Riccarton All Weather Track - Q & A Forum 16 September 2020 - PLEASE READ.

[nomates]

QUESTION ?

Does anyone have any idea how much it would cost to rip up the track at RIccarton and put down a strathayr surface . Roughly .

Just out of sheer curiosity , would it cost substantially more to put this in place instead of a separate A/W track ?

I am confident which of the 2 is a sure winner .

[Chief Stipe]

11 minutes ago, nomates said:

QUESTION ?

Does anyone have any idea how much it would cost to rip up the track at RIccarton and put down a strathayr surface . Roughly .

Just out of sheer curiosity , would it cost substantially more to put this in place instead of a separate A/W track ?

I am confident which of the 2 is a sure winner .

Depends on how big you want the course to be.  Tighten the bends and keep the 1,200m straightish run and it would be less in my opinion.

I think the course circumference is 2400m.  Which is on the large side.

Moonee Valley is 1800m and has 4 corners!

What's more you would keep the racing close to those on course. 

[nomates]

So if it was going to cost the same with some realignment or maybe 2/3mil more then surely you go down that path , it seems they are very blinkered on the A/W's .

A strathayr gives punters confidence in the surface , it gives trainers the same . 

I'm not saying it's a certainty but i know which surface gives racing confidence going forward and gives us a chance to start growing our product . 

But i am 100% sure every body would be on board with this surface against the split we currently have .

[Chief Stipe]

1 minute ago, nomates said:

So if it was going to cost the same with some realignment or maybe 2/3mil more then surely you go down that path , it seems they are very blinkered on the A/W's .

A strathayr gives punters confidence in the surface , it gives trainers the same . 

I'm not saying it's a certainty but i know which surface gives racing confidence going forward and gives us a chance to start growing our product . 

But i am 100% sure every body would be on board with this surface against the split we currently have .

I agree 100%.  The grass track has issues and building another track isn't going to fix that.  So they will end up with a sand track that has significant yearly maintenance costs and a turf track that needs remedial work but no money to fix it.

Time for Pitty and Mills to grow a pair.

[nomates]

I would suggest that it's time for the racing industry to grow some balls , i think some serious self interest around the country has people blinkered to other possibilities , and stopped some serious questions being asked . 

I believe if they get this wrong then racing is done , there will be racing but it will be a shadow of the industry not as we knew it , but as we know it . 

We seemed to have jumped into this very quickly and with not a great deal of research into the pro's and con's , or a significant study of other options . 

The money for these tracks was chucked at us very quickly , as a vote getter , and accepted just as fast . 

My biggest concern is certain clubs taking on massive debt to take these tracks on when i know 1 of them at least is already in a deep hole , why would you keep digging when there is no guarantee of the returns matching the outlay .

[Reefton]

47 minutes ago, Newmarket said:

I will go initially, but once novelty wears off, it will be the same

Lets think about AWT racing at Riccarton and the spectator experience

Well two things - every time I go there it is invariably freezing cold with the nor-easter blowing straight into your face and secondly the main track is a long way away,  the 1200m start diabolically so and the all weather will be inside it so even further away.

Strikes me as a bloody good way to ensure nobody turns up on a regular basis.

If there was anyone at the CJC with an ounce of imagination they would realise it is in the wrong place and that there is a great opportunity to shift to a purpose built facility out west where the product will be so much more attractive to on course attendees(and in all probability to off course attendees as well for that matter)

But clearly there is not so I suspect they are going to deserve all they get.

 

[nomates]

55 minutes ago, Reefton said:

Lets think about AWT racing at Riccarton and the spectator experience

Well two things - every time I go there it is invariably freezing cold with the nor-easter blowing straight into your face and secondly the main track is a long way away,  the 1200m start diabolically so and the all weather will be inside it so even further away.

Strikes me as a bloody good way to ensure nobody turns up on a regular basis.

