Are there signs of cracks in the Cambridge AWT training ranks?

[nomates]

1 hour ago, Pitman said:

I have stayed away from posting on this site for several weeks but can no longer sit back and not comment on some of the rubbish that is posted on here

My understanding is that Riccarton will run three feature race days next winter on the AWT including the middle day of the Grand National carnival Jump racing will still be on the turf

2022 race dates

April  Ricc 2/7

Ascot Park 3

Ashburton 6,

Riccarton 9, 23, 

Riverton 16, 18, 

Timaru 28

May Ricc 3/7

Wingatui 1st, 27

Riccarton 5, 7, 19, 

Riverton 11,

Ascot Park 15, 

June  Ricc 4/7

Riccarton 3, 16, 25, 30

Wingatui 5, 

Timaru 12,

Oamaru 23 

July  Ricc 2/5

Wingatui 3,

Ashburton 7

Riccarton 15, 29

Oamaru 24

Hope this puts you and others straight on race dates some of these will be feature days R65 stake and above $30,000 minimum

I will not lower myself but chief stop being the tosser I know you are and quoting me out of context preferably leave me out of it

Goodbye 

So looking at your dates there is 17 meetings over the May, June , July period in the SI , 9 at Riccarton , 6 of those are on the A/W the other 3 are on the course proper assuming none get xfered for weather related conditions . Of the other 8 meetings in the SI only 1 is close to CHCH , the other 7 are spread from Oamaru , Wingatui . Ascot Park and Riverton . We know from history as winter sets in the majority of horses for race meetings in the SI come from the Canterbury region so if you are in that region and you find that your horse/s doesn't handle the A/W then you only have one lower grade grass track meeting at Ashburton to race , so then those trainers have to travel , when in previous seasons they had plenty of opportunities  on their doorstep . Which in it's self is funny because one of the reasons NZTR has used for closing tracks was to save costs to owners , but obviously down there the owners are all pockets bulging with notes .

Now i am sure you will agree that the numbers racing drop substantially as winter sets in , do you really believe that the SI has the numbers to sustain that many A/W meetings , and if your not sure go and read NZTR meeting notes from through the last week where they had to can a Cambridge meeting because of insufficient numbers , so if Cambridge , the Southern Hemisphere's largest training facility and it's wider racing community can't sustain numbers for A/W racing what hope have you guys got .

I am not just poo pooing for the sake of it , this is straight numbers .

I look forward to your rebuttal , which i am sure you will have .

[KickintheKods]

26 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

He's good at all right, I was guilty of presumption as he told the press he was giving training away to concentrate on the stud, he doesn't have the runners he used to and Richard Litt has a number of their horses now. BTW, he proved his competence when travelling his horses, Dubai and Newmarket, a while ago now however Alverta looked amazing in the mounting yard at Newmarket, My missus waded in each way and got 15 quid the place, She would never have beaten SSB that day but young Messara proved he had the goods alright. If he chose to go training big time he would challenge all those numbers trainers and their concrete factories in town.....IMO.

Alverta at home was a prize madam. She was a beautiful type but as most of the top mares seem to have, she had that nasty streak. Her main minder was the fillies and mares foreman, a wonderful man by the name of Lewis Seib. Lewis had been a horseman for all his working life and he and Paul and Paul's foreman during those years, Barry (ex Colin and David Hayes) made a great team at bringing the best out of Alverta and Ortensia. The young lass who strapped them, came over from Perth, and is still there I believe. 

Lewis sadly passed away a year or two ago but his daughter Danielle, who spent all her time, when not at the local high school, helping at the stables. Danielle is now training herself on the South Coast.

