A free for all forum.

[mikeynz]

I reckon you are right about the chip  shop job, who cares really, lots of people do it it's just that being the pm now for some reason it seems to be a talking point, it's just a job, pays money and in all cases does develop skills, dealing with the public, handling money etc etc, in real life lots of people work in all different jobs., it don't matter, it still don't change the fact though not everyone likes her.

[mikeynz]

Real funny shit, comedy today dont compare. 14 min 50 seconds is best but all is good really.

Edited June 27, 2022 by mikeynz

[the galah]

3 hours ago, Walt said:

 

Mandates are BS now but her calls are not made retrospectively. My regret is many people refused to get vaccinated for valid reasons and concerns and lost their jobs. Some of those jobs could have been done virtually. One size fits all is never the right thing to do.....but what was confronting NZ needed action devoid of ambiguity. Context is very important.

 

Fair enough to see it that way. But why do they still enforce the mandates today when its been clear for some time that they are no longer necessary?

All they are doing is creating greater staff shortages in many jobs, including the likes of doctors and nurses.

We should have had a government who handled it like the japanese.

On their ministry of health website,where they strongly recommended getting the vaccine, they had the intelligence to highlight "no vaccination will be given without consent. Please do not force anyone in your workplace or those around you to be vaccinated and do not discriminate against those who have not been vaccinated.' This message was also prominent on prime minister fumio kishida"s website,and is the message his government has strongly reinforced.

Now that is leadership. His government still has approval ratings in the mid sixties,and you can see why.

[Brodie]

14 hours ago, Walt said:

I have a different take on the Vaccine mandates and Ardern working in a takeaway.

First off the mandate. None of us have been involved in a pandemic previously. Viruses evolve making matters tricky and potentially more dangerous as we don't know what will happen next. A leader has a responsibility to do everything possible to keep the population alive and safe. Regardless if you agree or disagree with vaccines, the scientific evidence strongly indicated the best weapon against Covid was the vaccine. What we also learned was the viral load of an unvaccinated person with Covid was higher than that of a vaccinated person. As a result, unvaccinated people were a greater risk to others including the vaccinated. In order to keep as many people safe as possible we needed to have a high percentage of the country vaccinated. To do this they needed incentives / deterrents hence the mandates. For context we need to remember it only recently became illegal to smoke cigarettes inside your vehicle with other passengers on board. The needs of the many exceed the needs of the few. Ardern did the right thing at the time for the greater good. She led the country.

Mandates are BS now but her calls are not made retrospectively. My regret is many people refused to get vaccinated for valid reasons and concerns and lost their jobs. Some of those jobs could have been done virtually. One size fits all is never the right thing to do.....but what was confronting NZ needed action devoid of ambiguity. Context is very important.

As for Ardern's role in a takeaway. It's important we see the bigger picture here or we are at risk of being misogynistic or appearing so. Did John Key have a paper run or similar as a boy? If he did would that be seen as a refection of what sort of PM he'd make many years later? Walt Disney was a writer for a Kansas newspaper but was fired for not having enough imagination....ffs.  History is full of examples where people were rubbished for their abilities to sing or act etc etc only to then become a big name in their chosen field. Ardern grew up in a rural community where jobs were likely not plentiful. As a young teenage girl she took a job in a takeaway. No sitting around looking for handouts. Not exactly an easy job either. There are a lot of things we can be highly critical of Ardern over. What she did for a few quid as a teenage girl in a rural town is not one of them.....in my opinion. My perspective may be clouded by having three daughters who all worked in the local fruit and vegie shop as teenage girls. They have all gone on to be successful including my middle daughter who is a bank manager in Sydney. 

Walt, the truth is that the Pfizer jab is not a vaccine and never will be.

The reality is that people were conned into getting it becausevthey called it a Vaccine.

If you look at the facts that have come out from Pfizer but not published on mainstream media, you would never ever have taken the toxic jabs.

The ramifications from having the toxic jabs injected have and going forward to peoples health is massive.

Why do you think that the hospitals are overrun so early this Winter?

People just do not want to admit that they have been conned, but I would put my last cent on it, that they have been.

 

 

 

[Gammalite]

Well you blokes still stuck on vaccines and bad PM apparently . no one says the horrid C word in Oz anymore. We're over it altogeather thank christ.

Talk about live in depressed state lol.. guess it's better than Ukraine or Somalia though lol.

And the Poms have smacked Blackcaps 3 - 0 in the cricket tests just finished . oh dear..... We got them 4-0 last year in Ashes so hopefully Oz can 'Smack em down ' next year in the Ashes to make up for this NZ bloodbath.

But com'on guys !!! fire up with some enthuasism. ! Cup Carnival coming up in Nov? Waller crushing the world for NZ at Royal Ascot (and with a great kiwi hoop too !! the other day. Solid Rugby win ? Commonwealth Games golds for NZ are just around the corner? 

AND Next Week brilliant kiwi director TAIKA WAITITI along with his Fab Aussie Star CHRIS HEMSWORTH are releasing the next THOR movie called 'Love and Thunder,'   Putting NZ and Aus on the MAP in Dozens of countries and in front of Millions of people around the Globe, showing how Cool and Funny and talented Kiwis and Aussies really are !!!!

[Chief Stipe]

15 hours ago, Walt said:

First off the mandate. None of us have been involved in a pandemic previously.

Incorrect.  There was a global Swine Flu pandemic in 2009.  Many lessons learnt which formed the foundation of Global Pandemic Planning.  Unfortunately those lessons and those plans were quickly dropped for Covid-19.  Although some countries like Sweden and Japan did more or less stick to the play book.  Pre-Covid-19 pandemic planning based on science showed that lockdowns don't work and cause more harm and prolong pandemics.  Also that it was extremely harmful to close schools especially when children are not a vulnerable cohort.  Evidence is now rapidly emerging that those plans were correct.

Coincidentally there was a vaccine developed for that pandemic that had dangerous outcomes i.e. GlaxoSmithKline's 'Pandemrix' vaccine.  Reports of data fudging involving that vaccine have emerged since 2009 as well as law suits.  The corollary with the Pzifer and Moderna vaccaines of the Covid-19 pandemic is frightening.

15 hours ago, Walt said:

Viruses evolve making matters tricky and potentially more dangerous as we don't know what will happen next.

We do know what happens next - naturally viruses actually evolve in a predictable way in terms of mutation relative to time.  Note I said naturally.  There is still strong evidence that the most likely origin of Covid-19 was from a genetically modified virus escaping from the Wuhan Lab.

15 hours ago, Walt said:

A leader has a responsibility to do everything possible to keep the population alive and safe. Regardless if you agree or disagree with vaccines, the scientific evidence strongly indicated the best weapon against Covid was the vaccine.

Why does a leader have "to do everything possible to keep the population alive and safe"?  If we accept that proposition then why did so many leaders dump decades of proven science and globally accepted pandemic plans?  The answer is quite clearly politics NOT keeping the population alive and safe.

