Boxing Day - Ellerslie v Westport Trots

[Reefton]

Anyone know what the Ellerslie Oncourse was on Boxing Day?

Because I just read in the local rag that Westport did $220k which for a town of 4000 equates to $55 for every man woman and child.  If Ellerslie wants to justify it's favoured treatment surely it must have turned over $71m or so oncourse? 

I have just got Cameron and Bernard's new year message and while it may be unpalatable here is mine to them.  Stop subsidising and giving all the sweet treatment to the lame ducks of the industry, the incompetent, the over staffed and under performing.  Let them  stand on their own two feet and justify their existence instead of robbing the rest of the industry.  Sell up the overrated dump(now you have the power under the new Act) and invest the funds where it will return to the industry vastly more than the useless ARC with all its wanky wannabe behaviour is capable of.  Ditto most of the other Metropolitan Clubs including Te Rapa, Awapuni, Trentham and Riccarton.  Show some real leadership and make some hard hard calls.

[mikeynz]

1 hour ago, Reefton said:

Anyone know what the Ellerslie Oncourse was on Boxing Day?

Because I just read in the local rag that Westport did $220k which for a town of 4000 equates to $55 for every man woman and child.  If Ellerslie wants to justify it's favoured treatment surely it must have turned over $71m or so oncourse? 

I have just got Cameron and Bernard's new year message and while it may be unpalatable here is mine to them.  Stop subsidising and giving all the sweet treatment to the lame ducks of the industry, the incompetent, the over staffed and under performing.  Let them  stand on their own two feet and justify their existence instead of robbing the rest of the industry.  Sell up the overrated dump(now you have the power under the new Act) and invest the funds where it will return to the industry vastly more than the useless ARC with all its wanky wannabe behaviour is capable of.  Ditto most of the other Metropolitan Clubs including Te Rapa, Awapuni, Trentham and Riccarton.  Show some real leadership and make some hard hard calls.

Gee boxing day popular,better have a meet at addington instead of the coast,they can shift to a thursday in early july,much smarter😁

[Delta Bro]

Don't know what the oncourse turnover was but the once a year racegoers spent up big on booze. The queues at the bars were 40+ deep. I can't understand what makes people so desperate for a Corona. The public grandstand was packed and the roar of the crowd at the end of the races was deafening. After 4.00 pm the queues at the bars and betting windows vanished. Maybe a lot went home. The ARC had its day in the sun. So should every other Club.

[mikeynz]

I actually watched the odd race and while I'm no fan of Auckland the stakes on offer matched the quality of the racing,no doubt about it but it doesn't detract how significant all the little clubs in the smaller places racing and how important their place in the scheme of things are too,it's not all about a few bigwigs clubs,in many ways the poorest attenders of sporting events and racing is included is actually Auckland,for the population the turnouts sometimes are very poor

[Huey]

4 hours ago, Reefton said:

Anyone know what the Ellerslie Oncourse was on Boxing Day?

Because I just read in the local rag that Westport did $220k which for a town of 4000 equates to $55 for every man woman and child.  If Ellerslie wants to justify it's favoured treatment surely it must have turned over $71m or so oncourse? 

I have just got Cameron and Bernard's new year message and while it may be unpalatable here is mine to them.  Stop subsidising and giving all the sweet treatment to the lame ducks of the industry, the incompetent, the over staffed and under performing.  Let them  stand on their own two feet and justify their existence instead of robbing the rest of the industry.  Sell up the overrated dump(now you have the power under the new Act) and invest the funds where it will return to the industry vastly more than the useless ARC with all its wanky wannabe behaviour is capable of.  Ditto most of the other Metropolitan Clubs including Te Rapa, Awapuni, Trentham and Riccarton.  Show some real leadership and make some hard hard calls.

Exactly ! If someone  doesn't the industry is a dead duck!

[Reefton]

6 hours ago, mikeynz said:

I actually watched the odd race and while I'm no fan of Auckland the stakes on offer matched the quality of the racing,no doubt about it but it doesn't detract how significant all the little clubs in the smaller places racing and how important their place in the scheme of things are too,it's not all about a few bigwigs clubs,in many ways the poorest attenders of sporting events and racing is included is actually Auckland,for the population the turnouts sometimes are very poor

Fair comment re the quality of the racing but lets look at the off course and the return on industry funds expended.  I haven't bothered (and can't be bothered) adding up the stakes paid but I imagine that Ellerslie paid out $700k in stakes versus Westport's maybe $130k.  Westport turned over $1.7m off course so if the quality was proportionately attractive Ellerslie ought to have turned over $9m or thereabouts. I doubt that is the case. 