[Pitman]

1 hour ago, nomates said:

So looking at your dates there is 17 meetings over the May, June , July period in the SI , 9 at Riccarton , 6 of those are on the A/W the other 3 are on the course proper assuming none get xfered for weather related conditions . Of the other 8 meetings in the SI only 1 is close to CHCH , the other 7 are spread from Oamaru , Wingatui . Ascot Park and Riverton . We know from history as winter sets in the majority of horses for race meetings in the SI come from the Canterbury region so if you are in that region and you find that your horse/s doesn't handle the A/W then you only have one lower grade grass track meeting at Ashburton to race , so then those trainers have to travel , when in previous seasons they had plenty of opportunities  on their doorstep . Which in it's self is funny because one of the reasons NZTR has used for closing tracks was to save costs to owners , but obviously down there the owners are all pockets bulging with notes .

Now i am sure you will agree that the numbers racing drop substantially as winter sets in , do you really believe that the SI has the numbers to sustain that many A/W meetings , and if your not sure go and read NZTR meeting notes from through the last week where they had to can a Cambridge meeting because of insufficient numbers , so if Cambridge , the Southern Hemisphere's largest training facility and it's wider racing community can't sustain numbers for A/W racing what hope have you guys got .

I am not just poo pooing for the sake of it , this is straight numbers .

I look forward to your rebuttal , which i am sure you will have .

There are 19 meetings in SI during May June and July not 17 as you suggest

13 Oamaru and North,  6 Wingatui South

You are correct in regards to Riccarton 6 on AWT,  3 on turf

Ashburton (1), Timaru (1) and Oamaru (2) are only day trips from Riccarton and North Canterbury

I have never said that the numbers are there, but what a great training and trials facility.

[Chief Stipe]

3 minutes ago, Pitman said:

I have never said that the numbers are there, but what a great training and trials facility.

No doubt but a high maintenance cost model.  You are now indicating based on the numbers that it will require subsidisation from elsewhere.  But there is less and less "elsewhere."

Certainly not enough to renovate and repair NZ' best turf track at Riccarton.

[nomates]

9 minutes ago, Pitman said:

I have never said that the numbers are there, but what a great training and trials facility.

That is a seriously disconcerting comment from one of NZ's leading trainers , possibly shows why the industry is in the perilous state it is in . 

[Huey]

39 minutes ago, nomates said:

That is a seriously disconcerting comment from one of NZ's leading trainers , possibly shows why the industry is in the perilous state it is in . 

My thoughts exactly, comments like that are a real concern and indeed the reason the industry is in the state it is in.

[nomates]

13 minutes ago, Huey said:

My thoughts exactly, comments like that are a real concern and indeed the reason the industry is in the state it is in.

It is such a blase self interested comment , but that is an attitude that is rife within NZ racing ranks , if it wasn't we would hear a lot more vocalization regarding the way things are sliding .

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, nomates said:

That is a seriously disconcerting comment from one of NZ's leading trainers , possibly shows why the industry is in the perilous state it is in . 

Be careful he will start calling you a tosser as well.

[Joe Bloggs]

10 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Be careful he will start calling you a tosser as well.

Or sending you pvt messages calling you much worse!

[nomates]

23 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Be careful he will start calling you a tosser as well.

Ha , been called a lot worse , throwing words like that around is a sign that a nerve is exposed . 

His above comment has just proven again that self interest is alive and as strong as ever in NZ racing 

[Pitman]

35 minutes ago, nomates said:

Ha , been called a lot worse , throwing words like that around is a sign that a nerve is exposed . 

His above comment has just proven again that self interest is alive and as strong as ever in NZ racing 

Lighten up!! It was said in jest because chief keeps going on and on and on about Riccarton and the facilities we have

[Doomed]

Now that I have seen the rationale behind it all, I am certain that Timaru, Oamaru and Ashburton, and all their resident trainers, will be quite happy that they have been shafted so Riccarton can have a great training and trials facility.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if those three clubs don't have a whip around, or start up a give a little page, to kick off funding for a public grandstand at Riccarton. 

They could call one of the bars the Timaru/Oamaru/Ashburton bar. The other bar could be called the Winston - I used the Provincial Growth Fund to destroy racing in the provinces so a city club could have a new training track- Peters bar.