As for "scientific evidence strongly" indicating that the "best weapon against Covid was the vaccine" that is demonstrably false.  There was never any evidence showing that the Pzifer and Moderna vaccines had efficacy in terms of infection and disease prevention.  That was clear when the FDA granted an EUA and is even more clear now that the data is starting to be released to the wider scientific community.  It is clear that the vaccines had zero efficacy in terms of preventing disease and death.  At the very best they may be classed as therapeutics NOT vaccines i.e. they MAY reduce the severity of Covid.

15 hours ago, Walt said:

What we also learned was the viral load of an unvaccinated person with Covid was higher than that of a vaccinated person. As a result, unvaccinated people were a greater risk to others including the vaccinated.

You really have bought the Kool Aid by the gallon.  Your statement about viral load in an unvaccinated person being higher than a vaccinated person is false!  I can list numerous papers supporting that.  Unvaccinated people were NEVER a greater risk to others including the vaccinated.  Ironically you contradict your earlier statement about the vaccine being the best weapon.

15 hours ago, Walt said:

In order to keep as many people safe as possible we needed to have a high percentage of the country vaccinated. To do this they needed incentives / deterrents hence the mandates. For context we need to remember it only recently became illegal to smoke cigarettes inside your vehicle with other passengers on board. The needs of the many exceed the needs of the few. Ardern did the right thing at the time for the greater good. She led the country.

Bollocks.  There is ZERO evidence that vaccination did ANYTHING to lesson the impact of the virus on the community.  What is evident now is that the vaccine had a cost in terms of risk versus reward.  That is there is ample evidence that supports the contention that the efficacy of the vaccine did NOT outweigh the risk of adverse reactions e.g. more damage was done from vaccination than from the supposed benefits.  Watch this space for the emerging evidence.  You will be grateful in the future to those that steadfastly refused to be vaccinated - they are the control (placebo) group that was never part of the Pzifer trials.  Studies on the unvaccinated group will show that the Pzifer vaccine was useless if not dangerous.

I personally know someone who has had 4 jabs and has had Covid TWICE!!!!!

15 hours ago, Walt said:

My regret is many people refused to get vaccinated for valid reasons and concerns and lost their jobs. Some of those jobs could have been done virtually.

Some essential workers are STILL losing jobs because they now refuse to take any more jabs of what is a useless vaccine.  When the population immunity has reached the level it has why should people lose their jobs because the refuse to get the FOURTH booster?  Where is Cindy's compassion and kindness now?  Nope she has fallen down the rabbit hole and she can't back off.  Nurses and Doctors are still being laid off because they are refusing to get the 3rd, the 4th and probably what will soon be the 5th jab.  

15 hours ago, Walt said:

As for Ardern's role in a takeaway.

The key point is she has had no business experience of any kind.  She is a career socialist politician who trained in communication.  Even then I wish someone had trained her how to speak English correctly because not only has she butchered the country she butchers the language on a daily basis!

[Brodie]

5 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Incorrect.  There was a global Swine Flu pandemic in 2009.  Many lessons learnt which formed the foundation of Global Pandemic Planning.  Unfortunately those lessons and those plans were quickly dropped.  Although some countries like Sweden and Japan did more or less stick to the play book.

Coincidentally there was a vaccine developed for that pandemic that had dangerous outcomes i.e. GlaxoSmithKline's 'Pandemrix' vaccine.  Reports of data fudging involving that vaccine have emerged since 2009 as well as law suits.  The corollary with the Pzifer and Moderna vaccaines of the Covid-19 pandemic is frightening.

We do know what happens next - naturally viruses actually evolve in a predictable way in terms of mutation relative to time.  Note I said naturally.  There is still strong evidence that the most likely origin of Covid-19 was from a genetically modified virus escaping from the Wuhan Lab.

Why does a leader have "to do everything possible to keep the population alive and safe"?  If we accept that proposition then why did so many leaders dump decades of proven science and globally accepted pandemic plans?  The answer is quite clearly politics NOT keeping the population alive and safe.

As for "scientific evidence strongly" indicating that the "best weapon against Covid was the vaccine" that is demonstrably false.  There was never any evidence showing that the Pzifer and Moderna vaccines had efficacy in terms of infection and disease prevention.  That was clear when the FDA granted an EUA and is even more clear now that the data is starting to be released to the wider scientific community.  It is clear that the vaccines had zero efficacy in terms of preventing disease and death.  At the very best they may be classed as therapeutics NOT vaccines i.e. they MAY reduce the severity of Covid.

You really have bought the Kool Aid by the gallon.  Your statement about viral load in an unvaccinated person being higher than a vaccinated person is false!  I can list numerous papers supporting that.  Unvaccinated people were NEVER a greater risk to others including the vaccinated.  Ironically you contradict your earlier statement about the vaccine being the best weapon.

Bollocks.  There is ZERO evidence that vaccination did ANYTHING to lesson the impact of the virus on the community.  What is evident now is that the vaccine had a cost in terms of risk versus reward.  That is there is ample evidence that supports the contention that the efficacy of the vaccine did NOT outweigh the risk of adverse reactions e.g. more damage was done from vaccination than from the supposed benefits.  Watch this space for the emerging evidence.  You will be grateful in the future to those that steadfastly refused to be vaccinated - they are the control (placebo) group that was never part of the Pzifer trials.  Studies on the unvaccinated group will show that the Pzifer vaccine was useless if not dangerous.

I personally know someone who has had 4 jabs and has had Covid TWICE!!!!!

Some essential workers are STILL losing jobs because they now refuse to take any more jabs of what is a useless vaccine.  When the population immunity has reached the level it has why should people lose their jobs because the refuse to get the FOURTH booster?  Where is Cindy's compassion and kindness now?  Nope she has fallen down the rabbit hole and she can't back off.  Nurses and Doctors are still being laid off because they are refusing to get the 3rd, the 4th and probably what will soon be the 5th jab.  

The key point is she has had no business experience of any kind.  She is a career socialist politician who trained in communication.  Even then I wish someone had trained her how to speak English correctly because not only has she butchered the country she butchers the language on a daily basis!

Chief, you are so correct on every point you have made.

The so called Vaccine Pfizer is having so much harm on people and even my Dr. who I hadnt seen for a couple of years, is even saying on the quiet that the Pfizer has caused major issues for his patients.

The BS in regards to Pfizer being the best protection against Covid is abhorrent and yet they still want to keep the crap going.

Dickheads still wearing masks everywhere is just crazy and you are doing damage to your respiratory system and that is a reason why hospitals are overrun.

Anthony the evil Fauci has stated previously that people didnt die of the Spanish Flu!

They died of Bacterial Pneumonia, due to wearing of masks!

And yet here we have all these people continually wearing masks so clearly with the positive tests still going on, the stupid masks do not work.

The deaths that each day record as Covid deaths are to people in their 80 and 90,s!

Maybe just maybe these people died of a thing called “old age”?

Couldnt have that cos we have to keep the numbers up!

People are just so stupid to continue to believe the total BS that we have had for years.

Tell Ardern and Bloomfield to stick their masks up their xxxxxx

[Chief Stipe]

Here is vaccine case study that I've have had close contact with.