If there was anyone at the CJC with an ounce of imagination they would realise it is in the wrong place and that there is a great opportunity to shift to a purpose built facility out west where the product will be so much more attractive to on course attendees(and in all probability to off course attendees as well for that matter)

But clearly there is not so I suspect they are going to deserve all they get.

 

I agree , whilst we're at it , it is time Trentham went the same way and no reason Ellerslie can't join them . 

We need to look to the future , and i mean 10/20 years from now . The above tracks are all tracks i love to bet at , and grew up at Trentham , love the place , but it's best days are gone , we have to plan for the future . 

Bar the odd big day none of these tracks attract regular big crowds , the days when they did have gone , they were in the city because everyone went to the races , but these days city slickers have deserted racing , far too many other things to do now .

So if we are planning for the future then we need tracks that serve purpose , that have top quality surfaces that handle all weather conditions with top class facilities that make people want to go more , that are located where the horse populations are close at hand and that give easy access to both transport and punters .

Currently nearly all of our main tracks are hemmed into their cities , and no longer relevant to their populations , yet 2 of the A/W's are being shoehorned into 2 of these tracks . Is this really looking to the future ?

Because of their locations they would finance , relevant and made for purpose tracks for all 3 locations .

And in doing so future proof racing .

At present all we are doing is shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic with no real sense of a plan , more of a hit and hope . 

It's time for some real leadership aligned with a vision for the future that gives people a sense of purpose to remain a part of the industry along with giving interested people some confidence that getting involved in racing that can be done positively .

There will people who will be staunchly against the above and that's fine , but don't just poo poo it , give solutions . Change and major change has to happen , that means plans being put in place , plans made with consultation of industry participants , plans that are going to help racing get back on a stable footing and give a sense that things are going to improve .

[Reefton]

7 minutes ago, nomates said:

I agree , whilst we're at it , it is time Trentham went the same way and no reason Ellerslie can't join them . 

We need to look to the future , and i mean 10/20 years from now . The above tracks are all tracks i love to bet at , and grew up at Trentham , love the place , but it's best days are gone , we have to plan for the future . 

Bar the odd big day none of these tracks attract regular big crowds , the days when they did have gone , they were in the city because everyone went to the races , but these days city slickers have deserted racing , far too many other things to do now .

So if we are planning for the future then we need tracks that serve purpose , that have top quality surfaces that handle all weather conditions with top class facilities that make people want to go more , that are located where the horse populations are close at hand and that give easy access to both transport and punters .

Currently nearly all of our main tracks are hemmed into their cities , and no longer relevant to their populations , yet 2 of the A/W's are being shoehorned into 2 of these tracks . Is this really looking to the future ?

Because of their locations they would finance , relevant and made for purpose tracks for all 3 locations .

And in doing so future proof racing .

At present all we are doing is shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic with no real sense of a plan , more of a hit and hope . 

It's time for some real leadership aligned with a vision for the future that gives people a sense of purpose to remain a part of the industry along with giving interested people some confidence that getting involved in racing that can be done positively .

There will people who will be staunchly against the above and that's fine , but don't just poo poo it , give solutions . Change and major change has to happen , that means plans being put in place , plans made with consultation of industry participants , plans that are going to help racing get back on a stable footing and give a sense that things are going to improve .

And they are all worth hundred of millions(if not billions) of dollars which is money the game could unlock, invest and use the profits to get the industry absolutely flying. 

You get a million bucks plus a week being paid in stakes in NZ Racing and watch the devotees multiply. 

Simple economics to me but I seem to be the only one who can see it

 

[nomates]

13 minutes ago, Reefton said:

Simple economics to me but I seem to be the only one who can see it

 

No there is two of us .

It will come down to whether we ever get leadership strong enough to promote something like this and an industry with real will for dramatic change .

I personally don't believe anything significant will ever get done , too many people happy to live within the world that is . 