The bottom line is that the industry is still living beyond its means and, in stakes terms at least, there is a huge imbalance between the payout and the return on these 'big' days.  Just because David Ellis,Peter Vela and the NZ Breeding industry want big stakes to line their pockets(Good luck to them they have invested a lot) does not mean the industry can afford it and as far as days like Boxing Day at Auckland being the 'shopfront' of NZ racing well you could justify that if they had 140000 on course not 14000.

[Freda]

8 hours ago, Delta Bro said:

 The ARC had its day in the sun. So should every other Club.

Agree...but not at the expense of other clubs/industry participants.

[Tesio]

4 hours ago, Reefton said:

Fair comment re the quality of the racing but lets look at the off course and the return on industry funds expended.  I haven't bothered (and can't be bothered) adding up the stakes paid but I imagine that Ellerslie paid out $700k in stakes versus Westport's maybe $130k.  Westport turned over $1.7m off course so if the quality was proportionately attractive Ellerslie ought to have turned over $9m or thereabouts. I doubt that is the case. 

The bottom line is that the industry is still living beyond its means and, in stakes terms at least, there is a huge imbalance between the payout and the return on these 'big' days.  Just because David Ellis,Peter Vela and the NZ Breeding industry want big stakes to line their pockets(Good luck to them they have invested a lot) does not mean the industry can afford it and as far as days like Boxing Day at Auckland being the 'shopfront' of NZ racing well you could justify that if they had 140000 on course not 14000.

Reefton, you just cant accept the industry needs big feature days to survive. Yes they may not pay their way (but i guess that’s what sports betting profit helps with)  but without them what do we have.

[Huey]

15 minutes ago, Tesio said:

Reefton, you just cant accept the industry needs big feature days to survive. Yes they may not pay their way (but i guess that’s what sports betting profit helps with)  but without them what do we have.

How do you have them without the smaller venues and smaller days to prop them up? Those days don't just magically happen and its not just the funding around it that is of concern its all the preparation and participation that comes from other parts of the industry. 

Who supports the industry throughout the rest of the season after Boxing Day,NY Day and Karaka Million have been and gone?

Most things in life build their base then get the top part right, look at Aus for an example. In NZ we look for short cuts that are unsustainable and we allow ourselves to be run by leaders who have no idea how they industry actually works.

[Freda]

16 minutes ago, Tesio said:

Reefton, you just cant accept the industry needs big feature days to survive. Yes they may not pay their way (but i guess that’s what sports betting profit helps with)  but without them what do we have.

Good points, but you're both right.

Our industry is living so far beyond its means no raceday pays its way.  The smaller clubs lose less, that's all.

I dont think anyone realistically feels that the bigger days shouldn't exist, but the funding model we now have is unsustainable,  relying as it does on income from outside sources.

[curious]

Yes. I agree. You can have the feature days still of course but the stakes and costs of those events need to be aligned with what those days earn.

[Tesio]

18 minutes ago, Huey said:

How do you have them without the smaller venues and smaller days to prop them up? Those days don't just magically happen and its not just the funding around it that is of concern its all the preparation and participation that comes from other parts of the industry. 

Who supports the industry throughout the rest of the season after Boxing Day,NY Day and Karaka Million have been and gone?

Most things in life build their base then get the top part right, look at Aus for an example. In NZ we look for short cuts that are unsustainable and we allow ourselves to be run by leaders who have no idea how they industry actually works.

Yes agree Huey, we still need the base.....was just pointing out to Reefton we still need these big feature days also. Reefton seems to  dislike these big feature days, which we still need also.

 

[Chief Stipe]

8 hours ago, Tesio said:

Yes agree Huey, we still need the base.....was just pointing out to Reefton we still need these big feature days also. Reefton seems to  dislike these big feature days, which we still need also.

Do we actually need "these big feature days"?  Or should it be "can we afford these big feature days"?  Reefton doesn't dislike these big feature days what he dislikes is subsidising them.  Given the comparative difference in assets between Ellerslie and Reefton and the difference in industry assistance over the years why can't Ellerslie support itself?  Instead of relying on cross subsidisation from other parts of the industry?

