underwrite the investment . Surely nobody would do these things without a sound fiscal position that shows that they will be a complete winner for the industry . The last time someone gambled with industry funds , the glitzy TAB site , we were all but bankrupted . No Govt will bail us out again . Nothing else matters , it's all about the money . So please show me the figures , someone , anyone .

Be nice if they had at least put a small mention in the additional attributes , that an interest and some knowledge of horse racing would be helpful in performing the job . Why does it not surprise me that it is not mentioned . Continually following the same path will keep taking you to the same destination .

Because they are so desperate to have this track they don't want people to know just how fragile this whole proposal is . But they don't get that their lack of transparency is the biggest white flag , give people the respect of full disclosure and they more are inclined to participate with a more positive attitude . Unfortunately years of this ingrained behaviour is tough to break . This is not a behaviour that happens only in racing tho .

If any sort of substandard feasibility study had been done they would already have a reasonable understanding of what the maintenance costs were going to be , a simple phone call to a club already utilizing one would give you a fair indication . No that one is too tough , but they can say that they are going to increase numbers trained there by double , that would be the biggest intangible of the lot for them to predict , but no they have that one down pat but we can't say , even roughly , what the maintenance costs will be . I'm calling bullshit on that on as well . And , if they happen to be correct about the increase in horse numbers , that 16 mtr wide A/W is going to feckin congested in a morning , you might end up getting pushed back to a 1pm slot .

So you have all these tracks at present but are all going to be replaced by one A/W track that is 16 mtrs wide . So how is the track going to be divvied up when you have gallops going , quiet paceworkers , faster paceworkers , uneducated horses trying to be educated all at the same time . I've seen regularly 4,or 5 different training tracks being used at any one time elsewhere and you appear to have 9 . Are you going to have to draw lots as to who works when and what type of work can be done . You might get a sleep in , if you get allotted the 11am slot .

Tim seems to know FA about FA , i wouldn't want him running my business . Where are they getting them from , trainers from outside Riccarton have made it clear , the A/W is a no goer for them . This just more gobbledy gook bullshit to enhance the proposal . Where did they get that figure from , it wasn't from asking owners and trainers . They have more spin than Charlotte's Web , and they are talking what the pig was rolling in . Maybe the resident trainers have committed to buying more horses to race themselves .

This is just a piss take , no one involved has any idea what the costs are . The blind leading the blind . A seemingly intelligent man , who clearly has a vested interest in this track going in , asks "what is going to happen with the track fees ? " , gets told they wont be increasing because of the new track , but doesn't think to ask the next obvious question "how are you going to fund the increased maintenance costs then ? ", so then at least he can assure his owners that they aren't going to pick up the tab . Is that because he doesn't care as long as the track goes in ? This is just a game of bullshit , bullshit and more bullshit .

They also have to factor in an annual amount that they have to accrue for when the track needs an up grade somewhere down the track , that also could be 50k + p.a.

Why would you go ahead with the A/W when there is clearly a lack of substantial support for it , a number of trainers are saying it is not required and are worried that it could have detrimental consequences for racing . Is this just administrators telling racing participants whats good for them , irrespective of the lack of support .

Some interesting points brought up in this article by southern trainers , the big one being why would they run their horses on an A/W when their horses haven't worked on it . So will that go for trainers based more locally as well . Is it going to be Riccarton horses supplying the vast majority of runners . Even M Pitman says he is hoping some of his horses will handle it . The sad bit is the suggestion that a lot of trainers might not stay in the game if the lower SI racing shrinks too much because of the A/W picking up too many of their dates .

Interesting read . http://www.theoptimist.site/riccartons-synthetic-track-debate-heats-up-as-roadshow-heads-south/

We keep starting afresh , been plenty of appointments that have given hope but time and again fail to deliver , the one constant in recent times has been the Australian connection . Where they go from here is anybody's guess . I'm about bottomed out by all the bullshit and as i said above the continual contraction of the heartland of racing , i never raced to get rich , along with many others , but the continual contempt of this great sport by so called leaders is despairing . I consider my self lucky i got to be involved thru one of the great periods of NZ racing 70's , 80's and 90's so can't complain , too much .

That is the problem we have , even whilst the industry is crying out for oxygen they are still throwing money at the absolute top , which is a very slim wedge in NZ racing . Still throwing 500k at karaka races , Derby still 1mil along with numerous other top tier races , which do not justify the money in these times . Would any of these races suffer in quality if the stake was reduced by 25% or the karaka races were left to fend for themselves , no they wouldn't . But at the same time whilst i applauded the application of starter payments what's the point when it's just taken from the winners purse , i genuinely get amazed at the stupidity of our management . Talk about robbing Peter to pay Paul . Maybe if they had reduced top end stakes all lower and middle tier races could have had a top up . The problem is now the top end of racing , the clubs and stakes etc , is just getting bigger and bigger in relation to the rest of the industry , it's like we are squeezing racing from the bottom up . Why is NZ rugby so strong , it's base product , why is English football so strong , it's base product , Australian racing the same . Why is it we think we can buck that trend . It's got to topple eventually if the base keeps getting thinner . The next 2-5 years i think will pretty much dictate if NZ racing can ever get out from under itself . It wont so long as we keep servicing the top end of each thread of our industry .

