Old Topic on Industry Funding.

[Pitman]

I don't entirely disagree with all your comments, so how do you fix NZ Racing?

1)increase stakes

2)increase track maintenance

what else, try to be constructive, if that's possible

[LongOwner]

Increase the threshold of many vet medications and others - 

a) Caffeine is lower than an Olympic athlete but a horse weights say 5 times a runner.

b) Kentucky Derby positive - block out trainers track record - was so minute as I and no one can work out the small percentage 

c) and many others 

I do not agree or condone drug use but minute levels by miscalculations by a vet or trainer resulting in positive from very clever labs which records a reading of 0.00001% does nothing for the sport or to catch the cheats .

It just causes public mistrust towards the sport which is unfounded.

All drug level thresholds need review with input from all sides and once set then enforced .

What is a meths reading likely to be from a totally 3rd party who used a day before and pats a horse or pisses in a box?  Surely there is a level to say 3rd party contamination .

Science should help clean the sport up not overzealous enforcement officers .

 

 

[nomates]

53 minutes ago, Pitman said:

I don't entirely disagree with all your comments, so how do you fix NZ Racing?

1)increase stakes

2)increase track maintenance

what else, try to be constructive, if that's possible

Haha , a simple question , but requires a huge amount of thought and discussion . I will post some thoughts tomorrow .

[barryb]

Well firstly you can’t do either of those if you product offering is not  up to scratch.

What do all other businesses do when facing difficult times.

1) Focus on cost reduction.

2) Consolidate & Regroup.

3) Market & Rebrand.

However before doing those 3 you must acknowledge there is an issue to start with, have a desire to resolve it & stop looking in the rear view mirror.

Racing must work out what the absolute must haves are, what are nice to haves & what it can do without.

Must haves are: Quality Viewing coverage,  Superior website, innovative product offerings, integrity, skilled providers.

Nice to haves: Jumps racing, Tracks everywhere. 

Do without: Fractured approach to problems,/solutions/resolutions

Racing’s issue is it wastes far too much time on do without & nice to haves. It’s vital it has 1 unified approach or it’s doomed for all participants, it has a decreasing window of opportunity thanks to COVID to correct itself. 

 

[Gammalite]

48 minutes ago, Pitman said:

, so how do you fix NZ Racing?

best way is to work out who will lead the race , then plonk the dollars on the horse that will be trailing that said leader, (and who is in on the plan by now) and won't be giving the lead up , come hell or high water, no matter what comes at him. then possibly drift out in home straight? enabling trailing horse to whiz through to easy victory?

[Reefton]

2 hours ago, Pitman said:

I don't entirely disagree with all your comments, so how do you fix NZ Racing?

1)increase stakes

2)increase track maintenance

what else, try to be constructive, if that's possible

(1)Return to the situation where the Board Reps(for ALL Boards - NZTR TAB NZRB or whatever it is called) are elected by the clubs/stakeholders and are accountable to the Clubs/stakeholders.  I might not have always agreed with what Murray Acklin/Brian Kinley/Jack O'Donnell said or did by by hell I knew where to find them - at the next race meeting.  The current guys are faceless(although Darryl Park has put himself out there lately)  and insofar as I am aware the Chairman has been in Aussie for quite a few months(though may be commuting now with the travel bubble) 

(2)Cash up the obscenely valuable and vastly underused and under performing industry assets(ie property) and relocate to purpose built facilities.  The cash freed up will enable massive stake increases for those 'lucky' Clubs and ultimately achieve exactly what Messara saw as the necessary move in NZ racing - course rationalisation(because the small clubs could not complete on stakes).

(3)Attack the cost excesses.  Easier said than done because the TAB/NZRB  are just like Councils and Government Departments - they are not paying their own bills and accordingly don't give a stuff about what things they do or don't do cost the industry.  If M Pitman does something stupid it comes direct from his back pocket - if Dean McKenzie or his mates do something stupid it comes indirectly from M Pitman's back pocket.

 

Oh and from a personal view point MRP to fix my NZ racing could you locate me a nag as good as Winx to have a share in please.  Not much to ask is it and it would make me feel extremely positive(and you too I am sure)

 

 

[Chief Stipe]

8 hours ago, barryb said:

Must haves are: Quality Viewing coverage,  Superior website, innovative product offerings, integrity, skilled providers.

Are you talking about racing or some other industry?

No matter how hard you market and promote a crap product you will eventually lose to those who have a higher quality product being sold at a cheaper price.

The key fundamental issue in NZ racing is the quality of our race fields, the quality of our tracks and the price at which we try to sell.

[nomates]

14 hours ago, Pitman said:

I don't entirely disagree with all your comments, so how do you fix NZ Racing?

