Police Raid Stables?? Oh Dear

[Gavin]

10 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

I disagree.  If they knew just one race was fixed and had evidence for that increasing the quantum of evidence by allowing them to continue to commit an alleged crime in my opinion is totally inadequate.  What if they had charged them straight away, hauled them over the coals and win or lose the prosecution at least they would have sent a strong message and probably have nipped the errant behaviour in the bud.  A subsequent 18 month investigation is indeed toothless.

I think the old bill did the right thing Stipe. It's a big deal to set up phone taps and surveillance etc. One incident of highly dubious conduct may be defended but it's virtually impossible to defend a long term pattern of that conduct, especially if you've gathered compelling evidence. 

The confidence of punters will be be rocked by allegations of race fixing. Over the years I've seen hundreds of races that I considered dubious. What invariably went hand and hand with that were tote movements that matched the questionable actions or lack of by drivers. Now, every time certain drivers hand up to family members or similar, punters will turn cold. Every time there is a betting plunge, punters will be questioning if a fix is underway. Racing and betting is good but it's not that good. Punters will feel robbed and eventually walk away.

The ONLY way the authorities can have a positive result here and restore confidence is by a life ban for "anyone" regardless of who they are if they have been convicted of race fixing. No grey areas. Gone. The integrity of the industry is paramount. 

[the galah]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

,when yoiI disagree.  If they knew just one race was fixed and had evidence for that increasing the quantum of evidence by allowing them to continue to commit an alleged crime in my opinion is totally inadequate.  What if they had charged them straight away, hauled them over the coals and win or lose the prosecution at least they would have sent a strong message and probably have nipped the errant behaviour in the bud.  A subsequent 18 month investigation is indeed toothless.

is a similar analogy for your thinking  to use the example of the police having knowledge of someone having possession of stolen car parts,when they are aware of a recent spate of car thefts. Your way of thinking would have those in possession of the stolen property arrested and dealt with,whereas the polices way of dealing with it would be to build evidence to find out everyone involved, from the stealing of cars to those organizing and receiving the proceeds from the car theft ring. and with any bit players caught up along the way.                Criticising the police,on this occasion, seems  very unwarranted. 

Edited September 5, 2018 by the galah

[Double R]

This is not good for our sport, but time will uncork the events that have brought this to a head. The wound will be very big, and when we may look back in a few years,  it may have been the realignment and shakeup that the sport was looking for. Right now, I am hanging in there, and in fact are taking three new people along to Cambridge tonight to experience a night out at the trots.

Cheers.

Robert.

 

 

[JasonMc]

6 hours ago, Yankiwi said:

On what basis do you claim that there is not enough evidence in the Cole case to charge anyone?

 

as I said its only my opinion but if there was enough evidence would charges have been laid?

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

is a similar analogy for your thinking  to use the example of the police having knowledge of someone having possession of stolen car parts,when they are aware of a recent spate of car thefts. Your way of thinking would have those in possession of the stolen property arrested and dealt with,whereas the polices way of dealing with it would be to build evidence to find out everyone involved, from the stealing of cars to those organizing and receiving the proceeds from the car theft ring. and with any bit players caught up along the way.                Criticising the police,on this occasion, seems  very unwarranted. 

No I think the situation is different.  Was the initial investigation set up to find Class B Drug use or to investigate possible race fixing?  Or both?  I suspect the drug use and supply was a bonus and wouldn't have been known when they first suspected race fixing.  

Now with the race fixing they are now talking at least 10 races.  To fix a race in harness racing I would imagine is very hard to do.  Ok so a driver hands up the lead to a better horse.  If that driver contested the lead and it become a match race then the same driver would be questioned by the stipes over his choice of tactics.  I'm afraid this is going to get murky and down to interpretation - the key will be to prove actions led to financial gain.

The problem now is we are looking at races through a different conceptual lens that is what looks suspicious from a tactical viewpoint.  I'd suggest you find something in every race that looked wrong or odd but could just as easily be tactical mistakes.

[Brodie]

Chief, you are dead right in regards to tactical mistakes and odd drives, it happens in every race and that is one of the beauty’s Of Harness Racing!

If it all went to plan then the best horse and best driver would win everything e just about.

Word has it that Dexter is on his way back from the U.S.A.

 

[Newmarket]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

No I think the situation is different.  Was the initial investigation set up to find Class B Drug use or to investigate possible race fixing?  Or both?  I suspect the drug use and supply was a bonus and wouldn't have been known when they first suspected race fixing.  

Now with the race fixing they are now talking at least 10 races.  To fix a race in harness racing I would imagine is very hard to do.  Ok so a driver hands up the lead to a better horse.  If that driver contested the lead and it become a match race then the same driver would be questioned by the stipes over his choice of tactics.  I'm afraid this is going to get murky and down to interpretation - the key will be to prove actions led to financial gain.