19 minutes ago, Reefton said:

And they are all worth hundred of millions(if not billions) of dollars which is money the game could unlock,

They believe they are going to unlock it by selling Winton and Waipuk and others like it . 

We will be considered heretics for even suggesting the selling off of the crown jewels . 

[Reefton]

6 minutes ago, nomates said:

No there is two of us .

It will come down to whether we ever get leadership strong enough to promote something like this and an industry with real will for dramatic change .

I personally don't believe anything significant will ever get done , too many people happy to live within the world that is . 

They believe they are going to unlock it by selling Winton and Waipuk and others like it . 

We will be considered heretics for even suggesting the selling off of the crown jewels . 

Exactly - sell off Waipuk and Winton, pour the lot into Riccarton and Ellerslie then in five years when they are in the financial shit again line some other poor bastard's venue up to be sold off.

Wonderful innovative thinking really - what's that saying about making the same mistake over and over and over again and thinking each time you are going to solve the problem?

[nomates]

28 minutes ago, Reefton said:

Exactly - sell off Waipuk and Winton, pour the lot into Riccarton and Ellerslie then in five years when they are in the financial shit again line some other poor bastard's venue up to be sold off.

Wonderful innovative thinking really - what's that saying about making the same mistake over and over and over again and thinking each time you are going to solve the problem?

It shows that the leadership is lacking the vision and the courage to realize that they are making the same mistake , but saying that , the senior participants in the industry , who could help force change , don't see it either or they also lack the courage to speak up .

[Freda]

Yep, good points.  A Strathayr would be fantastic,  agree wholeheartedly,  but many trainers want an allweather because they will be have a better surface for winter training.

That's a pretty short-sighted basis for supporting such expenditure, when, as said above, a bit of vision and go-forward could make such a difference.

[Freda]

1 hour ago, nomates said:

No there is two of us .     

 

 

Three - four counting the Chief.

Edited September 3, 2020 by Freda

[nomates]

1 minute ago, Freda said:

Yep, good points.  A Strathayr would be fantastic,  agree wholeheartedly,  but many trainers want an allweather because they will be have a better surface for winter training.

That's a pretty short-sighted basis for supporting such expenditure, when, as said above, a bit of vision and go-forward could make such a difference.

Racing has been plagued by self interest for long as racing has been going , a hard disease to beat .

[Huey]

1 hour ago, nomates said:

Racing has been plagued by self interest for long as racing has been going , a hard disease to beat .

Unfortunately its a disease that can't be beat when it comes to NZ racing, imo its the disease that will end it all.

Industry participants need to see the bigger picture with everyones participation in mind, that's never going to be the case when the governing body have such an insular bias view. 

[nomates]

28 minutes ago, Huey said:

Unfortunately its a disease that can't be beat when it comes to NZ racing, imo its the disease that will end it all.

Industry participants need to see the bigger picture with everyones participation in mind, that's never going to be the case when the governing body have such an insular bias view. 

Self interest is what stops people participating and asking the hard questions , especially those in a position in the industry to ask the hard questions and be respected for having asked them , they don't want to rock the boat and risk , how ever minimal , the position they may have achieved .

You only have to look at the number of high profile trainers over the last year who have made comment regarding stakes in the industry , they have all basically come out with the same homogenized comment , that stakes aren't good enough and things must improve , which in itself is something , i suppose , but then no one has said anymore or got more demanding of answers . It's as if at least they have been seen to be saying their bit , no more tho . Maybe when it really starts to bite their arse they may get more strident .

The governing body is very pleased , they know they are getting off lightly .

 

[Joe Bloggs]

3 hours ago, Reefton said:

And they are all worth hundred of millions(if not billions) of dollars which is money the game could unlock, invest and use the profits to get the industry absolutely flying. 

You get a million bucks plus a week being paid in stakes in NZ Racing and watch the devotees multiply. 

Simple economics to me but I seem to be the only one who can see it

 

Yeah, but you're a businessman, they're not. They'll draw salaries for the rest of their lives, take no risks and slink off with a great super payout.......and give a toss? no chance of that.