Nero fiddles while Rome burns - that's what springs to mind when I see a big feature day at Ellerslie.  Meanwhile the lesser amongst us are being taxed more to fund Nero and his entourage.  What's more our assets are in the process of being grabbed to keep funding the largesse rather than addressing the fundamental problems.  Two $1 million races (Karaka Millions) may sound great but why does the industry need to fund half?  Why not double the cost of the sweepstake entry instead of sucking money from elsewhere?

Why do we need two tier's of stakes?  If you halved our top Grp race stakes would the fields be any less in quality?  Well you might say if they weren't that then more horses would go to Australia to race.  I doubt it as the majority of our Grp horses aren't good enough to compete at Grp level in OZ.  

[Tesio]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

If you halved our top Grp race stakes would the fields be any less in quality?  Well you might say if they weren't that then more horses would go to Australia to race.  I doubt it as the majority of our Grp horses aren't good enough to compete at Grp level in OZ.  

I for one would stop racing horses in nz and all would go to Aus. I think the planes would be flying overtime transferring horses across the ditch. They may not be good enough for Grp Oz, but city class would become the target for many NZ horses i would think.

[Chief Stipe]

16 minutes ago, Tesio said:

They may not be good enough for Grp Oz, but city class would become the target for many NZ horses i would think

Seriously how many of our horses are even up to that class?

[Reefton]

37 minutes ago, Tesio said:

I for one would stop racing horses in nz and all would go to Aus. I think the planes would be flying overtime transferring horses across the ditch. They may not be good enough for Grp Oz, but city class would become the target for many NZ horses i would think.

Yes and with the increased stakes comes an horrendous amount of cost.  I had a share in one that went over there three times, raced in the highest class(3 G1's including one against Winx), won an Aussie G2 and got sweet f a  paid out after costs.

Good luck but it ain't all wine and roses over there.

 

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Reefton

[Joe Bloggs]

2 hours ago, Reefton said:

Yes and with the increased stakes comes an horrendous amount of cost.  I had a share in one that went over there three times, raced in the highest class(3 G1's including one against Winx), won an Aussie G2 and got sweet f a  paid out after costs.

Good luck but it ain't all wine and roses over there.

 

 

You're spot on, it's bloody hard to win a maiden over here. There are so many horses going around with NZ beside their name and many still have their original Kiwi owners on-board.

Having said that, the Kiwi horse is tough, they have to be, the grass is greener and richer in NZ, the flies are not as ferocious as here, so young foals and weanlings get a better time of it, especially during summer, the 3 and 4yo's raised in NZ have a great advantage, but when they get here they could find themselves up against a field where the majority have gone through the ring for gazillions, a maiden at Newcastle for example can look like a blue ribbon sale ring with 2 or 3 million dollar horses in the betting.

Where I differ, I know first hand what some of the cartel trainers are charging up in the Kato to train your horse, a few are not far behind some of the leading Randwick and Caulfield trainers, the costs are way out of proportion in NZ will little subsidies.

Here the jock is paid, no acceptance fee, and you run 10th at Randwick on a SAT and you get K3500........K1000 at Newcastle on a SAT......the transport costs are cheaper here, way cheaper and yet the wages are much higher for a strapper. Young fella that strapped a horse for me recently took home nearly 1200 bucks for his weeks work and only did 2 racedays...the gouging in NZ is probably centred mainly up north, I can't see that MO in the CD and especially in the SI........not from my previous trainer in Chch, so it's a mentality thing, like provincialism in South Africa........anyway, for what it's worth,..... that's my take.

[wally]

16 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

You're spot on, it's bloody hard to win a maiden over here. There are so many horses going around with NZ beside their name and many still have their original Kiwi owners on-board.

Having said that, the Kiwi horse is tough, they have to be, the grass is greener and richer in NZ, the flies are not as ferocious as here, so young foals and weanlings get a better time of it, especially during summer, the 3 and 4yo's raised in NZ have a great advantage, but when they get here they could find themselves up against a field where the majority have gone through the ring for gazillions, a maiden at Newcastle for example can look like a blue ribbon sale ring with 2 or 3 million dollar horses in the betting.

Where I differ, I know first hand what some of the cartel trainers are charging up in the Kato to train your horse, a few are not far behind some of the leading Randwick and Caulfield trainers, the costs are way out of proportion in NZ will little subsidies.