1)increase stakes

2)increase track maintenance

what else, try to be constructive, if that's possible

Well i will try to be constructive although i like to think i am always trying to be constructive in all my comments , even if others of another mind only see them as negative , plus i find it difficult to believe that listing racings ills that need fixing is actually being constructive , really just reminding us of how bad things really are and how big the job is .

Here we go , and this is the simple bit .

Stake increases 

Fix tracks 

Fix ratings

Get more young NZ's into racing , both ground staff and apprentices

Better and more pro active central management with more participant inclusion 

The calender

The programming

Black type racing

Stem the flow of tried horses sold off shore 

Start appreciating owners more , this is one of the big ones for me .

You get the idea , there's more , plenty , but put succinctly , pretty much everything .

Now the more serious question , and the one which is much harder to solve .

How do we recalibrate all these problems and get racing thriving again , because for all people want say " get positive , be positive , stay positive " , saying mantra's aren't going to solve racings ill's , and i believe racing is ill from the roots all the way to the top .

And so far i have seen nothing from anybody in this industry that wants to or has the will to make the serious changes that are required .

I will give you my thoughts on what i think the industry needs to do to get better later .

 

[Freda]

All of the above, more or less.  I'll try and be even more succinct. 

 Improve the funding arm ( TAB)

Repair code management. 

If done, much of the rest discussed would follow. 

 

[Chief Stipe]

37 minutes ago, Freda said:

All of the above, more or less.  I'll try and be even more succinct. 

 Improve the funding arm ( TAB)

Repair code management. 

If done, much of the rest discussed would follow. 

 

It won't Freda unless those on the ground such as yourself demand that those things that affect them directly are first acknowledged and then fixed.

For example the turf tracks, the course stables and yards, the security and lighting, apprentice training,  consistency in judicial decisions.  Things that make it easier for you to do your job.

Then we might start producing a horse wagering product that we can sell at a competitive price.

[nomates]

2 hours ago, Freda said:

All of the above, more or less.  I'll try and be even more succinct. 

 Improve the funding arm ( TAB)

Repair code management. 

If done, much of the rest discussed would follow. 

 

While i certainly don't disagree regarding the TAB , that part is fundementaly out of racings control , they have management issues of their own that need to be solved along with their customer service , what we can control to help the TAB improve funding is improve our product , significantly .

[nomates]

18 hours ago, Pitman said:

I don't entirely disagree with all your comments, so how do you fix NZ Racing?

1)increase stakes

2)increase track maintenance

what else, try to be constructive, if that's possible

So how do we fix NZ racing , i honestly don't know if our current model can be fixed . Making racing great again isn't a target we should be trying to achieve , well i don't think it is achievable . What i have always asked is where is the plan , for 5 years , 10 , 20, 50 + years from now , but there appears to be none , they live in the moment . But that is what you do when you can walk away and not have to worry about repercussions . No one in power is worried about leaving a legacy . But for me for racing to be relevant it is all about the future and how we see it positioned for it's participants and where it sits in the world of wagering .

IMO racing in its current form is too broken now to try and repair , and that is all it would ever be , a repair , a band aid . So first and foremost we need to set out a plan , a plan that is achieved with all and any industry participants that want to be part of the process be able to have a say . The plan has to take us into the next 50/100 and beyond . It doesn't have to put in place overnight , i would thinking 5/10 years to go through consultation and get things moving . And there will be pain , because it's not going to suit everyone , but the industry needs to support those that will be affected by any changes .

If i had full and final say i would be looking at building new racecourses for the northern district , the CD , and SI . Built with Strathayr or the best available that works better with our climate , and built with the racing product in mind , that means track is number one priority with public facilities that are adequate to start with and can be added to as and when crowds build . This is about gambling revenue , we want something that NZ'rs and overseas gamblers will bet on . 

For me that would mean building a new track anywhere in the Waikato where there is plenty of flat farmland to choose from and where the majority of the horse population is based , north of Matamata comes to mind but i'm sure there would be other options . In the CD a track is built north of Foxton where again there is plenty of flat land , and whilst i don't know the Canterbury region well enough , Reefton has stated on many occasions where a track could be built . All of these regions have satelight towns in close proximity that have tracks that can be upgraded into state of the art training tracks , with accomodation available to purchase or rent for staff .

These tracks and upgrades are funded by the sale of , Ellerslie , Te Rapa , Awapuni and Riccarton . All of these tracks are in the middle of cities and were built in a time when the citizens filled them , that is now no longer the case , all bar the biggest days are redundant of patronage and even most of those big occasions are well short of the crowds of the glory days , and as i have said this is not about regaining those glory days this is about repositioning racing as a relevant sport in the future . 