Six people on Queen's Birthday Monday got together for a BBQ and an evening playing a very controversial game called Cards Against Humanity.

2 were unvaccinated  - one of the unvaccinated had already had Covid.  1 had had two shots (wasn't yet due for a third so presumably had alleged "immunity"), two had had 3 shots and one had had their 4th.  The person who had had 4 shots had already had Covid.  3 of the 4 vaccinated people were forced to get vaccinated to keep their jobs.  None of them were "essential workers", teachers or working in the health industry.

On the Tuesday the 2 shot person returned a positive (their partner unvaccinated had had Covid months ago and they didn't get it at the time).

On the Thursday one of the three shot and the four shot person returned positive.

On the Saturday the other unvaccinated person returned a weak positive (had tested Wednesday and was negative).  Developed mild symptoms Thursday.

On the Sunday the unvaccinated's partner returned a strong positive as did the unvaccinated person when tested a second time.

In order of seriousness of illness:

The 4 shot/2 Covid infection person was the worst - 5 days in bed and monitored by a doctor.

The 2 shot person next - 3 days in bed but didn't help recovery with drinking a bit too much red wine from day 3. 

Three shot person (partner of the four shot) - 4 days rough back to work after 7 days.

Then the three shot person - 4 days with a head cold, cough (was giving up smoking so cough couldn't have been that).  No bed rest, kept active doing gardening and long walks (but isolated).

Finally the unvaccinated person - no bed rest, kept active doing gardening and long walks (but isolated), bad head cold and minor upper respiratory tract infection.  Energy levels took a bit of a hit but after 10 days back to 100%.

OK not a scientific case study but does tell a story.  I'm betting the unvaccinated person will have developed a better immunity than the four vaccinated people.  Evidence to suggest that is the fact that the other unvaccinated person who had had Covid months ago didn't miss a beat.

As for Cards Against Humanity - well it is the biggest piss take of the PC Woke brigade that you could every imagine.  You need a broad mind.  It has been banned in the UK.  It was a damn good laugh but the uncontrolled laughing was probably the reason that the infection spread.  

Interesting that the reaction of the 4 shot person was to blame the first person to get sick because they thought that since their partner was unvaccinated then they must have been!

 

[Honestjohn]

17 hours ago, Brodie said:

Not sure I would call her fluff!

She is the most dangerous Prime Minister this country has ever had and probably ever have!

She tries to portray this “ I really care” persona and yet if you have watched her Communist Rant when she continually used the word COMRADE” you would’ve realised that she was indeed a COMMUNIST!

She is now spouting off saying that a woman should be able to do what she wants with her body in regards to this abortion being legal?????

You what????

And yet this control freak has been ramming down our throats that we all have to give up our rights to choose what we do with our body, and to have her government force everyone to be injected with Pfizer shite laden with harmful toxins???

You would have to be crazy to have ever voted for this lunatic and her easily controlled nillers!

 

I know all about her.  She is indeed dangerous.  Isn't even look at her,  she revolts me. 

Hh

[mikeynz]

3 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Well you blokes still stuck on vaccines and bad PM apparently . no one says the horrid C word in Oz anymore. We're over it altogeather thank christ.

Talk about live in depressed state lol.. guess it's better than Ukraine or Somalia though lol.

And the Poms have smacked Blackcaps 3 - 0 in the cricket tests just finished . oh dear..... We got them 4-0 last year in Ashes so hopefully Oz can 'Smack em down ' next year in the Ashes to make up for this NZ bloodbath.

But com'on guys !!! fire up with some enthuasism. ! Cup Carnival coming up in Nov? Waller crushing the world for NZ at Royal Ascot (and with a great kiwi hoop too !! the other day. Solid Rugby win ? Commonwealth Games golds for NZ are just around the corner? 

AND Next Week brilliant kiwi director TAIKA WAITITI along with his Fab Aussie Star CHRIS HEMSWORTH are releasing the next THOR movie called 'Love and Thunder,'   Putting NZ and Aus on the MAP in Dozens of countries and in front of Millions of people around the Globe, showing how Cool and Funny and talented Kiwis and Aussies really are !!!!

Strange the cricket, each match was winnable, don't think losing 3 zip reflects the teams strengths, England ain't that much better if better at all but it is what is.

i posted some videos to watch yet still some want to talk vaccines, time to move on.

Gamma havnt been on ya quiz for a couple of days, I scan down the page slowly till I find the new questions, some are simply beyond me but as I said before, I don't know everything.

[Honestjohn]

2 hours ago, mikeynz said:

Strange the cricket, each match was winnable, don't think losing 3 zip reflects the teams strengths, England ain't that much better if better at all but it is what is.

i posted some videos to watch yet still some want to talk vaccines, time to move on.

Gamma havnt been on ya quiz for a couple of days, I scan down the page slowly till I find the new questions, some are simply beyond me but as I said before, I don't know everything.

 

Cricket and winter doesn't interest me in the slightest. I like the history channel ATM. 

 

Hj

[Walt]

4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Incorrect.  There was a global Swine Flu pandemic in 2009.  Many lessons learnt which formed the foundation of Global Pandemic Planning.  Unfortunately those lessons and those plans were quickly dropped for Covid-19.  Although some countries like Sweden and Japan did more or less stick to the play book.  Pre-Covid-19 pandemic planning based on science showed that lockdowns don't work and cause more harm and prolong pandemics.  Also that it was extremely harmful to close schools especially when children are not a vulnerable cohort.  Evidence is now rapidly emerging that those plans were correct.

Coincidentally there was a vaccine developed for that pandemic that had dangerous outcomes i.e. GlaxoSmithKline's 'Pandemrix' vaccine.  Reports of data fudging involving that vaccine have emerged since 2009 as well as law suits.  The corollary with the Pzifer and Moderna vaccaines of the Covid-19 pandemic is frightening.

We do know what happens next - naturally viruses actually evolve in a predictable way in terms of mutation relative to time.  Note I said naturally.  There is still strong evidence that the most likely origin of Covid-19 was from a genetically modified virus escaping from the Wuhan Lab.

Why does a leader have "to do everything possible to keep the population alive and safe"?  If we accept that proposition then why did so many leaders dump decades of proven science and globally accepted pandemic plans?  The answer is quite clearly politics NOT keeping the population alive and safe.

As for "scientific evidence strongly" indicating that the "best weapon against Covid was the vaccine" that is demonstrably false.  There was never any evidence showing that the Pzifer and Moderna vaccines had efficacy in terms of infection and disease prevention.  That was clear when the FDA granted an EUA and is even more clear now that the data is starting to be released to the wider scientific community.  It is clear that the vaccines had zero efficacy in terms of preventing disease and death.  At the very best they may be classed as therapeutics NOT vaccines i.e. they MAY reduce the severity of Covid.

You really have bought the Kool Aid by the gallon.  Your statement about viral load in an unvaccinated person being higher than a vaccinated person is false!  I can list numerous papers supporting that.  Unvaccinated people were NEVER a greater risk to others including the vaccinated.  Ironically you contradict your earlier statement about the vaccine being the best weapon.