At every track i've been associated with the biggest trainer/s has called the shots on what happens to the tracks , their opinion was expressed very clearly , they trained the most horses , they were the most successful so they got the most say . Clubs committees were shit scared of them , scared they would move . So they got away with murder , i questioned plenty , wrote letters , got nowhere . I didn't have enough skin in the game . Well i can tell you that the majority of those people who had the big skin in the game are as much to blame for the demise of NZ racing as the administrators . They kept scoffing at the trough even as the lights were dimming , getting as much as they could before they went out for good . From what i've seen not much has changed , there are still people looking at their own patch only .

Unfortunately Joe the question i and others pose aren't just relevant around Riccarton or even The Cambridge and Awapuni tracks , they are bigger questions for NZTR . Why are they jumping into them without due diligence and a full and complete financial study about the track costs , as well as what prosperity or not they can achieve for NZ racing . They are playing with the future of NZ racing so they should have every base covered and have answers to every question , not to reply to questions , but to give themselves a surety that proceeding down this path is the correct decision . Aside from that , 2 of the clubs involved are proposing to take on huge debt to finance their share of the projects , one of these clubs is already up to their necks in debt . When they don't even know actual figures about maintenance costs and whether revenues can cover these costs , why would they place themselves into such a precarious position . Are members involved in these decisions . Do they have a cost for the track fees once these tracks are commissioned , to ensure that owners understand them and that they are prepared to pay them and nor remove their horses . Have the clubs talked to the owners that horses trained at their track . There is no comeback if these fail financially , we are broke , there will be no more handouts from govt . This is a huge gamble in my opinion , especially when there are other options that give us some surety . We need to be on a much sounder financial position before we start gambling on ideas that give no surety of reward . I dread if horses start getting injured or worse . This is a slippery slope .

What has skin in the game got to do with asking legitimate questions around a lack of transparency , the lack of a feasibility study , a lack of costings for installation but also ongoing maintenance and the upgrades . Questions around where is the projections for how these tracks will increase revenue for the betterment of NZ racing , because why else would you put in 3 A/W tracks around NZ if they are not going to be a significant revenue gatherer for racing . I am going to assume you wont respond to any of this , because it appears that you have no concern around whether this is a fiscally prudent investment for NZ racing , short or long term , for you this is all about what works for you , you have made statements to effect . For your information i have had skin in the game for nearly 40 years , 30 odd horses raced plus much more , so i am allowed to ask the hard questions , and have , still waiting for answers to most . And i am allowed to criticize as well . Never try to balance skin in the game against passion for the game , passion wins every time .

And this is where the overwhelming self interest comes in , if they upgraded the main course then the obvious thing to do is upgrade the training tracks . The lack of detail and costings along with future revenue projections are my biggest concern , if this becomes a cockup there could be no coming back . Mr Pitman has started a thread this morning asking Chief what his skin in the game is , long list of parts . What Mr Pitman and others like him don't get and don't want to get is that asking prudent questions around feasibility studies , financial costings and revenue projections doesn't require anything other than intelligence . Skin in the game , large or small is irrelevant , but in his world the more skin , the more right to a say and not have to answer questions . I asked him some serious questions last night but he chooses not to answer the big ones , just picks out the bits that suit his agenda .

Do you honestly believe the proposed cost of circa 16mil for 12 industry days is a prudent use of 16mil ?. Do you believe those 12 days being run on an A/W instead of another track is going to bring such an up turn in revenue as to make them a sound financial investment for the racing industry ?. In the short term and the long term future . When the added cost of daily maintenance and 3/5 yearly upgrades is added to the equation i suggest if this was a decision you had to make out of your own pocket you would shelve it . It makes no financial sense , and from what you yourself have stated they don't even have any final figures for the installation and on going maintenance costs . As an aside from having those figures the most important figures they should have available for analysis is those showing how they expect revenues to increase because of the instillation of the A/W tracks , to show that they are the way forward for the racing industry . But alas no , it appears it's all being done by the seat of their pants . I know you think we are just a bunch of stirrers but what i see are a group of passionate knowledgeable racing people asking some very prudent questions and as of the present moment being unable to get real answers . I personally don't want to see these tracks become a white elephant , and there is plenty of evidence that this is exactly what they could become , that becomes the final nail in the coffin for racing in NZ . Can i ask you one final question , what would you rather see at Riccarton , the A/W or the main track become a strathayr surface .