All of the 4 tracks that i have mentioned are sitting in the middle of cities and are basically surrounded by more and more housing , retirement and private and IMO wont work going into the next 50+ years . Ellerslie is a nightmare to get in and out of , plus Ellerslie for me is the home of the " HILL " , that is what makes Ellerslie special , but it is being sold so what is it going to look like in 5/10 years covered in housing , not for me sorry .

The sale of those 4 tracks should generate enough finance to set up the 3 new tracks and infrastructure , bold , maybe , mad probably many will say , but for me that is the kind of thinking that is required to secure the future of racing .

They are only my thoughts but as i have said with consultation plenty of other ideas will be thrown about and who knows where that gem that looks like an industry saver comes from , some could look at my ideas and tweek and refine them . I have found in life some of the best ideas have come from the most obscure of places or people , that is why you include everyone in the process . 

Who knows !!!

P.s. these aren't refined thoughts just broad ideas so i haven't obviously done a any in depth feasibilty , so add your ideas any questions raised can be discussed amicably . I will put down my thoughts on the other things i raised later .

pps , just read thru , sorry for the novel .

[barryb]

10 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Are you talking about racing or some other industry?

No matter how hard you market and promote a crap product you will eventually lose to those who have a higher quality product being sold at a cheaper price.

The key fundamental issue in NZ racing is the quality of our race fields, the quality of our tracks and the price at which we try to sell.

Yep I am talking about racing.

They are the minimum must haves, didnt say we have them as yet.

 

[Huey]

I'd fix it with a little bit of "vibe"!

[mikeynz]

12 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Are you talking about racing or some other industry?

No matter how hard you market and promote a crap product you will eventually lose to those who have a higher quality product being sold at a cheaper price.

The key fundamental issue in NZ racing is the quality of our race fields, the quality of our tracks and the price at which we try to sell.

Maybe it would make sense if Timaru get more Saturdays with the best horses to match the track they have and Riccarton less,it does look a better presentation with a good track.

[Freda]

14 hours ago, nomates said:

While i certainly don't disagree regarding the TAB , that part is fundementaly out of racings control , they have management issues of their own that need to be solved along with their customer service , what we can control to help the TAB improve funding is improve our product , significantly .

Well, yes, kinda... but, even 'if 'we can provide a quality product,   if that product offering is 'sold' too expensively,  the consumer [ punter ] will still go elsewhere.  As they have been for years now,  pushed aside by practices which are contra to attracting business.   Those punters won't return until - and if - they see  cheaper, competitive pricing [ even if the product has improved ].   That is purely TAB business, not up to we grassroots folk, directly....but pivotal to improving the whole mess.     The measures discussed above, all have merit, but even the release of money through cashing up assets  [ great idea ] can't remain on the positive side of the ledger forever without income , meaning betting money going forward.  

[Huey]

14 hours ago, mikeynz said:

Maybe it would make sense if Timaru get more Saturdays with the best horses to match the track they have and Riccarton less,it does look a better presentation with a good track.

Be likely to lose days to the AWT if push came to shove I'd have thought. 

What you state however is exactly the type of analysis & thinking the industry should have been doing long before the AWT came about.

Unfortunately on the racing side we simply do not have the leadership to think outside the square or even listen for that matter.

[Gospel of Judas]

Better quality stakes, better betting product, better tracks, better trackside, better management , better jockeys, improved trainers and better racing calendar.

Improve the vibe of industry be a major. Know many rich lister types , none of them care about racing. They think whole industry is suspect and fishy. Considering some scandals, can't blame them. Also know many journalists and can see why think industry needs abit of spotlight....

[aquaman]

The single most important thing that can be done is to reduce the takeout for the punter, you know, the life blood of racing. From that one single change growth can at least be given a chance. The punter is the most important cog in racing, it begins and ends with the punter. And don't give me the bullshit about owners or breeders being at the top. Until the racing industry realizes this, then everything will continue downhill, because the punter is the life blood of racing for all codes. Reduce the takeouts to be competitive with international operators, and start rebuilding the customer base, then you can start thinking all the other must do's.

[barryb]

19 minutes ago, aquaman said:

The single most important thing that can be done is to reduce the takeout for the punter, you know, the life blood of racing. From that one single change growth can at least be given a chance. The punter is the most important cog in racing, it begins and ends with the punter. And don't give me the bullshit about owners or breeders being at the top. Until the racing industry realizes this, then everything will continue downhill, because the punter is the life blood of racing for all codes. Reduce the takeouts to be competitive with international operators, and start rebuilding the customer base, then you can start thinking all the other must do's.