Bollocks.  There is ZERO evidence that vaccination did ANYTHING to lesson the impact of the virus on the community.  What is evident now is that the vaccine had a cost in terms of risk versus reward.  That is there is ample evidence that supports the contention that the efficacy of the vaccine did NOT outweigh the risk of adverse reactions e.g. more damage was done from vaccination than from the supposed benefits.  Watch this space for the emerging evidence.  You will be grateful in the future to those that steadfastly refused to be vaccinated - they are the control (placebo) group that was never part of the Pzifer trials.  Studies on the unvaccinated group will show that the Pzifer vaccine was useless if not dangerous.

I personally know someone who has had 4 jabs and has had Covid TWICE!!!!!

Some essential workers are STILL losing jobs because they now refuse to take any more jabs of what is a useless vaccine.  When the population immunity has reached the level it has why should people lose their jobs because the refuse to get the FOURTH booster?  Where is Cindy's compassion and kindness now?  Nope she has fallen down the rabbit hole and she can't back off.  Nurses and Doctors are still being laid off because they are refusing to get the 3rd, the 4th and probably what will soon be the 5th jab.  

The key point is she has had no business experience of any kind.  She is a career socialist politician who trained in communication.  Even then I wish someone had trained her how to speak English correctly because not only has she butchered the country she butchers the language on a daily basis!

I'm not your enemy fella.

I'm also not an Ardern supporter, in fact, I recoil when I see or hear her but I put forward a perspective that is balanced and generally respectful. The lady is obviously a smart cookie but if you feel total contempt for her you won't see that under any circumstances. When that occurs you are a real contender for being misogynistic. As a father of three daughters I far king hate that. I'm an intelligent university educated articulate man and can critique Ardern without butchering her name or ridiculing her appearance. Yes, she has prominent teeth but referring to her relentlessly in equine terms says more about the person than it does Ardern. She was ridiculed as a lowlife who would use the death of her grandmother three days before the 2017 election to gain sympathy votes. Really? Is that what we've come to in NZ? What about the possibility she loved her grandmother and was distressed at her passing? Ardern's pet cat was run over and killed outside here Auckland home. Many of us have experienced this pain. I was staggered at the amount of abuse and ridicule directed at her when that unfolded. Ardern is so contemptable she apparently deserves this. Really? I don't think so. That's not the NZ I grew up in. 

I first became interested in politics when Norman Kirk was the PM. We lived in Nelson and I met up with Bill Rowling at the Nelson races numerous times. Nice man but totally ineffective PM. When we moved to Auckland we lived at Hatfields Beach just north of Orewa. I met Rob Muldoon many times along with his wife. A lot of people hated the man but one on one I found him charming and even humourous. I've never seen the level of hatred and contempt directed at any politician in my life time that has been directed at Ardern.

Much of my disapproval of Ardern is more toward her utterly useless colleagues. In recent times I have a growing loathing of the hijacking of our language. It's very deliberate. It's happening at rocket speed without full buy in. The agenda in full swing at this time is turning a percentage of the population cold. It's divisive, guilt ridden and disrespectful.  

When we look at how Ardern came to power we need to look further than Winston Peters. National sold the myth that we had a "rock star economy". Yes, some were doing very nicely but a growing number were not. The gap between rich and poor reached record levels and National couldn't possibly care less. Just pretend it doesn't exist. Pretend there is no housing crisis and keep the immigration floodgates from China wide open. I can barely recognize the Auckland I live in now. We needed to talk about that sudden change without being labeled racist or xenophobic. 

The groundwork inviting an Ardern type Government was laid by the previous National Government. When your country move's forward you must take as many people with you as possible.....not just those that voted for you. National failed at this and so have Labour. As a result our country is now more divided than ever in my lifetime. 

You quote Swine Flu. NZ was pretty much spared the impact of Swine Flu in 2009. Less than 300,000 people died from it world wide. I recall numerous cases of the disease at the school my children attended Rangitoto College. Students returning from Mexico had contracted the disease. Schools were temporarily closed but we weren't subjected to the severe restrictions and lockdowns like we have been since 2020 hence my comment about current batch of Kiwi's not experiencing a pandemic previously. 

We can be wise after the event re lockdowns. There was compelling evidence that short sharp lockdowns can be effective. The 110 day extended Auckland lockdown was ridiculous. Bloomfield called the shots there for tag team partner Ardern to follow. They got it badly wrong. I could highlight the catalog of blunders Bloomfield made. The fact he is seen by many in almost saintly terms highlights what so many kiwis didn't know. To say we dodged bullets would be a massive understatement. 

Discussing the vaccine is time consuming and pointless. You can quote concerning stats. I could quote stats that highlight how important the vaccine was in the battle against Covid. We can go round and round and achieve zero.

I agree with you about the origins of Covid but disagree on how predictable viruses "can" be. What has unfolded with this novel corona virus has not been easy to predict. The seasonal flu virus is far more predictable in fact every season's flu vaccine is created on predictions of what strain they anticipate this winter. 

I believe politicians should stay out of pandemic management but that is partly naivety. Enormous decisions need to be made and they must come from the top. The PM is that top.

A leader has a responsibility to keep the population safe and alive. I'm unsure why you question that. To do anything but would be a gross abdication of reasonability and duty.

I far king despise how Masters of the Universe accuse anyone who doesn't share their perspective of having been drinking Ardern Kool Aid.  I don't drink anyone's Kool Aid in any area of my life. 

Re viral loads. The data has been changing since the start of this pandemic. One week we are repeatedly told by Bloomfield the efficacy of face masks was highly dubious. The next week he is mandating the wearing of them. One month we are told only symptomatic patients can spread the virus. The following month the science around the globe stated asymptomatic patients carry a much higher viral load and were responsible for over 70% of Covid spread. Is that bollocks? We had super spreader events in NZ where the source of Covid was asymptomatic. That person was shocked to learn they were the spreader and other guests stated nobody was coughing or displaying flu like symptoms. Bloomfield instructed labs to only test the samples of symptomatic people. The goalposts have been moving and evolving so what is factual one week may be deemed otherwise at a later point. 

Ignorance is not bliss. The vaccine has been the most effective weapon to this point in the Covid battle. Anyone who disagrees with that has their head firmly up a dark orifice. Over time numbers have leveled off for different reasons but that does not change the fact Vaccines have largely been effective. I say effective, not a guarantee of life or avoiding serious illness. As with any virus, the vaccine efficacy changes as the virus evolves. That aside, the most pointless discussions I've had with people in my adult life have been about vaccines. To suggest vaccines have had zero effect on serious illness and death during this pandemic highlights a staggering level of ignorance and bias. You attempting to pass that off as factual does not reflect well. 

I also have anecdotal evidence of people that are fully vaccinated but still copped Covid. So? Are they still alive? The Vaccine does not necessarily stop people from contracting Covid.  My understanding is it triggers your immune systems response so if you do contract the disease, you are far less likely to get the worst version of Covid and die. Has that worked? Absolutely yes. Has it been a complete victory? Absolutely not. 

