Kopia Posted June 23, 2020 Author Share Posted June 23, 2020 On 18/06/2020 at 10:39 AM, Chief Stipe said: Which meant they needed to slash costs straight away instead they drew down the rest of the revolving credit and stopped paying creditors. And still no word on reductions to high salaries/lay offs/costs at the top of the tree etc etc... If the bells that are ringing are correct, an announcement on Wednesday may bring some more bad news for owners: the calendar for 2020-2021 will reflect Group racing to be decimated in New Zealand. Here are some stats from across all Australian racing venues in the last few months: I've just picked a few random races for examples Listed Races- $112,000, $125,000,$100,000,$85,000,$100,000,$100,000 Group 3 races- $160,000, $140,000,$160,000, $`125,000,$175,000,$175,000,$175,000 Group 2 races- $500,000, $175,000,$175,000, $160,000, Group 1 races- $350,000, $350,000, $400,000. $400,000, $400,000 $1.500,000, $500,000 SO the question is, where are NZ Group races going to sit now? And if stakemoney is reduced to the levels suggested, how can trainers justify their training fees? Vets, feed companies, horse transporters.....?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 You can't significantly change costs and you can't spend money that you haven't earned or at least not for long. Get used to reality and make your choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 17 minutes ago, Kopia said: And still no word on reductions to high salaries/lay offs/costs at the top of the tree etc etc... If the bells that are ringing are correct, an announcement on Wednesday may bring some more bad news for owners: the calendar for 2020-2021 will reflect Group racing to be decimated in New Zealand. Here are some stats from across all Australian racing venues in the last few months: I've just picked a few random races for examples Listed Races- $112,000, $125,000,$100,000,$85,000,$100,000,$100,000 Group 3 races- $160,000, $140,000,$160,000, $`125,000,$175,000,$175,000,$175,000 Group 2 races- $500,000, $175,000,$175,000, $160,000, Group 1 races- $350,000, $350,000, $400,000. $400,000, $400,000 $1.500,000, $500,000 SO the question is, where are NZ Group races going to sit now? And if stakemoney is reduced to the levels suggested, how can trainers justify their training fees? Vets, feed companies, horse transporters.....?? We have been deluding our selves for many years regarding the true worth of our black type races . Our G1's are a joke , in comparison to Aus our G1's are at best G3 , bar the Derby , and even then the form from our derby can be suspect , as this years was . As for people justifying their costs , plenty have been getting fat off the teat that is the owners supposedly bottomless pockets for many years now . Some will adjust to cater for the long term but i suspect just as many if not a lot more will work on the theory of continuing to suck as much as possible out a dying industry . Owners have been getting gauged for many years . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 28 minutes ago, curious said: You can't significantly change costs Are you talking about Owners or RITA? If the latter then in my opinion there is lots of avenues to cut costs. Some of those cuts should have been done 11 months ago. Other cuts still available to them will require some legal agility - there is one board member who has an aptitude for and experience of that. 31 minutes ago, curious said: you can't spend money that you haven't earned or at least not for long Yes - RITA have come to the end of that road with a thump. The reality is the WHOLE industry has been culpable - some parts more so than others. So arguably the WHOLE industry should suffer the pain in the short term - that means no new expensive toys that can't immediately pay their way (All Weather Tracks) and the slashing of stakes especially at the top end but all across the board. In my opinion the potential to increase revenue over and above the yearly CPI index is zero. That is we have reached the limit of the NZ market and we have no competitive global products. So when the last promise of higher stakes was made it was pie in the sky and and fiscally irresponsible. In may ways Peter's helped set that expectation with his $1 million dollar races. His AWT's should be viewed in the same light. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 7 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Are you talking about Owners or RITA? If the latter then in my opinion there is lots of avenues to cut costs. Some of those cuts should have been done 11 months ago. Other cuts still available to them will require some legal agility - there is one board member who has an aptitude for and experience of that. No I mean costs of producing the racing product. As to RITA, I doubt there are substantive cost savings available unless they shed the FOB business and costs associated with the new platform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasel Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, curious said: No I mean costs of producing the racing product. As to RITA, I doubt there are substantive cost savings available unless they shed the FOB business and costs associated with the new platform. and shed it they must. Partner with tabcorp immediately and get realistic! Edited June 23, 2020 by Weasel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bloggs Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 5 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Are you talking about Owners or RITA? If the latter then in my opinion there is lots of avenues to cut costs. Some of those cuts should have been done 11 months ago. Other cuts still available to them will require some legal agility - there is one board member who has an aptitude for and experience of that. Yes - RITA have come to the end of that road with a thump. The reality is the WHOLE industry has been culpable - some parts more so than others. So arguably the WHOLE industry