Here the jock is paid, no acceptance fee, and you run 10th at Randwick on a SAT and you get K3500........K1000 at Newcastle on a SAT......the transport costs are cheaper here, way cheaper and yet the wages are much higher for a strapper. Young fella that strapped a horse for me recently took home nearly 1200 bucks for his weeks work and only did 2 racedays...the gouging in NZ is probably centred mainly up north, I can't see that MO in the CD and especially in the SI........not from my previous trainer in Chch, so it's a mentality thing, like provincialism in South Africa........anyway, for what it's worth,..... that's my take.

strapper 1200 dollars for 2  day work are you serious

[wally]

19 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

You're spot on, it's bloody hard to win a maiden over here. There are so many horses going around with NZ beside their name and many still have their original Kiwi owners on-board.

Having said that, the Kiwi horse is tough, they have to be, the grass is greener and richer in NZ, the flies are not as ferocious as here, so young foals and weanlings get a better time of it, especially during summer, the 3 and 4yo's raised in NZ have a great advantage, but when they get here they could find themselves up against a field where the majority have gone through the ring for gazillions, a maiden at Newcastle for example can look like a blue ribbon sale ring with 2 or 3 million dollar horses in the betting.

Where I differ, I know first hand what some of the cartel trainers are charging up in the Kato to train your horse, a few are not far behind some of the leading Randwick and Caulfield trainers, the costs are way out of proportion in NZ will little subsidies.

Here the jock is paid, no acceptance fee, and you run 10th at Randwick on a SAT and you get K3500........K1000 at Newcastle on a SAT......the transport costs are cheaper here, way cheaper and yet the wages are much higher for a strapper. Young fella that strapped a horse for me recently took home nearly 1200 bucks for his weeks work and only did 2 racedays...the gouging in NZ is probably centred mainly up north, I can't see that MO in the CD and especially in the SI........not from my previous trainer in Chch, so it's a mentality thing, like provincialism in South Africa........anyway, for what it's worth,..... that's my take.

what would the difference be say from te akau richards and say bussutin in aust trainers fees

[The Centaur]

On 29/12/2020 at 9:07 PM, Delta Bro said:

 After 4.00 pm the queues at the bars and betting windows vanished. Maybe a lot went home. The ARC had its day in the sun. So should every other Club.

Running the major races as say race 9 or 10 seems ridiculous. If as you say the patrons are retreating about 4.oopm then the answer is run the main race as race 5 or 6. THats what they did in the olden days and there was a reason.

[Huey]

12 hours ago, Reefton said:

Yes and with the increased stakes comes an horrendous amount of cost.  I had a share in one that went over there three times, raced in the highest class(3 G1's including one against Winx), won an Aussie G2 and got sweet f a  paid out after costs.

Good luck but it ain't all wine and roses over there.

 

 

Yes I love the solution everyone has of just sending them to Aus. as if they just turn up and win, the competition is probably need to the toughest in the world over there & it certainly isn't a given in just going over.

[Huey]

9 hours ago, The Centaur said:

Running the major races as say race 9 or 10 seems ridiculous. If as you say the patrons are retreating about 4.oopm then the answer is run the main race as race 5 or 6. THats what they did in the olden days and there was a reason.

agree and if youre like me , probably broke on the punt by race 8  ; 0

[Joe Bloggs]

10 hours ago, wally said:

what would the difference be say from te akau richards and say bussutin in aust trainers fees

Can't tell you to the dollar, but not much I'm guessing.

[Joe Bloggs]

Some of the leading country trainers charge less than 90 bucks a day, and cart your horses to Randwick or Eagle Farm in their own truck at subsidised rates, with the city trainers it's a case by case basis in many instances and the syndication fees can be over the top.

I know of a few name syndicators here that charge a percentage of prizemoney on top of their management fees, and that distorts the trainers announced fee. Some syndicators charge lunatic fees, and therefore attract lunatics.

What I will say is, there are some talented young people beginning their training careers charging well under the $100 per day mark and have top class city horses. The stale, pale, male trainers living in the past are charging way over that and watch as their old timer clients drop off the perch.

Feel for the emerging young Kiwi trainer. trying to carve out a niche for themselves with the current management of racing in NZ, I thought by now there would be an insurgency of Kiwi's with a horse in each hand here on the Gold Coast, but blood is thicker than water, it would be nice to see that loyalty rewarded by better prizemoney, incentives, travel subsidies and infrastructure being implemented in NZ and racing back where it belongs on the world stage.

As it stands, the pattern committee should strip NZ of their black type racing as there is no guarantee swabbing is Kosher, we know there is no pre=race swabbing, or very little and that should be mandatory.

 

[Tesio]

12 hours ago, wally said:

strapper 1200 dollars for 2  day work are you serious

Strapper gets a small % of winnings like the jock & Trainer