Describing the vaccine as "useless" pretty much negates everything you say after that. Yes, people are still refusing the vaccine. Attempts are made to have them work elsewhere in the system but often that is just not possible. Looking at this ongoing issue with a patch over one eye and quoting cheery picked data does not advance the debate. My wife is a senior health professional and has had to terminate the employment of numerous nurses who refused the vaccine. A heartbreaking situation as many are not only colleagues, they are friends and still are. That aside you just can't have nurses passing on a potentially deadly virus to vulnerable patients. Do you advocate anarchy as that could so easily be the result?

My perspective on Ardern's intellect comes from successfully completing multiple post graduate degrees. I know how challenging it is to have several going at the same time. Ardern copped the leadership of Labour nine weeks before the 2017 election.  All the banners etc had the name and image of Andrew Little on them ffs. Labour were dead in the water going up against the very well oiled National Party machine desperate to retain power. Ardern not only took on that epic challenge but she did so carrying a bunch of no hopers. If not for Steven Joyce's dead cat on the table, Labour would likely not have needed Winston Peters. I compare that to successfully completing 12 Post Graduate degrees in a shortened time frame. Very few New Zealanders could achieve this. Anyone who can has the required intellect to be PM. Reaching into her young teenage years to ridicule her part time employment as your "evidence" is bottom of the barrel stuff.

I have a growing disdain for Ardern's "inclusive and kind" politics. What that appears to mean is she will force through any and all agenda's she has and you just be "kind" and accept it. Buy in not required. 

That does not change how I see her intelligence quotient.  

As for her communication skills. She made Bill English look like the most boring wallpaper you could ever find. She ran rings around him. She's terrific in a crisis and that's been proven time and again. Trouble arrives is when it's all rehearsed in front of a mirror. Hands waving everywhere and with the obligatory faux smiles and concerned looks. It's truly nauseating. 

 

[mikeynz]

Changing tack again, does anybody look skywards to spot the international space station, where I am as it stands it's going over in 5 minutes,, I like looking at the night sky,  just saying

[the galah]

2 hours ago, Walt said:

I'm not your enemy fella.

I'm also not an Ardern supporter, in fact, I recoil when I see or hear her but I put forward a perspective that is balanced and generally respectful. The lady is obviously a smart cookie but if you feel total contempt for her you won't see that under any circumstances. When that occurs you are a real contender for being misogynistic. As a father of three daughters I far king hate that. I'm an intelligent university educated articulate man and can critique Ardern without butchering her name or ridiculing her appearance. Yes, she has prominent teeth but referring to her relentlessly in equine terms says more about the person than it does Ardern. She was ridiculed as a lowlife who would use the death of her grandmother three days before the 2017 election to gain sympathy votes. Really? Is that what we've come to in NZ? What about the possibility she loved her grandmother and was distressed at her passing? Ardern's pet cat was run over and killed outside here Auckland home. Many of us have experienced this pain. I was staggered at the amount of abuse and ridicule directed at her when that unfolded. Ardern is so contemptable she apparently deserves this. Really? I don't think so. That's not the NZ I grew up in. 

I first became interested in politics when Norman Kirk was the PM. We lived in Nelson and I met up with Bill Rowling at the Nelson races numerous times. Nice man but totally ineffective PM. When we moved to Auckland we lived at Hatfields Beach just north of Orewa. I met Rob Muldoon many times along with his wife. A lot of people hated the man but one on one I found him charming and even humourous. I've never seen the level of hatred and contempt directed at any politician in my life time that has been directed at Ardern.

Much of my disapproval of Ardern is more toward her utterly useless colleagues. In recent times I have a growing loathing of the hijacking of our language. It's very deliberate. It's happening at rocket speed without full buy in. The agenda in full swing at this time is turning a percentage of the population cold. It's divisive, guilt ridden and disrespectful.  

When we look at how Ardern came to power we need to look further than Winston Peters. National sold the myth that we had a "rock star economy". Yes, some were doing very nicely but a growing number were not. The gap between rich and poor reached record levels and National couldn't possibly care less. Just pretend it doesn't exist. Pretend there is no housing crisis and keep the immigration floodgates from China wide open. I can barely recognize the Auckland I live in now. We needed to talk about that sudden change without being labeled racist or xenophobic. 

The groundwork inviting an Ardern type Government was laid by the previous National Government. When your country move's forward you must take as many people with you as possible.....not just those that voted for you. National failed at this and so have Labour. As a result our country is now more divided than ever in my lifetime. 

You quote Swine Flu. NZ was pretty much spared the impact of Swine Flu in 2009. Less than 300,000 people died from it world wide. I recall numerous cases of the disease at the school my children attended Rangitoto College. Students returning from Mexico had contracted the disease. Schools were temporarily closed but we weren't subjected to the severe restrictions and lockdowns like we have been since 2020 hence my comment about current batch of Kiwi's not experiencing a pandemic previously. 

We can be wise after the event re lockdowns. There was compelling evidence that short sharp lockdowns can be effective. The 110 day extended Auckland lockdown was ridiculous. Bloomfield called the shots there for tag team partner Ardern to follow. They got it badly wrong. I could highlight the catalog of blunders Bloomfield made. The fact he is seen by many in almost saintly terms highlights what so many kiwis didn't know. To say we dodged bullets would be a massive understatement. 

Discussing the vaccine is time consuming and pointless. You can quote concerning stats. I could quote stats that highlight how important the vaccine was in the battle against Covid. We can go round and round and achieve zero.

I agree with you about the origins of Covid but disagree on how predictable viruses "can" be. What has unfolded with this novel corona virus has not been easy to predict. The seasonal flu virus is far more predictable in fact every season's flu vaccine is created on predictions of what strain they anticipate this winter. 

I believe politicians should stay out of pandemic management but that is partly naivety. Enormous decisions need to be made and they must come from the top. The PM is that top.

A leader has a responsibility to keep the population safe and alive. I'm unsure why you question that. To do anything but would be a gross abdication of reasonability and duty.

I far king despise how Masters of the Universe accuse anyone who doesn't share their perspective of having been drinking Ardern Kool Aid.  I don't drink anyone's Kool Aid in any area of my life. 

Re viral loads. The data has been changing since the start of this pandemic. One week we are repeatedly told by Bloomfield the efficacy of face masks was highly dubious. The next week he is mandating the wearing of them. One month we are told only symptomatic patients can spread the virus. The following month the science around the globe stated asymptomatic patients carry a much higher viral load and were responsible for over 70% of Covid spread. Is that bollocks? We had super spreader events in NZ where the source of Covid was asymptomatic. That person was shocked to learn they were the spreader and other guests stated nobody was coughing or displaying flu like symptoms. Bloomfield instructed labs to only test the samples of symptomatic people. The goalposts have been moving and evolving so what is factual one week may be deemed otherwise at a later point. 