[nomates]

8 minutes ago, Pitman said:

Lighten up!! It was said in jest because chief keeps going on and on and on about Riccarton and the facilities we have

Perhaps if you had spoken out about the state of NZ racing and the way it is being administered half as much as you come onto here and the other site to defend your position on having a great "training and trial track " , you and others in your position within NZ racing , then perhaps none of us would be having this discussion , but too many of the big names are too busy looking after their own patch . You have a voice along with those others of high profile but none of you speak out about the grave position we are in , but you come on here and give people grief , people who are just as passionate and want to see something done before it is too late , but no you just defend the precious new toy that you get to play with . Sorry but if i was in your position i wouldn't be wasting my time here , i would be holding to account those who are slowly strangling our once great industry . 

[Joe Bloggs]

8 minutes ago, nomates said:

Perhaps if you had spoken out about the state of NZ racing and the way it is being administered half as much as you come onto here and the other site to defend your position on having a great "training and trial track " , you and others in your position within NZ racing , then perhaps none of us would be having this discussion , but too many of the big names are too busy looking after their own patch . You have a voice along with those others of high profile but none of you speak out about the grave position we are in , but you come on here and give people grief , people who are just as passionate and want to see something done before it is too late , but no you just defend the precious new toy that you get to play with . Sorry but if i was in your position i wouldn't be wasting my time here , i would be holding to account those who are slowly strangling our once great industry . 

Post of the season!....nah, ....year!

[Pitman]

17 minutes ago, nomates said:

Perhaps if you had spoken out about the state of NZ racing and the way it is being administered half as much as you come onto here and the other site to defend your position on having a great "training and trial track " , you and others in your position within NZ racing , then perhaps none of us would be having this discussion , but too many of the big names are too busy looking after their own patch . You have a voice along with those others of high profile but none of you speak out about the grave position we are in , but you come on here and give people grief , people who are just as passionate and want to see something done before it is too late , but no you just defend the precious new toy that you get to play with . Sorry but if i was in your position i wouldn't be wasting my time here , i would be holding to account those who are slowly strangling our once great industry . 

That’s your view and you are entitled to it

One thing I don’t do is complain about stake money, never have

I believe the money available for feature, premier days and group and Listed racing is okay. We do have options and we do not race that many horses at low key low stakes industry days That’s our choice and our owners understand that 

No point complaining if you have no issues 

Take Ashburton last week industry day (3 runners 2 first start maidens and a R65 horse) Tomorrow great stakes feature day we have 12 runners, hopefully we may win a race

Edited September 5, 2021 by Pitman

[nomates]

1 hour ago, Pitman said:

That’s your view and you are entitled to it

One thing I don’t do is complain about stake money, never have

I believe the money available for feature, premier days and group and Listed racing is okay. We do have options and we do not race that many horses at low key low stakes industry days That’s our choice and our owners understand that 

No point complaining if you have no issues 

Take Ashburton last week industry day (3 runners 2 first start maidens and a R65 horse) Tomorrow great stakes feature day we have 12 runners, hopefully we may win a race

Ok , i appreciate your honesty , but can you not see that the industry is in major strife , and not just stakes , and that it requires participants to stand up and hold to account those that are managing the industry . They don't listen to people like me , they WILL listen to such as yourself and others that hold a position in the industry that demands that they start listening to those at the coalface . Because the small players need the big names to stand up for them when they have no voice .

Maybe i just expect people to care too much .

[Gospel of Judas]

4 hours ago, nomates said:

It is such a blase self interested comment , but that is an attitude that is rife within NZ racing ranks , if it wasn't we would hear a lot more vocalization regarding the way things are sliding .

Thing is to, he likes runing down this place on another site and then comes here, does stuff like that. Then wonder why, Racing is losing support within industry and out in general public.