should suffer the pain in the short term - that means no new expensive toys that can't immediately pay their way (All Weather Tracks) and the slashing of stakes especially at the top end but all across the board. In my opinion the potential to increase revenue over and above the yearly CPI index is zero. That is we have reached the limit of the NZ market and we have no competitive global products. So when the last promise of higher stakes was made it was pie in the sky and and fiscally irresponsible. In may ways Peter's helped set that expectation with his $1 million dollar races. His AWT's should be viewed in the same light. I question the intellect of the NZRB board, I also question Peter's intellect. Human instinct being what it is, protecting your salary is understandable, and that I fear was their MO........anyone who spruiked and promoted stake increases whilst knowing the state of the books needs locking up, and I'm not being facetious either, nothing but deadly serious. Deliberately misleading people into believing and investing in business or industry that is technically insolvent brings gaol sentences in most countries....why not NZ? 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 18 hours ago, nomates said: We have been deluding our selves for many years regarding the true worth of our black type races . Our G1's are a joke , in comparison to Aus our G1's are at best G3 , bar the Derby , and even then the form from our derby can be suspect , as this years was . As for people justifying their costs , plenty have been getting fat off the teat that is the owners supposedly bottomless pockets for many years now . Some will adjust to cater for the long term but i suspect just as many if not a lot more will work on the theory of continuing to suck as much as possible out a dying industry . Owners have been getting gauged for many years . To be fair a lot of the owners are just as much culpable for believing a lot of the hype from those on the teat. For me the entire industry needs to go back to its roots, there are too many at the top playing emperors new clothes with the industry. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noodlum Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 15 minutes ago, Huey said: To be fair a lot of the owners are just as much culpable for believing a lot of the hype from those on the teat. For me the entire industry needs to go back to its roots, there are too many at the top playing emperors new clothes with the industry. It's probably too late especially if the current mob continue down the current sloped path they are on. The degree of incline is increasing with every step they are taking in that direction. RITA has hooked into a high cost mode of operation delivering high cost products and broadcasting that their customer market doesn't want. They are killing off low cost delivery methods, provincial tracks run by volunteers, and replacing them with high cost models of operation that we cannot sustain like All Weather Tracks. 5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 11 minutes ago, Noodlum said: It's probably too late especially if the current mob continue down the current sloped path they are on. The degree of incline is increasing with every step they are taking in that direction. RITA has hooked into a high cost mode of operation delivering high cost products and broadcasting that their customer market doesn't want. They are killing off low cost delivery methods, provincial tracks run by volunteers, and replacing them with high cost models of operation that we cannot sustain like All Weather Tracks. 100% right, why any industry wouldn't make use of its roots to lower cost structure is beyond me, they are claiming that they are delivering a better product by not doing so and they are absolutely dreaming ! Of course it suits plenty of narratives in this industry, basically the industry will not have a base with which to sustain itself from within 2-3 years time and disaster is pending if the AWTs don't deliver. Saundry and NZTR have a lot to answer for regarding this senseless decisions around venues. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 34 minutes ago, Huey said: To be fair a lot of the owners are just as much culpable for believing a lot of the hype from those on the teat. For me the entire industry needs to go back to its roots, there are too many at the top playing emperors new clothes with the industry. It's always hard for new or inexperienced owners to understand what's being told to them , if someone is hyping unrealistically then it's on them . I always found being up front and not bullshitting and being realistic of a horses ability was the best path . Saying that some owners don't like being told the truth . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 13 minutes ago, Huey said: 100% right, why any industry wouldn't make use of its roots to lower cost structure is beyond me, they are claiming that they are delivering a better product by not doing so and they are absolutely dreaming ! Because RITA is dictating that the venues to reopen or continue require highly expensive broacast network equipment and connectivity to be permanently installed at a venue. This is a classic case of a solution being solved by techos who have no appreciation of cost or what the customer wants. The customer doesn't want high definition 4k or 8k Video of a race that is over in less than 120 seconds. Not only that they don't have the necessary equipment at home or the pub to watch it in that format. What's more - more than 80% of races shown on Trackside are imported and NOT broadcast in HD! Another rationale for justifying this extravagant broadcasting model is that it makes studio production cheaper and easier. Well if that is the case why is the outsourced company that provides this service housed in a flash high rent building in Parnell, Auckland? This same company has no experience with live horse race broadcasting down under. It provides the "bunker" technology for the NRL in Australia. That technology restricts the NRL from playing competition games in the provinces. Ring a bell?! I gather that RITA is signed up to very long term contracts both with this company and the network provider. In technology that is a 101 mistake to lock yourself into a technology model for 10 years. What's worse is RITA(NZRB) lent them money to set set up in the first place! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Because RITA is dictating that the venues to reopen or continue require highly expensive broacast network equipment and connectivity to be permanently installed at a venue. This is a classic case of a solution being solved by techos who have no appreciation of cost or what the customer wants. The customer doesn't want high definition 4k or 8k Video of a race that is over in less than 120 seconds. Not only that they don't have the necessary equipment at home or the pub to watch it in that format. What's more - more than 80% of races shown on Trackside are imported and NOT broadcast in HD! Another rationale for justifying this extravagant broadcasting model is that it makes studio production cheaper and easier. Well if that is the case why is the outsourced company that provides this service housed in a flash high rent building in Parnell, Auckland? This same company has no experience with live horse race broadcasting down under. It provides the "bunker" technology for the NRL in Australia. That technology restricts the NRL from playing competition games in the provinces. Ring a bell?! I gather that RITA is signed up to very long term contracts both with this company and the network provider. In technology that is a 101 mistake to lock yourself into a technology model for 10 years. What's worse is RITA(NZRB) lent them money to set set up in the first place! It's typical of them really, courses require this broadband but the catch is only certain courses were told they needed this and the others weren't even given an option for getting it installed. There are clubs out there that want to help out want to make things better want to try new things, but don't even get the opportunity. The entire industry needed a leader or a voice that could bring it all together ,to utilise all of its resources to pool all its talents and make the wheels of the industry turn , instead they have bought in people with axes to chop it all up , the resentment and disgust for the damage that will be done by this racing bill will linger around for years! Stupidly we have organisations from NZTR,Trainers assoc. Studs, big stables etc running around lauding the bill as the saviour of the industry when all it required was some sensible leadership and tough decisions to be made not just a shrinking of the status quo with an AWT thrown in. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 3 minutes ago, Huey said: It's typical of them really, courses require this broadband but the catch is only certain courses were told they needed this and the others weren't even given an option for getting it installed. There are clubs out there that want to help out want to make things better want to try new things, but don't even get the opportunity. It isn't broadband as we at home know it. They are commercial grade circuits running special protocols. I'd love to know what their circuit diversity is like and what the backup options are on raceday when there is a circuit failure. Satellite? 5 minutes ago, Huey said: Stupidly we have organisations from NZTR,Trainers assoc. Studs, big stables etc running around lauding the bill as the saviour of the industry when all it required was some sensible leadership and tough decisions to be made not just a shrinking of the status quo with an AWT thrown in. I agree wholeheartedly with your statement. The changes in my opinion will be the death knell of the industry. Again I reiterate it seems RITA and previous NZRB boards are hell bent on racing down this slope. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 38 minutes ago, Huey said: Stupidly we have organisations from NZTR,Trainers assoc. Studs, big stables etc running around lauding the bill as the saviour of the industry when all it required was some sensible leadership and tough decisions to be made not just a shrinking of the status quo with an AWT thrown in. I ask myself why ? , what do they know that we don't , because i'm convinced there are certain parties or entities within the above named that seem to be in an inner sanctum and therefor privy to certain information the rest of us plebs don't to be so positive in the changes . Either that or they all have fall back positions that they are comfortable with in the event things fall apart . Or it could all be put down to simple self interest . 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopia Posted June 24, 2020 Author Share Posted June 24, 2020 23 hours ago, nomates said: We have been deluding our selves for many years regarding the true worth of our black type races . Our G1's are a joke , in comparison to Aus our G1's are at best G3 , bar the Derby , and even then the form from our derby can be suspect , as this years was . As for people justifying their costs , plenty have been getting fat off the teat that is the owners supposedly bottomless pockets for many years now . Some will adjust to cater for the long term but i suspect just as many if not a lot more will work on the theory of continuing to suck as much as possible out a dying industry . Owners have been getting gauged for many years . Theres a sucker born every minute. However, my experience in racing horses is that owners have to have something to aspire to. Maybe its their first trials win? The first maiden win? If NZ Group races are worth no more than an average Saturday race in Melbourne/Sydney but the costs involved in having a horse in work remain constant then racing will revert to what non believers accuse it of..' a rich mans sport'. The reason the top level of racing has to be