Ignorance is not bliss. The vaccine has been the most effective weapon to this point in the Covid battle. Anyone who disagrees with that has their head firmly up a dark orifice. Over time numbers have leveled off for different reasons but that does not change the fact Vaccines have largely been effective. I say effective, not a guarantee of life or avoiding serious illness. As with any virus, the vaccine efficacy changes as the virus evolves. That aside, the most pointless discussions I've had with people in my adult life have been about vaccines. To suggest vaccines have had zero effect on serious illness and death during this pandemic highlights a staggering level of ignorance and bias. You attempting to pass that off as factual does not reflect well. 

I also have anecdotal evidence of people that are fully vaccinated but still copped Covid. So? Are they still alive? The Vaccine does not necessarily stop people from contracting Covid.  My understanding is it triggers your immune systems response so if you do contract the disease, you are far less likely to get the worst version of Covid and die. Has that worked? Absolutely yes. Has it been a complete victory? Absolutely not. 

Describing the vaccine as "useless" pretty much negates everything you say after that. Yes, people are still refusing the vaccine. Attempts are made to have them work elsewhere in the system but often that is just not possible. Looking at this ongoing issue with a patch over one eye and quoting cheery picked data does not advance the debate. My wife is a senior health professional and has had to terminate the employment of numerous nurses who refused the vaccine. A heartbreaking situation as many are not only colleagues, they are friends and still are. That aside you just can't have nurses passing on a potentially deadly virus to vulnerable patients. Do you advocate anarchy as that could so easily be the result?

My perspective on Ardern's intellect comes from successfully completing multiple post graduate degrees. I know how challenging it is to have several going at the same time. Ardern copped the leadership of Labour nine weeks before the 2017 election.  All the banners etc had the name and image of Andrew Little on them ffs. Labour were dead in the water going up against the very well oiled National Party machine desperate to retain power. Ardern not only took on that epic challenge but she did so carrying a bunch of no hopers. If not for Steven Joyce's dead cat on the table, Labour would likely not have needed Winston Peters. I compare that to successfully completing 12 Post Graduate degrees in a shortened time frame. Very few New Zealanders could achieve this. Anyone who can has the required intellect to be PM. Reaching into her young teenage years to ridicule her part time employment as your "evidence" is bottom of the barrel stuff.

I have a growing disdain for Ardern's "inclusive and kind" politics. What that appears to mean is she will force through any and all agenda's she has and you just be "kind" and accept it. Buy in not required. 

That does not change how I see her intelligence quotient.  

As for her communication skills. She made Bill English look like the most boring wallpaper you could ever find. She ran rings around him. She's terrific in a crisis and that's been proven time and again. Trouble arrives is when it's all rehearsed in front of a mirror. Hands waving everywhere and with the obligatory faux smiles and concerned looks. It's truly nauseating. 

 

Good post.

Just a couple of things.  At one point you state you have "never seen the level of hatred and contempt directed a politician as it is at adern...in your lifetime."

While you've  put your finger on much of why that is so, i do think you have very much underestimated the effect of vilifying those who wanted to remain  unvaccinated.

Its not about her intellect, its not about whether people think she cares or not,people don't doubt that. Its  about how she has made us feel.Its never been about vaccines and in some ways its not even about mandates.Its about how she day after day,week after week vilified and divided fellow new zealanders. And then we all watched  on as she and her fellow politicians from both sides refused to even enter into any dialogue with the wellington protesters,despite polls showing a third of new zealanders supported them.Personally i have never viewed a politician in such a negative way and i know of several who feel the same way. 

Another thing i think relevant. We have had the message of how wonderful she is over and over again from our media.Theres an obvious disconnection there. Adern hasn't picked up on that,or if she has then she obviously cares more about whats said about her than how she makes many feel. probably a bit of both.

Edited June 28, 2022 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, mikeynz said:

Changing tack again, does anybody look skywards to spot the international space station, where I am as it stands it's going over in 5 minutes,, I like looking at the night sky,  just saying

Have you seen a SpaceX satellite chain cross the sky yet?  It's impressive.

[mikeynz]

24 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Have you seen a SpaceX satellite chain cross the sky yet?  It's impressive.

Twice, and just by chance.

I imagine somewhere one can find when it's passing over.

Edited June 28, 2022 by mikeynz

[the galah]

While its a change of topic,i just watched a very interesting programme on al jazeera which was about a 7 year old boy who was a jockey on one of the poorer, muslim dominated islands in indonesia. He came from a family of jockeys and first started training to be a jockey when he was 4. While his family was poor,the father no longer has to work like he did and the income from their sons riding makes their life very comfortable by the normal standards. He earns in a successful day what his father could in a month working..The horses seemed like big racey ponies and all the jockeys were small boys.The horses were owned by the wealthier on the island.The races are  popular and the racing involved gambling which in terms of the poor wealth,the turnover was quite a lot apparently. The father of the boy dreamed of his son one day joining the army if he had enough money when he grew up. Just an interesting insight into what happens around the world.People just trying to survive and using it as a chance to make life better,despite the obvious risks.

Edited June 28, 2022 by the galah

[mikeynz]

4 minutes ago, the galah said:

While its a change of topic,i just watched a very interesting programme on al jazeera which was about a 7 year old boy who was a jockey on one of the poorer, muslim dominated islands in indonesia. He came from a family of jockeys and first started training to be a jockey when he was 4. While his family was poor,the father no longer has to work like he did and the income from their sons riding makes their life very comfortable by the normal standards. He earns in a successful day what his father could in a month working..The horses seemed like big racey ponies and all the jockeys were small boys.The horses were owned by the wealthier on the island.The races are  popular and the racing involved gambling which in terms of the poor wealth,the turnover was quite a lot apparently. The father of the boy dreamed of his son one day joining the army if he had enough money when he grew up. Just an interesting insight into what happens around the world.People just trying to survive and using it as a chance to make life better,despite the obvious risks.

Joining the army, lots of Russians joined the army, interesting watching some of the you tube clips of the Russian tanks being picked off, just pawns in a dictators games but many join army's around the world for a supposed better life, it is what it is.

[the galah]

11 minutes ago, mikeynz said:

Joining the army, lots of Russians joined the army, interesting watching some of the you tube clips of the Russian tanks being picked off, just pawns in a dictators games but many join army's around the world for a supposed better life, it is what it is.

Depends which channel you watch as to what propaganda you see.No matter whatever you think of the russians,they are there and they aren't going away. Obviously the russians felt the zelensky led government was  trying to remove the russian influence and history. For example they cited what was being taught in schools.So much more to it all than just security. If zelensky was such a great leader ,why has his country ended up as it has.All seems so pointless,yet the US seem happy to bankroll it all and keep it going.While that happens who's going to compromise.

[Brodie]

Walt, From your posts, you come across as a very educated person.

You made a lot of points, and some I agree with and some I do not!

I am only going to make 2 points which I have previously!

Ardern does deserve all the abuse and more that she gets from the public now, as she is the most despised Prime Minister of NZ ever.

She has caused irreparable damage to the citizens of NZ in many many ways!

The second point is that the Pfizer toxic jabs has never been a VACCINE despite it being described as such!