[Joe Bloggs]

11 minutes ago, nomates said:

Self interest is what stops people participating and asking the hard questions , especially those in a position in the industry to ask the hard questions and be respected for having asked them , they don't want to rock the boat and risk , how ever minimal , the position they may have achieved .

You only have to look at the number of high profile trainers over the last year who have made comment regarding stakes in the industry , they have all basically come out with the same homogenized comment , that stakes aren't good enough and things must improve , which in itself is something , i suppose , but then no one has said anymore or got more demanding of answers . It's as if at least they have been seen to be saying their bit , no more tho . Maybe when it really starts to bite their arse they may get more strident .

The governing body is very pleased , they know they are getting off lightly .

 

You're usually spot on, but can I just add, for revenue to increase which of course should drive stake rises, the punter has to have confidence in the product and from where I  sit my major concern is integrity.

The lack of pre race testing is abominable and as it's no secret there is bugger all money, who in their right mind invests/wagers on a gaming product where you have no idea if the horse you have backed is clean? How do we know they are processing the post race swabs of winners? I don't trust them, do you?.......when you're broke you'll do anything to survive, think about it.

The TCO2 testing at the gallops there is practically non-existent, so if someone is inclined to cheat and milkshake or mask, then it's open slather isn't it?

I know several punting Whales that used to play the NZ racing market regularly, now it's a no go zone, the investments on NZ racing on the TAB in Oz have been woeful, 1600 bucks in the win pool on R1 at Otaki today, the place pool was a joke.......it's a sign, they will only be able to pay stakes by borrowing again, and from who and what goes up as collateral? maybe a racecourse or two.

In any other industry people would be behind bars.......it's a sick joke and I'm pissed...as in angry, nothing will change and that's a culture problem....sorry to say.

[Reefton]

1 hour ago, Joe Bloggs said:

You're usually spot on, but can I just add, for revenue to increase which of course should drive stake rises, the punter has to have confidence in the product and from where I  sit my major concern is integrity.

The lack of pre race testing is abominable and as it's no secret there is bugger all money, who in their right mind invests/wagers on a gaming product where you have no idea if the horse you have backed is clean? How do we know they are processing the post race swabs of winners? I don't trust them, do you?.......when you're broke you'll do anything to survive, think about it.

The TCO2 testing at the gallops there is practically non-existent, so if someone is inclined to cheat and milkshake or mask, then it's open slather isn't it?

I know several punting Whales that used to play the NZ racing market regularly, now it's a no go zone, the investments on NZ racing on the TAB in Oz have been woeful, 1600 bucks in the win pool on R1 at Otaki today, the place pool was a joke.......it's a sign, they will only be able to pay stakes by borrowing again, and from who and what goes up as collateral? maybe a racecourse or two.

In any other industry people would be behind bars.......it's a sick joke and I'm pissed...as in angry, nothing will change and that's a culture problem....sorry to say.

Fair comment re the pre race swabbing though maybe capacity constraints would preclude that.  And I would be pretty disappointed if the post race swabs are not being processed properly - that is just somethng we presume of course(and I guess to be fair presuming can be dangerous - like Jacinda and co presumed there was border and quarantine testing0

Re growing revenue and stakes that is the point of realising these exceptionally valuable assets - use the investment income to support the stakes and the punter especially offshore will start to take notice, start punting and the snowball effect will be seen.  Just takes a VERY brave  administration to attack the poor performing parties in the industry not the easy targets(the smaller clubs with enthusiasm as their major asset and a realistic view of their place in the scheme of things).

PLUS of course you get Stipes and Judiciary who DEMAND respect(rather than being like a circus sideshow), appropriate surfaces, quality facilities and good and improving fortune will inevitably follow.  The lesser Clubs end up in a country circuit and look after the 'picnic meeting' aspect.  AND since it is clear that the TAB doesn't  want to know the industry  throw the provision of gambling services open to all comers.