[Gospel of Judas]

2 hours ago, nomates said:

Perhaps if you had spoken out about the state of NZ racing and the way it is being administered half as much as you come onto here and the other site to defend your position on having a great "training and trial track " , you and others in your position within NZ racing , then perhaps none of us would be having this discussion , but too many of the big names are too busy looking after their own patch . You have a voice along with those others of high profile but none of you speak out about the grave position we are in , but you come on here and give people grief , people who are just as passionate and want to see something done before it is too late , but no you just defend the precious new toy that you get to play with . Sorry but if i was in your position i wouldn't be wasting my time here , i would be holding to account those who are slowly strangling our once great industry . 

Self interest always been Racing biggest problem. Never been solved and never will be. Untill it is to bloody late. Then be picnic racing on AWF at Riccarton.

[nomates]

Has the bubble burst ? only 7 races on Wednesday , 3 races with only 9 runners , the other 4 have only the maximum 12 runners , with 1 race having 1 ballot . 5 of the runners in the mdn 970mtr are also accepted in the 3yo mdn 970mtrs . Not a great look . You would think with tracks still being rain affected that there would still be plenty of horses looking to utilize the A/W surface .

Or have they just run out of horses that handle the surface ? 

[Doomed]

2 hours ago, nomates said:

Has the bubble burst ? only 7 races on Wednesday , 3 races with only 9 runners , the other 4 have only the maximum 12 runners , with 1 race having 1 ballot . 5 of the runners in the mdn 970mtr are also accepted in the 3yo mdn 970mtrs . Not a great look . You would think with tracks still being rain affected that there would still be plenty of horses looking to utilize the A/W surface .

Or have they just run out of horses that handle the surface ? 

We are seeing a lot of theories (bloody expensive theories at that) not working out well at the moment. Numerous 5 and 6 horse fields at Te Rapa today prove that the problem wasn't stakes after all. 5 and 6 horses in $30,000 rating 74s, what a waste of money. And they ran 1.13 so they could hardly blame the track.

I wonder if the brains trust get together on a Monday morning and say "well that didn't work out well, what did we do wrong?"

[nomates]

10 minutes ago, Doomed said:

I wonder if the brains trust get together on a Monday morning and say "well that didn't work out well, what did we do wrong?"

There's as much chance of that happening as me winning the lotto jackpot tonight , i'll let you know how that goes .

[nomates]

11 minutes ago, Doomed said:

We are seeing a lot of theories (bloody expensive theories at that) not working out well at the moment. Numerous 5 and 6 horse fields at Te Rapa today prove that the problem wasn't stakes after all. 5 and 6 horses in $30,000 rating 74s, what a waste of money. And they ran 1.13 so they could hardly blame the track.

 

Whatever is happening it's a worry , whether trainers are simply waiting for better tracks is hard to tell .

Things might pickup but at present there does seem to be a shortage of horses , that along with tote pools appearing to be light are not good markers at the moment .

Will they change things to work with what they have , i doubt it .

[Doomed]

1 minute ago, nomates said:

Whatever is happening it's a worry , whether trainers are simply waiting for better tracks is hard to tell .

Things might pickup but at present there does seem to be a shortage of horses , that along with tote pools appearing to be light are not good markers at the moment .

Will they change things to work with what they have , i doubt it .

Trainers have never really responded logically to stakes differences. The $15,000 maidens on Saturdays have generally been smaller and worse quality than $12,000 midweekers. And the 5 horse $30,000 races show what trainers think of them.

[Chief Stipe]

34 minutes ago, Doomed said:

We are seeing a lot of theories (bloody expensive theories at that) not working out well at the moment. Numerous 5 and 6 horse fields at Te Rapa today prove that the problem wasn't stakes after all. 5 and 6 horses in $30,000 rating 74s, what a waste of money. And they ran 1.13 so they could hardly blame the track.

Again the Stakes haven't been at high enough levels in the low grades.  Horses are not feeding through or staying around long enough to fill fields further up the chain.

Invert the funnel.

[Chief Stipe]

18 minutes ago, Doomed said:

The $15,000 maidens on Saturdays have generally been smaller and worse quality than $12,000 midweekers. And the 5 horse $30,000 races show what trainers think of them.

You are making an assumption that Trainers have the horse numbers to actually think about entering.