The evidence that the Court enforced Pfizer to produce in small amounts has proven that the Pfizer vaccine has more  bad effects on humans than positive.

The effects of the jabs have caused huge medical conditions to the recipients since the jabs and will do so in the future!

Walt, you are just one of the many millions that just will not believe that you have been conned by the BS media, under the control of the evil Ardern.

At the end of the day we can  believe what we want however I am more than comfortable knowing I am walking around as a Pureblood and without having to worry about having damage to my health.

Why anyone would believe the BS from Ardern and co when everything that she has done has been a total failure.

She has enough issues here in NZ but he has done a runner and wants to be in the limelight overseas “Look at effing me”.

Walt, she is the worst thing to have ever happened to NZ and kt defies any logic why anyone left in NZ actually think she is has done good?????

 

 

 

 

[Walt]

7 hours ago, Brodie said:

Walt, From your posts, you come across as a very educated person.

You made a lot of points, and some I agree with and some I do not!

I am only going to make 2 points which I have previously!

Ardern does deserve all the abuse and more that she gets from the public now, as she is the most despised Prime Minister of NZ ever.

She has caused irreparable damage to the citizens of NZ in many many ways!

The second point is that the Pfizer toxic jabs has never been a VACCINE despite it being described as such!

The evidence that the Court enforced Pfizer to produce in small amounts has proven that the Pfizer vaccine has more  bad effects on humans than positive.

The effects of the jabs have caused huge medical conditions to the recipients since the jabs and will do so in the future!

Walt, you are just one of the many millions that just will not believe that you have been conned by the BS media, under the control of the evil Ardern.

At the end of the day we can  believe what we want however I am more than comfortable knowing I am walking around as a Pureblood and without having to worry about having damage to my health.

Why anyone would believe the BS from Ardern and co when everything that she has done has been a total failure.

She has enough issues here in NZ but he has done a runner and wants to be in the limelight overseas “Look at effing me”.

Walt, she is the worst thing to have ever happened to NZ and kt defies any logic why anyone left in NZ actually think she is has done good?????

 

 

 

 

Brodie,

I enjoy your input even when I disagree with it. Same with The Galah. We can share our differing perspectives but remain respectful. I've read many posts online about all types of issues and one universal truth you can't escape from is that most people say things online they wouldn't have the bottle to repeat offline. You and Galah seem authentic to me which I value.

With that being said, I don't believe Ardern deserves abuse. She does however deserve to be voted out. Not because of the pandemic management but because she has an outstanding record ....of not getting the job done. Where do we start there? The list of epic fails is enormous. If we settle for that, we deserve everything that follows. Her "cabinet team" are collectively and individually without doubt the worst we have ever seen. I think Chris Hipkins and Ayesha Verrall are the only exceptions. The rest are far king hopeless.  

The major concern is the alternative. National are total shit at this time led by a man I trust less that a $2 Shop Gold Rolex Watch. 

I'm in favour of better health outcomes for Maori but context and perspective has been lost there. Here's two examples. Due to poor health outcomes in the area of breast cancer, they have lifted Maori who were at the lower end of the waiting list to the top end. They were at the lower end due to the time they sought care. Zero to do with the system disadvantaging Maori. The problem this has created is non Maori (the majority) in need of urgent treatment are now been shunted down the waiting list with all the implications there for no other reason than the fact they are not Maori. How and why is that acceptable?

Earlier in the pandemic my folks in their 80's so a higher risk of death from / with Covid went to their local semi-rural pharmacy to receive their vaccination jabs. They were pleased to see nobody waiting in line but the pharmacist very regrettably declined them. My parents were told they were under instruction to only prioritize Maori at that time. Can you imagine the shitstorm if an elderly Maori couple were declined and told it was due to them not being white? Any system that allows / encourages this is a broken system. 

The names of our cities are changing from the names we have always known to Maori names. Even the name of our country is being hijacked. We are being brainwashed into not using the all important word "family". This is being done like it or not and at rocket speed. If only they had put as much priority on health and housing that have fallen through the floor under their watch. 

It has a certain feel about it. This Government know their days on the top floor are numbered so they are attempting to urgently create a new New Zealand where the minorities rule. If you dislike it, you're a racist dinosaur. This type of action is the opposite of what they intended. It's divisive not inclusive. The changes unfolding could have been achieved over decades without guilt trips and with buy-in had they cared more about our country and all it's people than they do about their fast tracked agenda. 

Here's my VERY confident prediction. The all favoured minorities will not get Labour over the line in 2023. We are going to see a year of this clueless lot trying to win over the majority. They will especially work on housing and health pumping billions into both portfolio's. Not because they give a flying toss about you but simply because of self preservation. They will be desperate to retain power in 2023 and cause more damage with their agenda's. They just can't get over the line with the status quo and they know it. They turn their back on you......until they need you. Is there any wonder why so many of us are cynical. 

[Chief Stipe]

15 hours ago, Walt said:

You quote Swine Flu. NZ was pretty much spared the impact of Swine Flu in 2009.

It's estimated 800,000 New Zealander's were infected.  It was declared a global pandemic by WHO.  The point I made was that you posted "we had never experienced a pandemic before" which was incorrect.

The other point I made was that leading up to 2009 global pandemic planning based on science was undertaken.  NZ was a party to that.  During the 2009 pandemic NZ upped the level of planning and continued this activity for the next few years.  When Covid-19 came along everyone seemed to have a memory lapse and the whole process was captured by the academic elite and political ideology.

15 hours ago, Walt said:

We can be wise after the event re lockdowns. There was compelling evidence that short sharp lockdowns can be effective.

We were wise BEFORE the event.  We dropped the plan.  Instead the NZ Government bought into the Fortress New Zealand bullshit of the frauds Michael Baker and Nick Wilson et al.  Plus the unqualified (in terms of epidemiology/virology) modellers.  The only justifiable argument for closing the border and locking down was to buy time to activate the pandemic plan.

15 hours ago, Walt said:

Re viral loads. The data has been changing since the start of this pandemic.

What data?  You never provide any evidence.  You just repeat what we hear from the shills.  

15 hours ago, Walt said:

One week we are repeatedly told by Bloomfield the efficacy of face masks was highly dubious.

He actually got that right.  However in my eyes his credibility went completely out the window when on national Television he labelled Ivermectin a horse dewormer.  Aside from the fact it isn't used that much on horses it is the most prescribed drug to humans in history.  Billions have taken it and millions of lives have been saved by preventing a number of parasitic illnesses.  Certainly 100's of millions quality of life has been improved significantly.  Now I'm neutral on its effect on Covid-19.  I have seen good scientific evidence that shows it is effective but my view was if it showed anti-viral properties (they've know for decades that it does have these properties - there is some relationship between parasites and the viruses they carry), was proven safe for human use and cost only cents per dose then why not use it.

15 hours ago, Walt said:

The following month the science around the globe stated asymptomatic patients carry a much higher viral load and were responsible for over 70% of Covid spread. Is that bollocks?

It isn't correct.  I'm happy to list the science if you wish.

15 hours ago, Walt said:

The vaccine has been the most effective weapon to this point in the Covid battle.