The problem now is we are looking at races through a different conceptual lens that is what looks suspicious from a tactical viewpoint.  I'd suggest you find something in every race that looked wrong or odd but could just as easily be tactical mistakes.

I suppose if they have betting records it will make it easy . 

[Spatchcock]

22 minutes ago, Brodie said:

 

Word has it that Dexter is on his way back from the U.S.A.

 

Incorrect. Drove two winners overnight and has bookings for the next five days.

[Brodie]

Just now, Spatchcock said:

Incorrect. Drove two winners overnight and has bookings for the next five days.

Ok, if that is true then I have been informed wrongly!

Will be interesting to see what happens then.

[Rangatira]

2 minutes ago, Spatchcock said:

Incorrect. Drove two winners overnight and has bookings for the next five days.

i think you will find brodie means between now and christmas

[Nowornever]

40 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Chief, you are dead right in regards to tactical mistakes and odd drives, it happens in every race and that is one of the beauty’s Of Harness Racing!

If it all went to plan then the best horse and best driver would win everything e just about.

Word has it that Dexter is on his way back from the U.S.A.

 

Well he drove a couple of winners there yesterday so not sure if you are on the money with that info!

[Newmarket]

Maybe Brodies on the juice too ?

[Brodie]

2 minutes ago, Newmarket said:

Maybe Brodies on the juice too ?

Probably needs something after these shenanigans!

Brodie is always on the money, however he was informed this morning by someone that said that Dexter is on his way back!

Whether he meant he was on the plane or has made plans to come back, not sure, but don’t believe that under the circumstances that the police will let him stay over in the U.S.A. Until he wants to come back!! !

Brodie is only as good as his informants and disclaimer is that I can not be blamed for any information that I receive in good faith.

Think you will find that I am on the money though,  at the rate  things are progressing!

[the galah]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

No I think the situation is different.  Was the initial investigation set up to find Class B Drug use or to investigate possible race fixing?  Or both?  I suspect the drug use and supply was a bonus and wouldn't have been known when they first suspected race fixing.  

Now with the race fixing they are now talking at least 10 races.  To fix a race in harness racing I would imagine is very hard to do.  Ok so a driver hands up the lead to a better horse.  If that driver contested the lead and it become a match race then the same driver would be questioned by the stipes over his choice of tactics.  I'm afraid this is going to get murky and down to interpretation - the key will be to prove actions led to financial gain.

The problem now is we are looking at races through a different conceptual lens that is what looks suspicious from a tactical viewpoint.  I'd suggest you find something in every race that looked wrong or odd but could just as easily be tactical mistakes.

The discovery of drug use and supply surely is a major problem.  The fact so many high profile players are involved in that is surely of great concern. Who cares what led to its discovery. There should not be drivers driving in races where they may have recently used drugs.  Also , what does that say about their attitudes towards drug use on either human or horse.                      Yes the race fixing may get murky as you describe,however if it does involve races like the johnny white case then the waters wiil be very clear.  How did Jason teaz describe that drive on trackside-I think his words were unbelievable.If there is a cash trail  for that race then very easily confirmed on the video..         Im assuming the eamon maguire drive at forbury in 2016  was not part of this probe,but was it not the reason for the article in the Christchurch press which first raised the possibility of race fixing.         The fact that there will be many races now being questioned when in fact there was nothing untoward is to be expected.

[Chief Stipe]

Just now, the galah said:

The discovery of drug use and supply surely is a major problem.  The fact so many high profile players are involved in that is surely of great concern. Who cares what led to its discovery. There should not be drivers driving in races where they may have recently used drugs.  Also , what does that say about their attitudes towards drug use on either human or horse.                      Yes the race fixing may get murky as you describe,however if it does involve races like the johnny white case then the waters wiil be very clear.  How did Jason teaz describe that drive on trackside-I think his words were unbelievable.If there is a cash trail  for that race then very easily confirmed on the video..         Im assuming the eamon maguire drive at forbury in 2016  was not part of this probe,but was it not the reason for the article in the Christchurch press which first raised the possibility of race fixing.         The fact that there will be many races now being questioned when in fact there was nothing untoward is to be expected.

Yes but my point is did the drug "crimes" delay any action on the race fixing?  All well and good for Industry Management to come out and say this debacle proves that the integrity systems are working.  Clearly they haven't been.  So how long ago did the RIU become suspicious given that the Police were called in 18 months ago.  How come these license holders were not tested by the RIU as soon as they had evidence that there were drugs involved?

Instead of agreeing with Industry Management that the integrity systems are working I would say for at least the last two years (even more) the integrity systems have been woeful.  For how long have we had that dude looking at betting records?