worth the effort and money, i.e. stakes, is the same reason athletes want to go to the Olympics, Rugby World Cup, climb Everest etc...we all want to be a winner, maybe get that ' 15 minutes of fame'. You'll never convince me that reducing stakes to pitiful levels in NZ will somehow help the industry. Might as well breed donkeys and race them on the beach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 7 minutes ago, Kopia said: You'll never convince me that reducing stakes to pitiful levels in NZ will somehow help the industry. Might as well breed donkeys and race them on the beach. Where do you propose the needed extra revenue will come from? Also our Group Stakes are often worth more than the Australian equivalent - what is the reasoning for that? You could reduce high end stakes by 40% without affecting the quality of fields and they would still be aspirational as you infer they should be. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 33 minutes ago, Kopia said: . You'll never convince me that reducing stakes to pitiful levels in NZ will somehow help the industry. Might as well breed donkeys and race them on the beach. No that is the trouble with this industry , there are too many people involved in it that are too stubborn to see this attitude is hastening the demise of the sport. So your horse is good enough to go to Melbourne to run each week in $100k races, thats fine then go take it to Australia , I'm tired of hearing this as some kind of veiled threat owners,trainers etc make to justify propping up stakes by any means possible. I'm happy to have stakes here that are justifiable from a sustainability point of view here and stop comparing ourselves with Australia we are not for the foreseeable future going to be able to compete with them, if you've got one good enough you'd be a mug to leave it here simple, but don't think it is some kind of quasi universe to NZ racing you can just ship your horse off to and start winning races for fun. Those that are pretending they can bring that Aus stakes levels here are selling you a lie! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: It isn't broadband as we at home know it. They are commercial grade circuits running special protocols. I'd love to know what their circuit diversity is like and what the backup options are on raceday when there is a circuit failure. Satellite? I agree wholeheartedly with your statement. The changes in my opinion will be the death knell of the industry. Again I reiterate it seems RITA and previous NZRB boards are hell bent on racing down this slope. OK, but you get my drift it was more about communication than the actual product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 12 minutes ago, Kopia said: Theres a sucker born every minute. However, my experience in racing horses is that owners have to have something to aspire to. Maybe its their first trials win? The first maiden win? If NZ Group races are worth no more than an average Saturday race in Melbourne/Sydney but the costs involved in having a horse in work remain constant then racing will revert to what non believers accuse it of..' a rich mans sport'. The reason the top level of racing has to be worth the effort and money, i.e. stakes, is the same reason athletes want to go to the Olympics, Rugby World Cup, climb Everest etc...we all want to be a winner, maybe get that ' 15 minutes of fame'. You'll never convince me that reducing stakes to pitiful levels in NZ will somehow help the industry. Might as well breed donkeys and race them on the beach. Owners are eternal optimists , but more and more are becoming realists , that means in the short term we have to start getting the minimum up . The vast majority of horses will get no where near G1 level and most owners understand this . So we need to make sure there is an incentive to still want to be involved in the first instance , and then staying involved once the horse has shown that it's ability is not going to take the owner to G1 glory , and that incentive is that if you only have a fair horse you can get some sort of return to help off set the cost , something that hasn't happened for a long time . So if black type races have to take a hit in the short term to maintain and improve the minimum stakes to make sure people stay on board as owners then that's what has to happen . We can then start to re build , but there has to be a starting point . As critical as stakes are , the diminishing ownership levels are of just as great a threat for the industry . I get what your saying , but there has to be some blood spilt in the short term . The horses that are good enough will still go to Aussie to chase bigger money , but honestly how many times have we seen a horse that has won one of our G1 but go to Aus and simply not match up , in some instances not even competitive at their G3 level . We need to be realistic as to where our standard of racing measures up and stop thinking our racing is what it used to be . As for " a rich mans sport " , whatever it was , it is now , if you want to race a horse on your own , you need to be pretty comfortable , hence so much syndication now . If whatever leadership we have going forward gets it right , and it's a big if , i see no reason why NZ racing can start getting better stakes for black type races along with a more balanced structure across all levels , but in the short term i think we are going to have a lot of pain . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mumbles Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 The saying of '"Horse Racing is The Sport of Kings" seems to be more appropriate now than ever before. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 2 hours ago, nomates said: Owners are eternal optimists , but more and more are becoming realists , that means in the short term we have to start getting the minimum up . The vast majority of horses will get no where near G1 level and most owners understand this . So we need to make sure there is an incentive to still want to be involved in the first instance , and then staying involved once the horse has shown that it's ability is not going to take the owner to G1 glory , and that incentive is that if you only have a fair horse you can get some sort of return to help off set the cost , something that hasn't happened for a long time . So if black type races have to take a hit in the short term to maintain and improve the minimum stakes to make sure people stay on board as owners then that's what has to happen . We can then start to re build , but there has to be a starting point . As critical as stakes are , the diminishing ownership levels are of just as great a threat for the industry . I get what your saying , but there has to be some blood spilt in the short term . The horses that are good enough will still go to Aussie to chase bigger money , but honestly how many times have we seen a horse that has won one of our G1 but go to Aus and simply not match up , in some instances not even competitive at their G3 level . We need to be realistic as to where our standard of racing measures up and stop thinking our racing is what it used to be . As for " a rich mans sport " , whatever it was , it is now , if you want to race a horse on your own , you need to be pretty comfortable , hence so much syndication now . If whatever leadership we have going forward gets it right , and it's a big if , i see no reason why NZ racing can start getting better stakes for black type races along with a more balanced structure across all levels , but in the short term i think we are going to have a lot of pain . You are correct, the problem however is that those who are running the industry are consistently pandering to those that are selling G1 dreams at a cost, it becomes very difficult to sell those G1 dreams when the stakes are of an insignificant level, it therefore impacts on their business model and as we've seen over the past few years the industry is being manipulated to fit into that model , they aren't in the slightest worried about the bottom end and the battler and the racing bill is evidence of that. The concern is there will be too much focus on the top end and not enough on the bottom, once again evidenced by the racing bill. The trickle down theory in racing has been tried before in NZ and didn't work , I won't be surprised in the slightest to see it return again comparatively speaking. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 37 minutes ago, Huey said: You are correct, the problem however is that those who are running the industry are consistently pandering to those that are selling G1 dreams at a cost, it becomes very difficult to sell those G1 dreams when the stakes are of an insignificant level, it therefore impacts on their business model and as we've seen over the past few years the industry is being manipulated to fit into that model , they aren't in the slightest worried about the bottom end and the battler and the racing bill is evidence of that. The concern is there will be too much focus on the top end and not enough on the bottom, once again evidenced by the racing bill. The trickle down theory in racing has been tried before in NZ and didn't work , I won't be surprised in the slightest to see it return again comparatively speaking. One things for sure , whatever stakes the group races end up at , the high end breeders will fight tooth and nail to retain the status quo regarding black type races holding their status , irrespective of whether the quality of horse is of commensurate with grading . 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 12 hours ago, Huey said: You are correct, the problem however is that those who are running the industry are consistently pandering to those that are selling G1 dreams at a cost, it becomes very difficult to sell those G1 dreams when the stakes are of an insignificant level, it therefore impacts on their business model and as we've seen over the past few years the industry is being manipulated to fit into that model , they aren't in the slightest worried about the bottom end and the battler and the racing bill is evidence of that. The concern is there will be too much focus on the top end and not enough on the bottom, once again evidenced by the racing bill. The trickle down theory in racing has been tried before in NZ and didn't work , I won't be surprised in the slightest to see it return again comparatively speaking. Yep. it's been out of kilter for years, and, as said, those pandering to that model will squeal if their 'superiority' is threatened. The forbears of one of my very good owners [ H.C Greenwood ] took the famous Gloaming from Christchurch to Sydney to have his first start in the AJC Chelmsford Stakes. That would have entailed a boat trip, no mean assignment for a novice galloper - but he duly obliged. No doubt granddad had a punt too...but does anyone seriously think that such a herculean task would have been undertaken if the money and prestige had been here? NZ-ers accepted, then, that the bigger population/economy enabled better money, and also the chance of a decent bet. You have to question the intelligence - or veracity - of those who hollered recently about 'rising stakes'....however, no doubt they were able to purchase nice new yearlings on the basis of that...... 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bloggs Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 R1 Wanganui.......here in QLD the win pool held 350 bucks, across the border in NSW the win poll had 2K and change, ......wow, stakes will soar wont they? you just wait until the race fields legislation kicks in, they'll be rolling in dosh.......pay rises at HQ........you bloody beauty.....NOT.......fuckwits all........NZ's only living brain donors work in that place, Petone Casino, god alone knows where the brain recipients are.......Parnell you think?.........you'd be right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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