It hasn't been.  That's the point.  The initial trial data that we see now and real world data shows that the vaccine was no more effective than doing nothing.  Happy to post that science.  Pzifer knew that and should be held to account for fraud.  I'm guessing that when the court cases emerge that damages against Pzifer would far surpass their previous world record for pharmaceutical fraud.  Data doesn't lie - all you can do is hide it.  But you can't hide it forever.

15 hours ago, Walt said:

Describing the vaccine as "useless" pretty much negates everything you say after that. Yes, people are still refusing the vaccine. Attempts are made to have them work elsewhere in the system but often that is just not possible. Looking at this ongoing issue with a patch over one eye and quoting cheery picked data does not advance the debate. My wife is a senior health professional and has had to terminate the employment of numerous nurses who refused the vaccine. A heartbreaking situation as many are not only colleagues, they are friends and still are. That aside you just can't have nurses passing on a potentially deadly virus to vulnerable patients. Do you advocate anarchy as that could so easily be the result?

I haven't cherry picked ANY data.  There is no evidence that an unvaccinated Nurse is more prone to passing on a potentially deadly disease than a vaccinated Nurse.  NONE!  The current pandemic is a pandemic of the vaccinated!!!!!  

That aside why aren't unvaccinated Nurses and Doctors allowed to work in their own practices?  Why can't they advertise they are unvaccinated?  My neighbour was vaccinated by an unvaccinated Doctor.  He wanted to continue using that Doctor but the Doctor was deregistered.  Is that right?

15 hours ago, Walt said:

To suggest vaccines have had zero effect on serious illness and death during this pandemic highlights a staggering level of ignorance and bias. You attempting to pass that off as factual does not reflect well.

I assure I'm not ignorant of biased.  I researched the crap out of the Pzifer vaccine.  I do not adhere to the wacky conspiracy theories that some are pushing.  I based my decisions purely on an assessment of my risk of serious illness and the efficacy of the Pzifer vaccine.  I determined from looking at the science and the data that I was potentially more at risk by being vaccinated. 

As yet you still haven't posted any data or references to support your view.  What I have seen so far is the parroting of the party line.  Who is being ignorant?

16 hours ago, Walt said:

I also have anecdotal evidence of people that are fully vaccinated but still copped Covid. So? Are they still alive? The Vaccine does not necessarily stop people from contracting Covid.  My understanding is it triggers your immune systems response so if you do contract the disease, you are far less likely to get the worst version of Covid and die. Has that worked? Absolutely yes. Has it been a complete victory? Absolutely not. 

Again what you are saying ISN'T backed up by science nor the data.  The vaccine appears not to trigger the immune system for long - hence 4 shots and soon to be 5.  I understand NZ is contracted to 7!!!  What sort of vaccine is that?  It is no more then a temporary therapeutic that comes with adverse reaction risk.  There is emerging data that shows it may actually seriously inhibit the immune response hence more vaccinated people having multiple infections than unvaccinated.

Has it worked in reducing the impact of Covid-19?  Absolutely NO.  Show me the evidence that it has.

16 hours ago, Walt said:

Discussing the vaccine is time consuming and pointless. You can quote concerning stats. I could quote stats that highlight how important the vaccine was in the battle against Covid. We can go round and round and achieve zero.

No we can follow the scientific method and dialectic learning and get to the truth.  That is way better than zero.  However you are not willing to debate.  The corollary with the Climate Change debate is frightening.  

[Chief Stipe]

The Flu vaccine, although not particularly effective, has been in use for decades now.  Influenza supposedly kills 700 to 1000 people a year even with a widespread vaccination programme for the "vulnerable".

@Walt what about these questions:  

1. Why isn't it mandatory for ALL Nurses and Doctors to be vaccinated against the Flu?  I haven't heard of any Doctors being deregistered because they didn't get the Flu jab.
2. Why isn't the Flu vaccine FREE for everyone and not just the "vulnerable"?  Afterall using Covid logic the unvaccinated could harm everyone else.  
3. Why am I not eligible for a free vaccine when if I was Maori or Pasifika over 55 I would be?  Why do I have to wait another 10 years?

 

[mikeynz]

Still going on about vaccines it seems, on a positive, despite it being the dead of winter, seeing Serina Williams beaten in round 1 at Wimbledon makes it seem like a summers day, beaten on the court and with a mouth like hers should be beaten off it too, good riddance.

[Walt]

50 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

The Flu vaccine, although not particularly effective, has been in use for decades now.  Influenza supposedly kills 700 to 1000 people a year even with a widespread vaccination programme for the "vulnerable".

@Walt what about these questions:  

1. Why isn't it mandatory for ALL Nurses and Doctors to be vaccinated against the Flu?  I haven't heard of any Doctors being deregistered because they didn't get the Flu jab.
2. Why isn't the Flu vaccine FREE for everyone and not just the "vulnerable"?  Afterall using Covid logic the unvaccinated could harm everyone else.  
3. Why am I not eligible for a free vaccine when if I was Maori or Pasifika over 55 I would be?  Why do I have to wait another 10 years?

 

My posts are plenty long enough as it is without adding known scientific evidence to them. It's my contention that for every piece of evidence pointing to alleged facts on one side there is an equal amount or more on the other side. It's been my experience that all it achieves to keep tabling them is to go round and round and not advance the contentious debate one iota. That is the main reason I don't routinely present any. I also don't buy in to the logic of others one direction or another to form my own conclusions. This is an aspect I have in common with science. 

I'm unsure what your medical or scientific background is Chief. Mine is virtually nil apart from having an open mind, an avid reader and being fascinated by both medicine and science. What I have noticed in the recent years is an astonishing situation that has arisen where big numbers of people with no scientific or medical background whatsoever are absolutely convinced they know more about the subject matter than the professionals that have devoted decades of their career to. These people are referred to as "expert-novices". You'll note they are invariably absolutely certain they couldn't possibly be wrong. 

A & E Departments at Hospitals have more than their fair share of patients that self diagnose courtesy of Google and actually advise the experts how to treat them. They even argue with the medical staff when their diagnosis / prognosis is different to theirs. It's farcical but welcome to 2022. 

Re boosters etc. I agree it's not a good look when you need to keep going back for another jab but a big part of the problem here has been how the vaccine has been sold to you by politicians and the bullshit words used. Almost every vaccine given will drop in efficacy as time passes. Descriptions such as "fully vaccinated" are very misleading. It should read "fully vaccinated for now". This is especially so when you are dealing with a rabidly evolving virus. If we lived in a permanent state of Winter, we'd need flu boosters several times a year.  It's highly probable that in 5 years time we will be up to booster number 20 being required to increase your protection. Despite me being pro vaccination, I'm very much against boosters being mandated. 

Context in this fascinating discussion is always important. Decisions must be made at the time given the evidence presented. Those making the big calls don't have the luxury of being retrospective. Very easy making those calls akin to tipping out yesterdays winners tomorrow. 

Chief, I feel confident you've read or heard the quote from Teddy Roosevelt called "The Man In The Arena"...

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”