[gee]

word going around was   the match fixing was on part of paying the drugs of  , and there could be a bigger player  in drugs world getting looked into as well 

Edited September 6, 2018 by gee

[the galah]

29 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Yes but my point is did the drug "crimes" delay any action on the race fixing?  All well and good for Industry Management to come out and say this debacle proves that the integrity systems are working.  Clearly they haven't been.  So how long ago did the RIU become suspicious given that the Police were called in 18 months ago.  How come these license holders were not tested by the RIU as soon as they had evidence that there were drugs involved?

Instead of agreeing with Industry Management that the integrity systems are working I would say for at least the last two years (even more) the integrity systems have been woeful.  For how long have we had that dude looking at betting records?

My take is the opposite of you. In this case the RIU recognized they did not have the resources to undertake such an inquiry. The police have much greater powers and ways of gathering information.   The proof is in the ultimate outcome and that should be where the focus is.    The decision by the RIU  to pass on the case to the police has ultimately been for the betterment of the industry,.

[cichlid]

51 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Yes but my point is did the drug "crimes" delay any action on the race fixing?  All well and good for Industry Management to come out and say this debacle proves that the integrity systems are working.  Clearly they haven't been.  So how long ago did the RIU become suspicious given that the Police were called in 18 months ago.  How come these license holders were not tested by the RIU as soon as they had evidence that there were drugs involved?

Instead of agreeing with Industry Management that the integrity systems are working I would say for at least the last two years (even more) the integrity systems have been woeful.  For how long have we had that dude looking at betting records?

Chief, The R.I.U. were lacking "Integrity" from  Day One..   Cameron George, (What a Con that prick was) Ross Neal was next to fail us all and place the R.I.U. in a position that it will  Never recover from .For the  Fat Lady Glenda  to throw another shotput and state that the Industry is lucky to have this unit in place is a bloody joke.. There are  Rotton eggs within the R.I.U.  They had to pass this Investigation on as things were getting to hot for them to handle... This investigation will involve all codes and if the mighty Godber is still in the position of Total power after the dust has settled,  I'll give up drinking, betting and masturbating for good...  Let's hope we can clean the sport  up once and for all for at least  for  the decent people and familys involved, Put these 'LowLife scum out for life and get on with making Racing in N.Z. "Great Again"

[Brodie]

You can give up the first two but you shouldn’t penalise yourself for the third one , as not your fault

[Nowornever]

36 minutes ago, cichlid said:

Chief, The R.I.U. were lacking "Integrity" from  Day One..   Cameron George, (What a Con that prick was) Ross Neal was next to fail us all and place the R.I.U. in a position that it will  Never recover from .For the  Fat Lady Glenda  to throw another shotput and state that the Industry is lucky to have this unit in place is a bloody joke.. There are  Rotton eggs within the R.I.U.  They had to pass this Investigation on as things were getting to hot for them to handle... This investigation will involve all codes and if the mighty Godber is still in the position of Total power after the dust has settled,  I'll give up drinking, betting and masturbating for good...  Let's hope we can clean the sport  up once and for all for at least  for  the decent people and familys involved, Put these 'LowLife scum out for life and get on with making Racing in N.Z. "Great Again"

Sorry but the Police will do all the dirty work and clean up the industry and Godber will get a pat on the back and maybe even a medal.

[Rangatira]

2 hours ago, Newmarket said:

Maybe Brodies on the juice too ?

on something

[Newmarket]

3 hours ago, Brodie said:

Probably needs something after these shenanigans!

Brodie is always on the money, however he was informed this morning by someone that said that Dexter is on his way back!

Whether he meant he was on the plane or has made plans to come back, not sure, but don’t believe that under the circumstances that the police will let him stay over in the U.S.A. Until he wants to come back!! !

Brodie is only as good as his informants and disclaimer is that I can not be blamed for any information that I receive in good faith.

Think you will find that I am on the money though,  at the rate  things are progressing!

Talk to Chief, 

He may be able to add some sort of disclamer on all your posts??

[Brodie]

13 minutes ago, Newmarket said:

Talk to Chief, 

He may be able to add some sort of disclamer on all your posts??

Newmarket, Brodie is always on the money!

What I say and what I know is always correct!

The fact that a third party who is involved with the TAB told me that Dexter is on the way back does not make Brodie Not on the money!

I would say he will be on the way back shortly if not already!!!!

Disclaimer of course.

[Guest CrossCodes]

So according to the 'other site', Steve, a trainer from Russley is one of those arrested that was given name suppression.......I can guess from that information we can gather who that is.

[wally]

2 hours ago, Brodie said:

Newmarket, Brodie is always on the money!

What I say and what I know is always correct!

The fact that a third party who is involved with the TAB told me that Dexter is on the way back does not make Brodie Not on the money!

I would say he will be on the way back shortly if not already!!!!

Disclaimer of course.

sorry brodie it was public knowledge