[Huey]

8 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said:

You're usually spot on, but can I just add, for revenue to increase which of course should drive stake rises, the punter has to have confidence in the product and from where I  sit my major concern is integrity.

The lack of pre race testing is abominable and as it's no secret there is bugger all money, who in their right mind invests/wagers on a gaming product where you have no idea if the horse you have backed is clean? How do we know they are processing the post race swabs of winners? I don't trust them, do you?.......when you're broke you'll do anything to survive, think about it.

The TCO2 testing at the gallops there is practically non-existent, so if someone is inclined to cheat and milkshake or mask, then it's open slather isn't it?

I know several punting Whales that used to play the NZ racing market regularly, now it's a no go zone, the investments on NZ racing on the TAB in Oz have been woeful, 1600 bucks in the win pool on R1 at Otaki today, the place pool was a joke.......it's a sign, they will only be able to pay stakes by borrowing again, and from who and what goes up as collateral? maybe a racecourse or two.

In any other industry people would be behind bars.......it's a sick joke and I'm pissed...as in angry, nothing will change and that's a culture problem....sorry to say.

I see your point, but I'm not sure it would matter much doping horses through the NZ winter given the surfaces we have to run on. But certainly those bigger spring/summer days who knows what goes on.

[Huey]

7 hours ago, Reefton said:

Fair comment re the pre race swabbing though maybe capacity constraints would preclude that.  And I would be pretty disappointed if the post race swabs are not being processed properly - that is just somethng we presume of course(and I guess to be fair presuming can be dangerous - like Jacinda and co presumed there was border and quarantine testing0

Re growing revenue and stakes that is the point of realising these exceptionally valuable assets - use the investment income to support the stakes and the punter especially offshore will start to take notice, start punting and the snowball effect will be seen.  Just takes a VERY brave  administration to attack the poor performing parties in the industry not the easy targets(the smaller clubs with enthusiasm as their major asset and a realistic view of their place in the scheme of things).

PLUS of course you get Stipes and Judiciary who DEMAND respect(rather than being like a circus sideshow), appropriate surfaces, quality facilities and good and improving fortune will inevitably follow.  The lesser Clubs end up in a country circuit and look after the 'picnic meeting' aspect.  AND since it is clear that the TAB doesn't  want to know the industry  throw the provision of gambling services open to all comers.

And therein lies the problem , a large part of the industry doesn't understand its irrelevance in the grand scheme of things. 

I'm a firm believer the industry could be saved if it accepted its position and rebuilt from there , but it won't happen as many have said on here too much self interest for that to happen, you only have to look at this AWT situation to realise that.

Really if they were that good Aus. would run 90% of their meetings on them and its a lot of money to spend just to buy Pitman a training track.

[Freda]

Yes,   V'Landys won't hear of synthetic racing in NSW  although there are some for training on....therein should tell the tale, looking at the relative bouyancy of the state regime.

[Freda]

..and RV has decided that two are sufficient in their state, given maintenance costs, etc.  And we think we can manage three?

[Chief Stipe]

28 minutes ago, Freda said:

..and RV has decided that two are sufficient in their state, given maintenance costs, etc.  And we think we can manage three?

Yes and they have even closed one down - Geelong.

[Newmarket]

What worries me in this thread, it is mainly trainers, owners or followers of racing commenting. 
 

You do know the success of racing is gamblers, look at sky city auck, still made profit in lockdown with online gambling? 
 

I hear zero, nothing, zilch how nz is going to get punters betting more with the tab. They are more worried about blocking nz punters betting elsewhere, which we know will never happen. Why, we all know that more turnover with the nz tab comes from outside nz, than within, so they will be worse off, that is the reason it has not been done yet. 
 

They have done everything they can to drive punters away, and they continue to do it. 

Its a sad time, but the future looks bleak