Correct, except they are not mutually exclusvie.

Owners make up a very significant portion of on course attendees now, they also make up a large portion of bets placed.

Rewards for owners is not recognised via the TAB, the very people who provide the product get little acknowledgement. Owners should be on some sort of loyalty system whereby freebets build up for each starter based on your % ownership. 

[mikeynz]

On 5/22/2021 at 8:50 AM, Huey said:

Be likely to lose days to the AWT if push came to shove I'd have thought. 

What you state however is exactly the type of analysis & thinking the industry should have been doing long before the AWT came about.

Unfortunately on the racing side we simply do not have the leadership to think outside the square or even listen for that matter.

The strange irony of Riccarton having a fancy,racing or training track is it wont make a scrap of difference to the grass track which probably suffers from having 3 days beatng the crap out of it to start the season off

I know nothing about racecourses but in my field I know grass suffers from being hammered in winter,some of these courses probably need a bit of TLC to help them stay in top condition so the awts probably have their place but spreading the work load through winter and spring would make a big difference,reducing some courses wont help.

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, barryb said:

Owners make up a very significant portion of on course attendees now, they also make up a large portion of bets placed.

 

I accept the first part of your statement.  Afterall you are paying shyte load of money for your hobby.  But how do you know about the latter?  I would suggest that owners are not the source of the majority of horse wagering revenue.  Far from it.

[barryb]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

I accept the first part of your statement.  Afterall you are paying shyte load of money for your hobby.  But how do you know about the latter?  I would suggest that owners are not the source of the majority of horse wagering revenue.  Far from it.

I said a large portion of bets placed, never mentioned the word majority. I think it follows that if owners make up significant numbers on course then in all likelihood they are making the bets on course in those significant numbers.

Can you explain to us what data/information you have that suggests far from it that owners are betting in any great number?. or is it just a hunch you have.

[Chief Stipe]

5 minutes ago, barryb said:

I think it follows that if owners make up significant numbers on course then in all likelihood they are making the bets on course in those significant numbers.

You would assume that it would be a significant amount of on-course betting.  But there is no longer a significant amount of on-course betting.  As a metric on-course turnover is now superfluous and it is difficult to measure.  More and more people are using their smart phone apps on-course.

10 minutes ago, barryb said:

Can you explain to us what data/information you have that suggests far from it that owners are betting in any great number?. or is it just a hunch you have.

No less or more of a hunch than you however it is easy to compare oncourse turnover versus offcourse turnover and the difference in magnitude is heavily skewed towards offcourse.  

I remember as an owner in a large syndicate that in 52 races there was only one day (NZ Oaks) where nearly the entire syndicate turned up.  The majority of the time there was only one owner present.  Also owners who do like a punt listen to their trainer and even newbies over time get very knowledgeable about the competition.  On more than one occasion the syndicate I was involved in took the TAB to the cleaners on Fixed Odds i.e. the TAB suffered a net loss in revenue.

What you are suggesting is a loyalty type programme for owners who wager but your proposal although with good intentions has a number of flaws.  For a start it would involve data sharing between the codes and the TAB regarding ownership and percentages.  As we have seen with Harness recently those records are not very accurate.  There would also be questions of data sharing and privacy.  

That aside what is the objective of your suggested loyalty programme?  In my opinion there can be only one objective and that is to increase revenue and therefore ultimately increase stakes and therefore rewards to owners.  Your proposal doesn't do that.  Essentially what it does is reduce revenue by offering discounted bets.  As others have pointed out it would be far better to competitively price the product.

It would also help if the focus was on improving the quality of the product i.e. the tracks and the race fields.  That would attract more wagering on our product and lead to more stakes to distribute.

 

 

[barryb]

28 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

 

That aside what is the objective of your suggested loyalty programme?  In my opinion there can be only one objective and that is to increase revenue and therefore ultimately increase stakes and therefore rewards to owners.  Your proposal doesn't do that.  Essentially what it does is reduce revenue by offering discounted bets.  As others have pointed out it would be far better to competitively price the product.

It would also help if the focus was on improving the quality of the product i.e. the tracks and the race fields.  That would attract more wagering on our product and lead to more stakes to distribute.

 

 

My proposal encourages owners whom are getting stiffed right now, it supports the very people who are supplying the product. You are saying that it will reduce revenue by offering discounted bets? what do you think would happen with a competitively priced product?  it provides a discount to absolutely everyone. What % of punters right now with the TAB would even know what the % is for fixed odds betting? I would has it a guess that its very tiny indeed. 

Many bookies in Aus offer owners 10% extra on winnings if they own the horse that wins, maybe this is an approach the TAB could adopt.

Edited May 24, 2021 by barryb